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IRL (In Real Life) => Current Events => Topic started by: steve58 on March 05, 2013, 05:02:14 PM

Title: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: steve58 on March 05, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
...starting to see some reports of this on Drudge and FoxNews (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/05/venezuelan-president-hugo-chavez-dead-vp-says/).

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_VENEZUELA_OBIT_CHAVEZ?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-05-16-58-10
Quote
President Hugo Chavez, the fiery populist who declared a socialist revolution in Venezuela, crusaded against U.S. influence and championed a leftist revival across Latin America, died Tuesday at age 58 after a nearly two-year bout with cancer.

Vice President Nicolas Maduro, surrounded by other government officials, announced the death in a national television broadcast. He said Chavez died at 4:25 p.m. local time.

Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 05:21:33 PM
Party at my place.  BYOB.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Keunert on March 05, 2013, 05:45:07 PM
Socialismo e muerte!
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Atilla60 on March 05, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
This is, in so many ways, a great day.
Chavez checks out, The one-eyed islamist freak " Moktar Belmoktar" is reported killed. And on top of that.... wait for it... on this day, 60 years ago, Stalin passed away.

It's a great day.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Windigo on March 05, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
He had bigger balls than most leaders in the world today
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: Windigo on March 05, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
He had bigger balls than most leaders in the world today

...a personal idol of yours I presume?
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: GDS_Starfury on March 05, 2013, 06:36:14 PM
Quote from: Windigo on March 05, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
He had bigger balls than most leaders in the world today

perhaps but it was a tumor.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Centurion40 on March 05, 2013, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 05:21:33 PM
Party at my place.  BYOB.

If I lived within a 2 hour drive, I'd be there- and I'd bring the beer.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Centurion40 on March 05, 2013, 06:41:14 PM
Quote from: Atilla60 on March 05, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
This is, in so many ways, a great day.
Chavez checks out, The one-eyed islamist freak " Moktar Belmoktar" is reported killed. And on top of that.... wait for it... on this day, 60 years ago, Stalin passed away.

It's a great day.

You're shitting me??!!  Stalin died on this day, 60 years ago??!!  How thoughtful of Mr. Chavez to mark the anniversary!!
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Windigo on March 05, 2013, 06:47:49 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: Windigo on March 05, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
He had bigger balls than most leaders in the world today

...a personal idol of yours I presume?

since I don't know if you are being serious or not ... I will just leave that comment of yours alone....
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 05, 2013, 06:48:46 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 05, 2013, 06:41:14 PM
Quote from: Atilla60 on March 05, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
This is, in so many ways, a great day.
Chavez checks out, The one-eyed islamist freak " Moktar Belmoktar" is reported killed. And on top of that.... wait for it... on this day, 60 years ago, Stalin passed away.

It's a great day.

You're shitting me??!!  Stalin died on this day, 60 years ago??!!  How thoughtful of Mr. Chavez to mark the anniversary!!
That's what solidarity is all about.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Centurion40 on March 05, 2013, 06:55:57 PM
Hopefully Mr. Amadinna... Amamadinajad... that smarmy fellow from Iran, will follow suit and mark the anniversary of Hitler's death.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: eyebiter on March 05, 2013, 07:15:45 PM
Figure Castro will be next.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Staggerwing on March 05, 2013, 07:19:09 PM
"Knock-knock"
"Who's there?"
"Hugo."
"Hugo who?"
"Hugo away."
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 05, 2013, 07:35:08 PM
Quote from: Keunert on March 05, 2013, 05:45:07 PM
Socialismo e muerte!

Ha!

Good point, Atilla. It's a good day when three bad guys die. Thanks for sharing that.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Gusington on March 05, 2013, 07:59:50 PM
Does Chavez have a succession plan like Castro?
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
So far Windy and Jimmy Carter are the only two westerners with anything remotely positive to say about Chavez.  :P
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Gusington on March 05, 2013, 08:04:43 PM
I thought Windy was Jimmy Carter's puppet.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: TheCommandTent on March 05, 2013, 08:10:25 PM
Good riddance.  It will be interesting to see what direction the country goes after this.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: eyebiter on March 05, 2013, 08:11:48 PM
Quote from: Gusington on March 05, 2013, 07:59:50 PM
Does Chavez have a succession plan like Castro?

His VP is the annoited one, Nicholas Maduro.. Trade union background.

Remains to be seen how well the left does in the next election due to Venezuelan economy.

Last time there was a serious conservative challenger to Chavez. Henrique Capriles Radonski
http://www.policymic.com/articles/28701/henrique-capriles-radonski-5-facts-about-the-possible-chavez-successor
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: GDS_Starfury on March 05, 2013, 08:24:49 PM
its time to invade.  call the Brits!
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: steve58 on March 05, 2013, 08:25:34 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
So far Windy and Jimmy Carter are the only two westerners with anything remotely positive to say about Chavez.  :P

Let us not forget the dis-respectable Sean Penn.  I'm sure he's on his way to Venezuela right now...

...I figured he'd (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hugo-chavez-dead-sean-penn-426205) rear his ugly head.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Staggerwing on March 05, 2013, 08:32:08 PM
IIRC Danny Glover had a few positive words to say in the past as well.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Windigo on March 05, 2013, 08:33:00 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
So far Windy and Jimmy Carter are the only two westerners with anything remotely positive to say about Chavez.  :P

I am in fine company then ...      BOh waitaminute, you ASSumed that my comment was a positive one about Hugo rather than a general observation a bout how he told the West/bigoil to go f*** itself ... Wow how positively stupid and condescending and not to mention presumptive of you, but then again you do know I like Jimmy.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Gusington on March 05, 2013, 09:28:28 PM
^Chavez supposedly worked with Citgo and other big oil companies.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Staggerwing on March 05, 2013, 09:42:43 PM
Actually, The Venezuelan Nat'l Oil company bought out Citgo in the eighties, before Chavez. The 7-Eleven Chain let it's multi-decade contract with Citgo expire specifically because Chavez started to badmouth the USA in the mid 2000's. Considering that 7-Eleven is part of a South African Multinational that has got to sting. Now the Venezuelans are trying to sell Citgo because it is under preforming.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Gusington on March 05, 2013, 10:22:25 PM
^Have you seen that commercial running lately for 'Call Joe for Heating Oil?' The commercial claims the oil they use for the charity comes from Hugo Chavez and Citgo.

Link: http://www.citizensenergy.com/main/Home.html
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 05, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 05, 2013, 09:42:43 PM
Actually, The Venezuelan Nat'l Oil company bought out Citgo in the eighties, before Chavez. The 7-Eleven Chain let it's multi-decade contract with Citgo expire specifically because Chavez started to badmouth the USA in the mid 2000's. Considering that 7-Eleven is part of a South African Multinational that has got to sting. Now the Venezuelans are trying to sell Citgo because it is under preforming.

I used to boycott Citgo because of Chavez. There aren't many around these parts (after I moved) but I made it a point to not give them my business when I had the choice.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: The Puss on March 06, 2013, 04:37:07 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
So far Windy and Jimmy Carter are the only two westerners with anything remotely positive to say about Chavez.  :P

A lot of his countrymen/women would have appeared to have liked and supported him. Just because he did not follow your political ideals does not make him a bad person.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Arctic Blast on March 06, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Eh, whatever. The guy was a self aggrandizing jackass, but comparisons to actual terror leaders and a dictator with the blood of millions on his hands are kind of ridiculous. Hugo Chavez was pretty much the real life equivalent of an Internet troll.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on March 06, 2013, 04:54:04 PM
At the time, I thought he was pretty cool when he stood up to the right wing thugs who tried to oust him in a failed coup attempt in 2002, but he quickly turned into an authoritarian douche. 
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: jejo68 on March 06, 2013, 05:00:34 PM
and... ?
another would be dictator is dead. long live the next one
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: GDS_Starfury on March 06, 2013, 06:27:11 PM
it would be interesting to know that somewhere a real WoW asshole is no longer logging on.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 06, 2013, 06:46:05 PM
Quote from: The Puss on March 06, 2013, 04:37:07 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 05, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
So far Windy and Jimmy Carter are the only two westerners with anything remotely positive to say about Chavez.  :P

A lot of his countrymen/women would have appeared to have liked and supported him. Just because he did not follow your political ideals does not make him a bad person.

Whatever you say, puss.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FAbout%2FGeneral%2F2010%2F4%2F28%2F1272457790976%2FExpect-Venezuelas-Preside-006.jpg&hash=dd671797ea9237196cd84424843f5138e29785a4)
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 06, 2013, 06:50:44 PM
Chavez was a bad man. That he was more clown than leader of a rogue nation doesn't mean he deserves anything more than our derision.

The report is from Human Rights Watch.

QuoteIn a series of detailed research reports published over the last decade, the respected rights organization has documented the crushing of judicial independence, the large-scale censorship and intimidation of the media, the quashing of opposition parties and banishment and silencing of opponents, and the imprisonment of human-rights activists. During an era when such excesses and abuses of power were disappearing in most other major South American countries, Venezuela stood nearly alone in its magnitude of demagoguery.

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/hugo-chavez-wasnt-a-dictator-but-he-crushed-democracy/article9336246/
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on March 06, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
Just imagine, had he lived a little longer he might have even OKed the use of drones to assassinate his own citizenry.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 06, 2013, 08:00:55 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on March 06, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
Just imagine, had he lived a little longer he might have even OKed the use of drones to assassinate his own citizenry.

Don't blame me.  I didn't vote for him...
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: GDS_Starfury on March 06, 2013, 08:04:53 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on March 06, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
Just imagine, had he lived a little longer he might have even OKed the use of drones to assassinate his own citizenry.

well played sir, well played.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: The Puss on March 07, 2013, 04:22:27 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 06, 2013, 06:50:44 PM
Chavez was a bad man. That he was more clown than leader of a rogue nation doesn't mean he deserves anything more than our derision.

The report is from Human Rights Watch.

QuoteIn a series of detailed research reports published over the last decade, the respected rights organization has documented the crushing of judicial independence, the large-scale censorship and intimidation of the media, the quashing of opposition parties and banishment and silencing of opponents, and the imprisonment of human-rights activists. During an era when such excesses and abuses of power were disappearing in most other major South American countries, Venezuela stood nearly alone in its magnitude of demagoguery.

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/hugo-chavez-wasnt-a-dictator-but-he-crushed-democracy/article9336246/

LB, I do not doubt any of that. The problem seems to be that he wasn't pro West in his actions, when we as Westerners look at him. You can pull all of that shit when in government and get away with it depending on who your international friends are.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Windigo on March 07, 2013, 04:25:07 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 06, 2013, 08:00:55 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on March 06, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
Just imagine, had he lived a little longer he might have even OKed the use of drones to assassinate his own citizenry.

Don't blame me.  I didn't vote for him...

+2 for the sarcastic humour and the nod to the domestic cathartic circumstance you find yourself in
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: The Puss on March 07, 2013, 04:22:27 PM
LB, I do not doubt any of that. The problem seems to be that he wasn't pro West in his actions, when we as Westerners look at him. You can pull all of that shit when in government and get away with it depending on who your international friends are.

You are correct.

Still, I'm not going to be any less gleeful at his death despite the hypocrisy  8)
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 05:23:27 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

His people seem to be deeply divided. Last year's election was widely regarded as largely honest. Chavez won 55% of the vote. Apparently the other 45% didn't like him much at all. (Hmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.)
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious.  Domestic popularity is not always an accurate indicator of good/benevolent leadership.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 05:26:57 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious.  Domestic popularity is not always an accurate indicator of good/benevolent leadership.

When a dictator counts as his closest friends Iran and North Korea he falls short of being praiseworthy IMHO.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 05:23:27 PM
His people seem to be deeply divided. Last year's election was widely regarded as largely honest. Chavez won 55% of the vote. Apparently the other 45% didn't like him much at all. (Hmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.)
Interesting point. If I recall Tony Blair was returned second time around with a huge majority in terms of seats in Parliament, yet only attained 26% of the popular vote, which raises all sorts of questions about the representiveness of the UK model of democracy.  Personally, I wish we operated more like Israel's model, which incidentally IIRC is the voting model used by the Law Society of England and Wales - apparently good enough for our lawyers, but not our citizens... :o Tony Blair was widely despised at home by many people and you certainly didn't see the outpouring of devotion that you see in the news clips coming out of Venezuela when he left.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: bob48 on March 07, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
Mind you, when was the last time we had a PM that anyone felt that attached to?
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: steve58 on March 07, 2013, 05:52:02 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

I suspect his "popularity" was somewhat a result of the huge amounts of bolivars he spent on social programs.  Too bad he didn't invest in the infrastructure (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/08/19/venezuela-has-electricity-supply-problems-chavez-says/) as well...
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 05:23:27 PM
His people seem to be deeply divided. Last year's election was widely regarded as largely honest. Chavez won 55% of the vote. Apparently the other 45% didn't like him much at all. (Hmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.)
Interesting point. If I recall Tony Blair was returned second time around with a huge majority in terms of seats in Parliament, yet only attained 26% of the popular vote, which raises all sorts of questions about the representiveness of the UK model of democracy.  Personally, I wish we operated more like Israel's model, which incidentally IIRC is the voting model used by the Law Society of England and Wales - apparently good enough for our lawyers, but not our citizens... :o Tony Blair was widely despised at home by many people and you certainly didn't see the outpouring of devotion that you see in the news clips coming out of Venezuela when he left.

I'm not sold on the Italian/Israeli models of a democratic republic. Their chief trait - aside from be democratic republics - is their ability to have a government formed about every six months. Stability is not a hallmark.

On the opposite side seems to be our American system. Having only two parties is highly stable, but generic. I'm not complaining. It has taken extraordinary effort for Obama to attempt to socialize our economy and he's been largely unsuccessful. But at the same time, it's also difficult to elect to national office representatives of the opposite polarity, libertarians. Still, hope springs eternal.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 06:02:21 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious.  Domestic popularity is not always an accurate indicator of good/benevolent leadership.
Hugo Chavez is not Adolf Hitler. To a large degree, he did not espouse the same policies either. I condemn the gagging of the press and the undue pressure/influence placed on the judiciary, but this is not just a problem for the Venezuelans. This is a major problem for many other countries too. India for one immediately springs to mind - I refer you here to Fareed Zakaria's book "The Future of Freedom"  http://www.amazon.com/Future-Freedom-Illiberal-Democracy-Revised/dp/0393331520 which looks at this in quite some depth. I don't see the Hitler analogy, as appropriate to Chavez. His human rights record is not good, but he's not that different from the political leaders of many other contemporary countries which you don't condemn.

I agree with your assertion that "Domestic popularity is not always an accurate indicator of good/benevolent leadership", but domenstic popularity is not inconsistent with good/benevolent leadership either. For these reasons I reject your analogy.

I can understand as a American patriot you naturally oppose him for his adoption of a number of anti-American policies. I'm not offering a defence for him nor his policies, merely observing from a variety of news clips that he appears to be very well regarded by many ordinary Venezuelans. I'm not suggesting that he is popular with the people whose wealth he chose to redistribute, or those whose human rights his government has abused. As I pointed out there are at least two sides of the story.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 06:06:51 PM
Quote from: bob48 on March 07, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
Mind you, when was the last time we had a PM that anyone felt that attached to?
ROFL! ;D I quite agree. The stats on the popular vote for Blair bears that out. 76% of people either didn't want him or were not otherwise motivated to vote for him, yet he was returned with a towering majority due to the way our voting system operates. Cameron is the Prime Minister for a coalition since he could'nt even form a majority government. Your comment hits the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 06:07:17 PM
I never said he was Adolf Hitler, nor did I compare their policies.  I'm only replying to the point you seemed to be making about popularity as a reflection on good leadership.  There is not always a correlation.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Windigo on March 07, 2013, 06:12:05 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 06:07:17 PM
I never said he was Adolf Hitler, nor did I compare their policies.  I'm only replying to the point you seemed to be making about popularity as a reflection on good leadership.  There is not always a correlation.

absolutely.... look at how unpopular Jimmy was despite his leadership.....      :D
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 06:12:31 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 06:07:17 PM
I never said he was Adolf Hitler, nor did I compare their policies.  I'm only replying to the point you seemed to be making about popularity as a reflection on good leadership.  There is not always a correlation.

Like GrogHeads!


....wait....
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 06:17:37 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 07, 2013, 05:23:27 PM
His people seem to be deeply divided. Last year's election was widely regarded as largely honest. Chavez won 55% of the vote. Apparently the other 45% didn't like him much at all. (Hmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.)
Interesting point. If I recall Tony Blair was returned second time around with a huge majority in terms of seats in Parliament, yet only attained 26% of the popular vote, which raises all sorts of questions about the representiveness of the UK model of democracy.  Personally, I wish we operated more like Israel's model, which incidentally IIRC is the voting model used by the Law Society of England and Wales - apparently good enough for our lawyers, but not our citizens... :o Tony Blair was widely despised at home by many people and you certainly didn't see the outpouring of devotion that you see in the news clips coming out of Venezuela when he left.

I'm not sold on the Italian/Israeli models of a democratic republic. Their chief trait - aside from be democratic republics - is their ability to have a government formed about every six months. Stability is not a hallmark.

On the opposite side seems to be our American system. Having only two parties is highly stable, but generic. I'm not complaining. It has taken extraordinary effort for Obama to attempt to socialize our economy and he's been largely unsuccessful. But at the same time, it's also difficult to elect to national office representatives of the opposite polarity, libertarians. Still, hope springs eternal.
I think you make a very interesting point about voting models.

One extreme tends to a closer correlation to the popular representation, but because of the number of parties tends to instability, whilst the other towards greater stability at the price of popular representation. I agree with you that both have something to be said for them. Perhaps the ideal is somewhere in the middle? I must admit that I think coalition politics in the UK seems better than operating under a single party that can effectively ignore public opinion for five years - Hailsham's elective dictatorship... :-\ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_dictatorship
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 06:07:17 PM
I never said he was Adolf Hitler, nor did I compare their policies.  I'm only replying to the point you seemed to be making about popularity as a reflection on good leadership.  There is not always a correlation.
I respectfully suggest that you re-read what I wrote and what you wrote in reply.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious.  Domestic popularity is not always an accurate indicator of good/benevolent leadership.

At no point did I say or imply that popularity and good leadership were linked. I didn't even mention "leadership". I said only that Hugo Chavez "seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans", which is not an endorsement of leadership qualities, but is an indicator of popularity - or even the positive sentimentality of many Venezuelans. The only times I have seen a public outpouring of grief like that seen on the news for Hugo Chavez, was for people like Princess Diana or Pope John Paul II, and that is why I wrote what I did.

I agree you didn't say Chavez was Adolf Hitler, and my comment "Hugo Chavez is not Adolf Hitler" is said to dismiss the analogy rather than suggest any reincarnation. I agree you also did not compare Hitler's and Chavez' actual policies. However, you wrote at the outset of your reply without any prompting from me "Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious." The very statement begs comparison between the two, and your second sentence supports the implication of your analogy, even if you weren't explicit in making the comparison. Whilst your intention seems clear to me, perhaps there is some other conclusion I should have drawn from what appears to me be an obviously comparative statement?

I replied to you on my impression of what you had written. If I am mistaken as to your intention to draw comparison, and I'm not convinced that I am - based on what was actually written - then I apologise to you.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: bayonetbrant on March 08, 2013, 06:58:48 AM
Quote from: bob48 on March 07, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
Mind you, when was the last time we had a PM that anyone felt that attached to?

Disraeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli)?
or further back than that?
;D
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Jarhead0331 on March 08, 2013, 07:10:42 AM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 06:07:17 PM
I never said he was Adolf Hitler, nor did I compare their policies.  I'm only replying to the point you seemed to be making about popularity as a reflection on good leadership.  There is not always a correlation.
I respectfully suggest that you re-read what I wrote and what you wrote in reply.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 07, 2013, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
On the one hand, he can be criticised for his latter day human rights infringements and economic (mis?) management. On the other hand he seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans. I wonder how we will look at his "reign" 10 years from now?

Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious.  Domestic popularity is not always an accurate indicator of good/benevolent leadership.

At no point did I say or imply that popularity and good leadership were linked. I didn't even mention "leadership". I said only that Hugo Chavez "seems to be hugely popular and missed by many ordinary Venezuelans", which is not an endorsement of leadership qualities, but is an indicator of popularity - or even the positive sentimentality of many Venezuelans. The only times I have seen a public outpouring of grief like that seen on the news for Hugo Chavez, was for people like Princess Diana or Pope John Paul II, and that is why I wrote what I did.

I agree you didn't say Chavez was Adolf Hitler, and my comment "Hugo Chavez is not Adolf Hitler" is said to dismiss the analogy rather than suggest any reincarnation. I agree you also did not compare Hitler's and Chavez' actual policies. However, you wrote at the outset of your reply without any prompting from me "Adolf Hitler was pretty popular in his day too.  I think the significance of this is obvious." The very statement begs comparison between the two, and your second sentence supports the implication of your analogy, even if you weren't explicit in making the comparison. Whilst your intention seems clear to me, perhaps there is some other conclusion I should have drawn from what appears to me be an obviously comparative statement?

I replied to you on my impression of what you had written. If I am mistaken as to your intention to draw comparison, and I'm not convinced that I am - based on what was actually written - then I apologise to you.

I'm, not going to argue with you in circles Boggit. I think what you said is clear, and I think my replies have been clear.  Let's leave it at that.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: pawelj on March 08, 2013, 09:20:53 AM
Day 3 - Hugo Chavez is still dead.

Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 08, 2013, 09:45:07 AM
Quote from: pawelj on March 08, 2013, 09:20:53 AM
Day 3 - Hugo Chavez is still dead.

Yay!

Though I must confess my the joy is starting to fade.

It might be time to start daydreaming about the fall of another dictator. I'm thinking Assad.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Staggerwing on March 08, 2013, 09:45:18 AM
Quote from: pawelj on March 08, 2013, 09:20:53 AM
Day 3 - Hugo Chavez is still dead.

Hopefully someone slipped a garlic necklace under his funeral suit.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Windigo on March 08, 2013, 12:25:54 PM
Good Lord, they are going to embalm his corpse and put it on display.... WTF? He was a relatively good icon of economic dufous-icity, but with 'balls of steel' who did more stupid than good.... what the hell???
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Longdan on March 08, 2013, 02:41:14 PM
Maybe they like and admire stupid.  Just to be different ya know?
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 08, 2013, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 08, 2013, 07:10:42 AM
I'm, not going to argue with you in circles Boggit. I think what you said is clear, and I think my replies have been clear.  Let's leave it at that.
No worries. A difference of opinion. We're good. :)
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: bob48 on March 08, 2013, 04:55:55 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 08, 2013, 06:58:48 AM
Quote from: bob48 on March 07, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
Mind you, when was the last time we had a PM that anyone felt that attached to?

Disraeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli)?
or further back than that?
;D

Dunno. He was a bit even before my time. ;)
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: LongBlade on March 08, 2013, 05:14:23 PM
Quote from: Windigo on March 08, 2013, 12:25:54 PM
Good Lord, they are going to embalm his corpse and put it on display.... WTF? He was a relatively good icon of economic dufous-icity, but with 'balls of steel' who did more stupid than good.... what the hell???

I think it's a pretty good idea.

When the populace finally realizes how badly he handled the economy it'll be easier for them to crap on his face.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Longdan on March 08, 2013, 05:36:22 PM
He was kind of a buffoon but he stood up for what he believed in.  He just believed in some dumb stuff.  Economically.
Being decisive and action oriented isn't all that great when you aren't very smart.  Some people never figure that one out.
They die first.  Maybe they could make his cadaver into a helicopter or something and fly it around the country
like that deceased pet cat out there on the web.  (Apologies to cat lovers and not so bright Latin American dictators.)
He was my age and IMHO that is somewhat too young to die.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: bayonetbrant on March 08, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 08, 2013, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 08, 2013, 07:10:42 AM
I'm, not going to argue with you in circles Boggit. I think what you said is clear, and I think my replies have been clear.  Let's leave it at that.
No worries. A difference of opinion. We're good. :)

way to hug it out you two.

something you'd never see back at WGer...  or ACG... or BGG (where this thread would've been shut down long before now)... or anywhere else.
Title: Re: Hugo Chavez has died
Post by: Boggit on March 08, 2013, 08:24:59 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 08, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 08, 2013, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 08, 2013, 07:10:42 AM
I'm, not going to argue with you in circles Boggit. I think what you said is clear, and I think my replies have been clear.  Let's leave it at that.
No worries. A difference of opinion. We're good. :)

way to hug it out you two.

something you'd never see back at WGer...  or ACG... or BGG (where this thread would've been shut down long before now)... or anywhere else.
I have a lot of respect for Jarhead. We may not always agree on things, and I don't think either of us is minded to back down when we think we are in the right, but I respect his integrity and I think it's mutual.