I really never see this game series discussed much. Saw they had a Middle East game. Anybody have any experience and able to discuss the good and bad? Are they still active and in business? Is there an active forum that discusses the games?
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/MDEdesc.html
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 02, 2013, 07:16:27 PM
I really never see this game series discussed much. Saw they had a Middle East game. Anybody have any experience and able to discuss the good and bad? Are they still active and in business? Is there an active forum that discusses the games?
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/MDEdesc.html
Schwerpunkt is still active. I believe they are currently working on a WWII game that covers all of the ETO. Ron Dockal posts updates from time-to-time at Wargamer.
I don't have any experience with Schwerpunkt's games, but I know they are generally held in high regard.
Quote from: mirth on February 02, 2013, 07:21:29 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 02, 2013, 07:16:27 PM
I really never see this game series discussed much. Saw they had a Middle East game. Anybody have any experience and able to discuss the good and bad? Are they still active and in business? Is there an active forum that discusses the games?
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/MDEdesc.html
Schwerpunkt is still active. I believe they are currently working on a WWII game that covers all of the ETO. Ron Dockal posts updates from time-to-time at Wargamer.
I don't have any experience with Schwerpunkt's games, but I know they are generally held in high regard.
Thanks Mirth. I have really never seen this line of games in action, so not sure how good they play out and how they compare to other games like HPS and such. The middle eastern version has peaked my interest, but hesitant to jump in without any reviews or hands on knowledge of the game.....and it seems they only do mail orders which is already a strike against them:)
From what I understand it's a one man operation.
I think Ron's wife helps with the graphics, but yeah it's a very small operation.
I have middle east wars. It's a great game. the AI is very good and it is pretty deep. Once you get used to the user interface it's actually pretty easy to get around then. You have air supply, supply by sea, amphibious landings, various kinds of airstrikes and air to air action...everything you would really want. Graphics are good enough, much better than HPS games. The only requirement is that you actually have an interest in the Israeli Arab conflicts... There is also operation Desert Storm and operation cobra but you basically just steamroll the enemy if you play as the allies. There is also a hypothetical US versus Iran scenario which is very interesting. The bread-and-butter I think is the 1967 and 1973 wars...even includes nuclear weapons classic.
First time I played in 1973 as the Arabs I had pushed the Israelis back to Tel Aviv and was concentrating for a final strike when israel nuked me twice and took out my huge armored stacks ... And that's when I find out why you don't concentrate your forces like that on a modern tactical nuclear battlefield
Quote from: mikeck on February 02, 2013, 09:05:18 PM
I have middle east wars. It's a great game. the AI is very good and it is pretty deep. Once you get used to the user interface it's actually pretty easy to get around then. You have air supply, supply by sea, amphibious landings, various kinds of airstrikes and air to air action...everything you would really want. Graphics are good enough, much better than HPS games. The only requirement is that you actually have an interest in the Israeli Arab conflicts... There is also operation Desert Storm and operation cobra but you basically just steamroll the enemy if you play as the allies. There is also a hypothetical US versus Iran scenario which is very interesting. The bread-and-butter I think is the 1967 and 1973 wars...even includes nuclear weapons classic.
First time I played in 1973 as the Arabs I had pushed the Israelis back to Tel Aviv and was concentrating for a final strike when israel nuked me twice and took out my huge armored stacks ... And that's when I find out why you don't concentrate your forces like that on a modern tactical nuclear battlefield
Thanks mikeck, that sounds very interesting for sure. Does this game allow for custom made scenarios or just the ones that come with it? If so, is there a site where people host them? If there was a download option for this game, my impulse would have taken over by now and pulled the trigger:) But since mail order it gives more time to consider.
Not sure of there is an editor. Truthfully, I haven't played in awhile. It was nice to have that "ooh! It came in the mail today!! And look, a real life instruction book!" Go ahead, not sure another game has these wars covered
Quote from: mikeck on February 02, 2013, 11:51:56 PM
Not sure of there is an editor. Truthfully, I haven't played in awhile. It was nice to have that "ooh! It came in the mail today!! And look, a real life instruction book!" Go ahead, not sure another game has these wars covered
Thanks mikeck. Couple last few questions before I pull the trigger.
1) Do you know if the game is compatible with Windows 8-64 bit?
2) Are they continuing to support with updates or is it dead from that standpoint?
3) Is there long AI turn processing or pretty quick?
4) Anyway you could explain the game a little such as are there a ton of units to manage, does it represent real troop numbers, or does it just use strength points or something like that? How do you win the game? Objective points? Are there a set number of turns or do you play until you meet some kind of criteria? etc.
There is a tutorial doc at the bottom of the 'about' pages for AGW and MDE. The doc doesn't include any pix but has some gameplay info.
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/MDEdesc.html
There is a nice AAR at Wargamer.com done by Pzgndr but somehow the screenies no longer show up. :(
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 03, 2013, 08:51:02 AM
There is a tutorial doc at the bottom of the 'about' pages for AGW and MDE. The doc doesn't include any pix but has some gameplay info.
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/MDEdesc.html
There is a nice AAR at Wargamer.com done by Pzgndr but somehow the screenies no longer show up. :(
Thanks staggerwing....read that document, but doesn't really contain too much details, nor screens to go along with it like you mention. I am just really surprised I can't find any official reviews or detailed user based reviews (besides a few bullet points at their game forum at WG) on this game. If this game is actually good and fun to play, seems like a real missed opportunity by the developer not to better promote the game. Just curious, what kind of DRM/activation method does the game use, if any?
I don't have the MiddleEast game, just RGW and AGW. I have not played them in a while because I wasn't able to get them to run under Win7. I fully intend to get the games back out and solve the issue but it's on the back burner ATM. IIRC there was no DRM though I could be wrong.
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 03, 2013, 10:02:18 AM
I don't have the MiddleEast game, just RGW and AGW. I have not played them in a while because I wasn't able to get them to run under Win7. I fully intend to get the games back out and solve the issue but it's on the back burner ATM. IIRC there was no DRM though I could be wrong.
Thanks.....I wonder if your troubles with Windows 7 would be something I would likely see on Windows 8 since very similar OS under the hood....unless because the Middle East game is more modern, a better chance to work.
Quote from: mikeck on February 02, 2013, 09:05:18 PM
I have middle east wars. It's a great game. the AI is very good and it is pretty deep. Once you get used to the user interface it's actually pretty easy to get around then. You have air supply, supply by sea, amphibious landings, various kinds of airstrikes and air to air action...everything you would really want. Graphics are good enough, much better than HPS games. The only requirement is that you actually have an interest in the Israeli Arab conflicts... There is also operation Desert Storm and operation cobra but you basically just steamroll the enemy if you play as the allies. There is also a hypothetical US versus Iran scenario which is very interesting. The bread-and-butter I think is the 1967 and 1973 wars...even includes nuclear weapons classic.
First time I played in 1973 as the Arabs I had pushed the Israelis back to Tel Aviv and was concentrating for a final strike when israel nuked me twice and took out my huge armored stacks ... And that's when I find out why you don't concentrate your forces like that on a modern tactical nuclear battlefield
Great summary. Now that's a wargame!
I have an AAR of the first game Russo-German War (RGW), and while the graphics do look a bit dated, the game still plays well, and behind Decisive Campaigns series is one of my favourite Operational Wargames. I'm sure if you read through the AAR you'll get a feel for how it plays out, because I more or less document each step and decision out in full.
Turn 1 & Setup
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2598
Turn 2
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2652
Turn 3
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2795
Turn 4
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2862
Turn 5
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2932
Turn 6
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2973
Turn 7
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3062
Turn 8
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3110
Turn 9
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3133
Turn 10
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3153
Ron is working on a larger more up to date version of his WWII games, pulling together RGW and his newer Anglo-German War (AGW), he's also updating the engine to include a lot of what was in the Middle East (MDE) game, and improving on that. I did some of the database work for him placing the cities and their hex locations (mainly from the AGW side). As far as I know, Ron updates progress on the game over at his sub-forum on Wargamer.com - I'm sure someone invited him over here at some point... unless that was just me thinking someone should invite him over! :)
I vaguely remember options to sue your own AI, and I thought you could design your own scenarios, but they're text files, with a lot of data attached - not sure there is a user-friendly editor as such.
IIRC, the MDE game is the one with the most evolved version of his engine, until he releases WWIIE (World War II Europe).
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
1) Do you know if the game is compatible with Windows 8-64 bit?
I've ran it on Windows 7 64-bit fine. Haven't dabbled in Windows 8.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
2) Are they continuing to support with updates or is it dead from that standpoint?
I think a number of updates have been applied over the years, but it hasn't really been a constant flow as such. Since his engine is evolving over time, I think the newer game supercedes the older ones in terms of UI - and as such I think WWIIE will be top of the food chain when released.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
3) Is there long AI turn processing or pretty quick?
From what I remember it's fairly snappy. We're not looking at anything Paradox sized. ;)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
4) Anyway you could explain the game a little such as are there a ton of units to manage, does it represent real troop numbers, or does it just use strength points or something like that? How do you win the game? Objective points? Are there a set number of turns or do you play until you meet some kind of criteria? etc.
The combat resolution is very boardgamey, roll of dice and look up tables - that sort of thing. But what initially hooked me in, was the amount of operational variety there was, naval combat, air interdiction/supply/bombing - lots of stuff to throw in to the mix of just moving counters and hoping for good dice rolls. The unit counts were manageable, some of the scenarios get quite large.
Another aspect to the "Schwerpunkt way" was that every turn, you get a status report and it shows you all the details, and gives you a grading against what happened in History! Comparing yourself to history is a very tasty morsal at the end of each turn. I think you were scored on Victory Points for holding key positions but also on your kills and losses and how they compare with History. I think the scenarios can be set numbers of turns to play through.
Anyway, give my Crimean push a read, it should explain a lot of how the game plays out and whats what. The MDE is just more up to date tech, and a better interface :)
Thanks Spelk, I'll review the material you linked. Seems like this might be a good game. Are you able to compare this to something like Hps or toaw? Which type would you prefer?
If this was a download game I would likely already be downloading:)
Grim, this thread made me curious about why I was having trouble with AGW. It turns out that the help system which is important to playing the game, is based on the old Windows Help which is not present in Win7 (and probably not in win8 either) so I just found a replacement utility from Microsoft. I don't know if MDE has the issue also but here is the list for various versions of windows from Vista on if anyone else needs them since other legacy programs may have issues as well:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/search.aspx?q=windows+help
I might just find some time later to give AGW another whirl.
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 03, 2013, 04:03:43 PM
Grim, this thread made me curious about why I was having trouble with AGW. It turns out that the help system which is important to playing the game, is based on the old Windows Help which is not present in Win7 (and probably not in win8 either) so I just fount a replacement utility from Microsoft. I don't know if MDE will need this also but just incase here is the list for various versions of windows from Vista on if anyone else needs them since other legacy programs may have issues as well:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/search.aspx?q=windows+help
I might just find some time later to give AGW another whirl.
Thanks for the update. Seems like this would likely work on win 8 if it works on win 7. I did send a email to the developer to see if they could confirm, but haven't heard back yet.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 03, 2013, 03:52:31 PM
Are you able to compare this to something like Hps or toaw? Which type would you prefer?
I'm not experienced enough to really make a useful/balanced comparison - all I can tell you is that I have a number of HPS titles, including Panzer Campaign ones and they've never managed to grab me as the Schwerpunkt game did. I know RGW is very old, 12 or 13 years now(?), but once you've overcome/assimilated the amount of information on the chits, it plays more in the league of Decisive Campaigns.
TOAW, even with the newer graphical update, still has me baulking at the interface - if they uncouple the newer good bits from the old pixellated framework, I'd be more willing to delve into it.
I'm sorry I can't give you a more reasoned and balanced argument than "RGW just felt better to play".
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
If this was a download game I would likely already be downloading:)
Yeah, I had to import all three games! I think making the game downloadable was at the top of potential gamers lists. If you want to sell, you should get noticed to open up your audience and then get it online to maximise availability.
Looks like I'm going to have to go look at wargamer.com to check on how Ron's doing.. :)
Quote from: spelk on February 03, 2013, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 03, 2013, 03:52:31 PM
Are you able to compare this to something like Hps or toaw? Which type would you prefer?
I'm not experienced enough to really make a useful/balanced comparison - all I can tell you is that I have a number of HPS titles, including Panzer Campaign ones and they've never managed to grab me as the Schwerpunkt game did. I know RGW is very old, 12 or 13 years now(?), but once you've overcome/assimilated the amount of information on the chits, it plays more in the league of Decisive Campaigns.
TOAW, even with the newer graphical update, still has me baulking at the interface - if they uncouple the newer good bits from the old pixellated framework, I'd be more willing to delve into it.
I'm sorry I can't give you a more reasoned and balanced argument than "RGW just felt better to play".
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
If this was a download game I would likely already be downloading:)
Yeah, I had to import all three games! I think making the game downloadable was at the top of potential gamers lists. If you want to sell, you should get noticed to open up your audience and then get it online to maximise availability.
Looks like I'm going to have to go look at wargamer.com to check on how Ron's doing.. :)
Thanks again Spelk, it really does sound promising. I really like the material covered in the Middle East game so I doubt I'll be able to resist:)
Forgot to mention....
They come with a ring bound manual, and a printed colour reference card! (complete with chit stat explanations, turn phases, resolution tables and hotkeys)
Looking at the MDE one (72 pages), it does say under System Requirements (Win98/XP/2000/Vista/7) - so it should officially support at least Windows 7.
Can't advise about windows 8 or continuing support as i haven't played in a long time. Turn times were fairly quick. Units have strength points I believe but not sure about aircraft. Put it this way, I never said "geez, I really wish this game had *****" it's got everything u want
Spelk, I have to say you do an awesome job with you aar reports....really helps get a person interested in the games...thanks for sharing and I enjoyed reading them. I can see myself buying the me game in the near future. Do you know when his newest Europe game will be out?
Quote from: mikeck on February 03, 2013, 08:11:52 PM
Can't advise about windows 8 or continuing support as i haven't played in a long time. Turn times were fairly quick. Units have strength points I believe but not sure about aircraft. Put it this way, I never said "geez, I really wish this game had *****" it's got everything u want
That is a heck of an endorsement..appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.
One more thing...it is one of those games where you have to move every chit (that you want moved) but there aren't many. It's not like War in the East
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 03, 2013, 08:12:36 PM
Spelk, I have to say you do an awesome job with you aar reports....really helps get a person interested in the games...thanks for sharing and I enjoyed reading them.
Thanks for the kind words, the amount of time I've spent doing these things, to hear folks actually get something out of it, is the best reward I could wish for.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
I can see myself buying the me game in the near future. Do you know when his newest Europe game will be out?
I don't think there's been a date set as such, Ron just keeps plugging away at it. He posts status reports now and then in his Scwherpunkt sub-forum over at Wargamer.com
Here's the latest news...
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=584761
He's running playtests with a select few, so its a case of him crafting the scenario's and then getting them out to playtest. I'm hoping it is released this year sometime. Looking forward to seeing how the interface has further evolved.
While I'm at it...
Bootlegger267 did an extensive AAR in MDE on the Yom Kippur War over at Wargamer.com
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=583926
I've not been over at Wargamer.com for a long while, but I've just found the post Ron did that had some sample screenshots of his new game WWIIE in development.. so here are the teaser links..
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_a.png
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_b.png
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_c.png
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_d.png
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_e.png
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_f.png
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Saving_Moscow_1941_g.png
I have all their games and personally I think they are excellent.
The interface looks very DOS and takes a bit of getting used to - but once you do I actually think its a very clever way of running things. I have always thought right clicking a mouse to access options is very slick.
All the games come with a ton of interesting scenarios and the mechanics are very detailed in a subtle way.
The only possible negative comments I would have would be about RGW which was built before he switched to hexside rivers. I hate full hex rivers (which is why I dont play TOAW) - but thats just a pet peeve as I know others dont have a problem with it.
the only other problem with RGW for me is that it ends in 1944 - which personally for me not being able to take berlin as the russians is just one huge anti climax. Though having said that the AGW game has several scenarios depicting the later russian drives in the final year of the war.
Personally I cant wait for his full europe game - if only to play the full russian front. Knowing the game it will be the russian front game and will be much that WiTE so failed to live up to. Rons games have great strategic and tactical depth without disappearing into a minefield of barely intelligible layers of complexity.
In short - higly recommended if you like board wargames and want to play one on your computer.
I've supported Schwerpunkt since his DOS games. Ron will talk with you about games over the phone.
BTW, he's a head NASA engineer so good games DO need a rocket scientist! :)
^^ I'm sure Cap'n Darwin will agree with you :)
Quote from: Bismarck on February 04, 2013, 10:02:59 AM
I've supported Schwerpunkt since his DOS games. Ron will talk with you about games over the phone.
BTW, he's a head NASA engineer so good games DO need a rocket scientist! :)
Yeah - I have always wondered how he has a job like that and still has time to program a game.
Quote from: spelk on February 04, 2013, 04:02:29 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 03, 2013, 08:12:36 PM
Spelk, I have to say you do an awesome job with you aar reports....really helps get a person interested in the games...thanks for sharing and I enjoyed reading them.
Thanks for the kind words, the amount of time I've spent doing these things, to hear folks actually get something out of it, is the best reward I could wish for.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper
I can see myself buying the me game in the near future. Do you know when his newest Europe game will be out?
I don't think there's been a date set as such, Ron just keeps plugging away at it. He posts status reports now and then in his Scwherpunkt sub-forum over at Wargamer.com
Here's the latest news...
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=584761
He's running playtests with a select few, so its a case of him crafting the scenario's and then getting them out to playtest. I'm hoping it is released this year sometime. Looking forward to seeing how the interface has further evolved.
While I'm at it...
Bootlegger267 did an extensive AAR in MDE on the Yom Kippur War over at Wargamer.com
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=583926
Thanks for posting bootleggers aar...pretty impressive and lke how he tells the story....really interesting...just wonder why these games weren't more discuused
I have tried to like the Schwerpunkt games. But the interface makes Grigsby's War in the Pacific look easy.
As I recall, to move a piece, you first have to click a button to select the a unit's movement mode, then you have to select the unit to be moved, and then click the destination hex. Rinse and repeat. It might be okay for a small scenario, but for the larger campaign games, it's just too clunky.
The game engine is good, and the retro board game feel works well. I don't how hard it would be to buff up the game with a modern interface. But the result would be fantastic for grogs.
Michael
Quote from: DicedT on February 05, 2013, 01:17:13 PM
As I recall, to move a piece, you first have to click a button to select the a unit's movement mode, then you have to select the unit to be moved, and then click the destination hex. Rinse and repeat. It might be okay for a small scenario, but for the larger campaign games, it's just too clunky.
That sounds similar to how Pat Procter's games used to work. He did that because, being a military guy making a military wargame, he was following the structure of how orders are given. You given an order to move, then tell the units who needs to follow them.
Problem is, it's a clunky game design, even if it's an accurate sim.
Hhhmmm...that concerns me if this game is tedious to move a ton of units.
Not tedious;just allowing accuracy. Comments like that make me question if all posters here are true frogs.
Grim, it's not tedious. I have played both the 1967 and 1973 scenarios and never felt like it was tedium. I did feel that way with WitE. It is only clunky until I get used to it. Once you play a scenario, it makes sense
Here is an example: in most games, you click a unit and then tell it to attack something. In MDE, you click an enemy unit to be attacked and then select the units that wi take part in the attack. I find the latter much more realistic
Because true grogs like the historical accuracy of having to make multiple mouse clicks to move each piece. It's what Rommel did on his laptop.
Incidentally, War in the East handles multi-unit attacks through this newfangled interface technique called shift-click.
Quote from: Bismarck on February 05, 2013, 06:57:26 PM
Not tedious;just allowing accuracy. Comments like that make me question if all posters here are true frogs.
I didn't think there were many French frequenting this place.
:P
I've played all the Schwerpunkt games, and they are an evolution on the previous version, but I don't recall thinking the interface is what stood in the way. There are several types of movement, and phases of movement, but with Ron's games almost everything is out in the open, or in a right click menu for you.
The only aspect I remember being a bit quirky is the selection of units in a multiple stack - it could be done by various shift and ctrl key combinations - but in the later games he now has a side panel that shows the units and makes them available for selection there.
In combat, you start by selecting the enemy unit you want to mount an attack on, and then you include the surrounding attackers you want in the offense, then you click back on the enemy unit to execute it. I'm not quite sure how you would selectively choose units to take part in an attack, by using the Shift or Ctrl keys to cut down the number of clicks. Basically you're clicking to select.
I know War in the East allows two forms of attack (swift, and planned) with the right-click and shift-right-click, and you can have three units in a stack max.
The Decisive Campaign games, also have a similar mechanic to Schwerpunkts in designating the enemy, and then selecting the attacking units, you then just select an Attack confirmation button to make the attack (rather than click on the specific enemy again).
In fact I'm sure the Wastelands Interactive boys and all their games use a similar method.
I just read through this whole thread again and I'm really struggling with the decision to get this versus TOAW.
I like the idea of a purpose-built game to simulate the middle east. On the other hand, it's physical copy only and is going to run 50 clams with shipping. That's a lot for a fairly old game centered on one conflict...a fairly, relatively unknown game compared to WiTP for example.
I just don't know that it's that much better than TOAW considering both are operational in nature.
Its a difficult decision to make since you can't really try out a demo and see which one you like best. I prefer the Schwerpunkt games over TOAW based on how it plays.
With TOAW you have a massive scenario bank to draw upon, so in terms of amount of operational conflicts you can play through, it's probably going to give you more hours of play.
I like the simplicity in design of the Schwerpunkt titles though, and yet the operational options available to you as you play through it. There are usually 50-100+ scenarios to play in each Schwerpunkt title.
There's bound to be Middle East scenarios available for TOAW.
I suppose the best way to assess the games without actually having demos to play yourself, would be to watch a vid or two.
TOAW III - Kasserine Pass
There don't seem to be any Schwerpunkt titles videos so I can only offer up an AAR such as my Crimean Break In - for their first game Russo-German War.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2598