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That's just mean... ;D
Cool!
SPAFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Avast!! What is this unknown stirring in my loins??!!!
After all this time... :P
That Elana has got quite a "stack" on her. I mean under her. She can stay in my Tractor Works any time she wants.
She would elope with your tractor.
Want some more? ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F886562_476021672452356_173729278_o.jpg&hash=e386c9bdd7e8643225d1fe45c585e2ab25e73ec4)
out of spaff, just fresh air coming out of the end now
how many more have you got - dont make me come down there!
;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn1%2F894000_476027575785099_360644609_o.jpg&hash=1b00befbf3fc140c7406db1c490b8294ca66c6b4)
Mmm... does the fact you are posting screenshots mean its close ?
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 11:41:32 AM
Mmm... does the fact you are posting screenshots mean its close ?
That I can't comment on..... but it is getting closer every day......
^NDA? Alpha or Beta?
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 14, 2013, 11:44:37 AM
^NDA? Alpha or Beta?
NDA.... beta..... ;)
So if you can say anything - is it a faitful reproduction ? More specifically I always liked the "events" in the scenarios. Have they been able to include these ?
someone's about to have a posse of Groginati over at his house kicking his ass
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 11:47:38 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 14, 2013, 11:44:37 AM
^NDA? Alpha or Beta?
NDA.... beta..... ;)
So if you can say anything - is it a faitful reproduction ? More specifically I always liked the "events" in the scenarios. Have they been able to include these ?
Yes. To both questions.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 14, 2013, 11:48:16 AM
someone's about to have a posse of Groginati over at his house kicking his ass
How would that help me finish testing the game.... ??? ;D
Is this Lock n Load?
Quote from: Tuna on March 14, 2013, 11:53:44 AM
Is this Lock n Load?
Yes... Heroes of Stalingrad.
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:49:25 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 14, 2013, 11:48:16 AM
someone's about to have a posse of Groginati over at his house kicking his ass
How would that help me finish testing the game.... ??? ;D
we'll do it for you
^^ what he said
:P
Look closely..... ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg9.imageshack.us%2Fimg9%2F3923%2Fturretb.jpg&hash=14c2dccc301e2f55149cf36e550cf265fcc67097)
Knock knock
Halos sir! Off the starboard bow!
???
At the tank.....
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 11:41:32 AM
Mmm... does the fact you are posting screenshots mean its close ?
That I can't comment on..... but it is getting closer every day......
Let's hope so.
It seems like long ages that it's been in development, and at some points the impression was that it had been put on hold in favor of tabletop projects.
Good to see that it's making progress once again. 8) Looks beautiful. Wow... looks like the tank turret graphic actually moves to where it fired, too. :o
EDIT: And with the black background colored SS units again? At least tell me the Soviet Guards units have their own color too - or is this another Axis Fanboy 'Supermen' nod? :P
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 01:05:47 PM
???
At the tank.....
turret moved
<<starts the car>>
erm Barth's address anyone?
Quote from: Nefaro on March 14, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 11:41:32 AM
Mmm... does the fact you are posting screenshots mean its close ?
That I can't comment on..... but it is getting closer every day......
Let's hope so.
It seems like long ages that it's been in development, and at some points the impression was that it had been put on hold in favor of tabletop projects.
Good to see that it's making progress once again. 8) Looks beautiful.
EDIT: And with the black background colored SS units again? At least tell me the Soviet Guards units have their own color too - or is this another Axis Fanboy 'Supermen' nod? :P
Soviet Guards....
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg856.imageshack.us%2Fimg856%2F4200%2Fguardss.jpg&hash=4d193afd0e90a9dece21bcf2832c0074115822a8)
Is that smoke from firing or clouds moving over the table top/battle field?
Quote from: Capn Darwin on March 14, 2013, 01:25:12 PM
Is that smoke from firing or clouds moving over the table top/battle field?
Clouds drifting over the map... they can be turned on/off.
Gasp - it comes presinstalled with a MetalDog moustache mod :o
Quote from: Nefaro on March 14, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 11:41:32 AM
Mmm... does the fact you are posting screenshots mean its close ?
That I can't comment on..... but it is getting closer every day......
Let's hope so.
It seems like long ages that it's been in development, and at some points the impression was that it had been put on hold in favor of tabletop projects.
Good to see that it's making progress once again. 8) Looks beautiful. Wow... looks like the tank turret graphic actually moves to where it fired, too. :o
EDIT: And with the black background colored SS units again? At least tell me the Soviet Guards units have their own color too - or is this another Axis Fanboy 'Supermen' nod? :P
PS.... colour is important because SS leaders can't rally werhmacht troops, soviet regulars can't rally guard troops etc....
... And the maps and counters match the existing board game art.
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 14, 2013, 01:15:59 PMerm Barth's address anyone?
I think it requires a plane trip for you
or a Fiat
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Wasn't there an old board game just like this? Oh. Wait. NOW I see what all the fuss is about.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 14, 2013, 11:48:16 AM
someone's about to have a posse of Groginati over at his house kicking his ass
No need. I'll just call Mark.
Quote from: Capn Darwin on March 14, 2013, 01:34:58 PM
... And the maps and counters match the existing board game art.
Like the curtains matching the rug? Don't think I didn't see what you did there....
Quote from: LongBlade on March 14, 2013, 01:55:03 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 14, 2013, 11:48:16 AM
someone's about to have a posse of Groginati over at his house kicking his ass
No need. I'll just call Mark.
good point. You call Mark, I'll call Janice, someone will get a copy :D
I will just trade Mark a Red Storm beta opening. ;D
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 14, 2013, 01:28:41 PM
Gasp - it comes presinstalled with a MetalDog moustache mod :o
And I had no idea Steelgrave sat for a pic to be included as Lt. Petrov. Who knew Steelie was a closet Communist (I guess that love of Reagan was a front).
I may have got our more hersuite forumites mixed up - I did of course mean the baby faced tractor factory hero steelie
Ok, anyone else thinking "Day 1 instant buy"? 8)
Since 2009
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 14, 2013, 03:05:26 PM
I may have got our more hersuite forumites mixed up - I did of course mean the baby faced tractor factory hero steelie
Actually, I think, if MetalDog had a moustache, he would/should have one like Lt. Lodashik.
Quote from: Toonces on March 14, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Ok, anyone else thinking "Day 1 instant buy"? 8)
I have heard such good things about the board game, and I love the art style, so I'm pretty sure I will be getting it.
The turrets rotate on the counters?! Nice! 8)
Quote from: Nefaro on March 14, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
It seems like long ages that it's been in development, and at some points the impression was that it had been put on hold in favor of tabletop projects.
Good to see that it's making progress once again. 8) Looks beautiful. Wow... looks like the tank turret graphic actually moves to where it fired, too. :o
EDIT: And with the black background colored SS units again? At least tell me the Soviet Guards units have their own color too - or is this another Axis Fanboy 'Supermen' nod? :P
Different counter colours are purely for force differentiation. Hell, Luftwaffe field infantry and Fallschirmjager have their own colour, too (blue).
I like the trend of converting actual board games to PC format.
So those maps look hand drawn - I am presuming there is no map editing with it. Presumably a scenario creator though ?
Wow. This has been in development for so long. I thought it was dead already?
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 12:29:15 PM
Look closely..... ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg9.imageshack.us%2Fimg9%2F3923%2Fturretb.jpg&hash=14c2dccc301e2f55149cf36e550cf265fcc67097)
I did note the turret facing. Does the game also include animations for artillery barrages, tank kills, and building destruction? Differing unit art for big guns when either deployed or transported? Field Kitchens with grunts queuing up for rations?
Quote from: Toonces on March 14, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Ok, anyone else thinking "Day 1 instant buy"? 8)
Yep, me!
I drooled over this game when it was originally announced on the Matrix forums. When it went quiet for a long time, I just assumed it had been canned. Fantastic news that this game is going to finally be published.
I'll be buying a copy as soon as possible :)
Quote from: Toonces on March 14, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Ok, anyone else thinking "Day 1 instant buy"? 8)
Yes, yes and yes!
Barthheart you are an evil tease.... and we love you for it!
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
So those maps look hand drawn - I am presuming there is no map editing with it. Presumably a scenario creator though ?
There probably won't be any map editing as tehre is a LOT of LoS programming etc. on each one.
Possibly a scenario editor... not sure = don't quote.
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 14, 2013, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 12:29:15 PM
Look closely..... ;)
I did note the turret facing. Does the game also include animations for artillery barrages, tank kills, and building destruction? Differing unit art for big guns when either deployed or transported? Field Kitchens with grunts queuing up for rations?
Turrets turn = yes
Animations for arty, tank kills = yes building destruction = no or not yet - only way to destroy a building is to drive through it and rubble it. Dangerous thought as it might have a basement and trap your vehicle. Again don't quote.
Bigs guns are never transported so no.
No field kitchens, you'll be too busy killing things. 8)
Quote from: jomni on March 14, 2013, 05:34:20 PM
Wow. This has been in development for so long. I thought it was dead already?
It has been a very long time.... but it has always been worked on... just more work being done now.... 8)
Quote from: Bison on March 14, 2013, 04:14:54 PM
I like the trend of converting actual board games to PC format.
This is a direct port of the board game. Too much fun to change anything.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 14, 2013, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: Toonces on March 14, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Ok, anyone else thinking "Day 1 instant buy"? 8)
Yes, yes and yes!
Barthheart you are an evil tease.... and we love you for it!
You're welcome. 8)
Quote from: jomni on March 14, 2013, 05:34:20 PM
Wow. This has been in development for so long. I thought it was dead already?
Not even close. There wasn't a lot of money to pay for a fast development track, but development never ceased.
Hello:
Are there multi-level buildings in the game?
Thanks,
Gerry
Welcome, Gerry. We'll try to find out for you.
Thank you.
Gerry
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on March 14, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2013, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 14, 2013, 11:41:32 AM
Mmm... does the fact you are posting screenshots mean its close ?
That I can't comment on..... but it is getting closer every day......
Let's hope so.
It seems like long ages that it's been in development, and at some points the impression was that it had been put on hold in favor of tabletop projects.
Good to see that it's making progress once again. 8) Looks beautiful. Wow... looks like the tank turret graphic actually moves to where it fired, too. :o
EDIT: And with the black background colored SS units again? At least tell me the Soviet Guards units have their own color too - or is this another Axis Fanboy 'Supermen' nod? :P
PS.... colour is important because SS leaders can't rally werhmacht troops, soviet regulars can't rally guard troops etc....
Interesting. There's actually a
use for it.
I'm usually just getting putting my anti-axis fanboy moustache on when I see SS units given extra special color/symbol designation in some wargames (and nothing similar to other nations). So I had to ask. ;)
I'm not familiar with LnL tabletop games.. actually, I haven't played much of anything on a tabletop in years due to lack of opponents in the neighborhood, now that I think of it. :-\ So I've been looking forward to this if for nothing more than the
very tabletop-ish look.
I have been burned with one tabletop conversion (conflict of heroes). The action point system there is so gamey. At least I'm familiar with LnL rules and I know it's more sane. :) keeping my fingers crossed.
Really, really, REALLY looking forward to this. Really.
+20
Quote from: Gerry on March 14, 2013, 08:39:10 PM
Hello:
Are there multi-level buildings in the game?
Thanks,
Gerry
I can not say right now because of me NDA... sorry.
Quote from: jomni on March 15, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
I have been burned with one tabletop conversion (conflict of heroes). The action point system there is so gamey. At least I'm familiar with LnL rules and I know it's more sane. :) keeping my fingers crossed.
I was disappointed with the CoH port as well. I was on that beta team for a bit but the game, to me, just wasn't fun. And I did not like the fact that they went 3D with it. But that's just me. ::)
I said during beta testing of Conflict of Heroes that it wouldn't take well with fans of the boardgame (the look or persistent APs) and actually dropped out because of it - I signed up to test Conflict of Heroes and the way it was going I just felt like I was playing a dumbed down generic 3D WWII strategy game
But to ericbabes credit he has released a 2D counter/board version which looks spiffing and implemented the AP system from the boardgame and done away with persistent APs
I bought it because of these changes and it does play rather well and looks pretty good.
However - I wonder - whilst I've always wanted a computerised version of some board games whether they ever really can do it.
I mean - boardgaming for me is about all the little intricacies that come with boardgaming...gathering the counters required, setting up, checking rules, book keeping, rolling the dice - physical interaction...there's alot in boardgaming that just cannot be transferred into a computer game.
Sure - they can make it look pretty (though it's arguable given some of the boardgames I have and seen whether a computerised version will ever do it as nice) and book keep for you and randomly perform the rolls and add the modifiers - but all that IS a boardgame and what makes a boardgame...take it away from the user and what have you got?
So - whilst I love the look of this - and admittedly having some difficulties with the rules initially with LnL Band of Heroes - I don't know if this will turn out to be everything that we hope for.
I'm sure it'll be a huge hit for people not into the boardgame - but will it keep/convert boardgame players of the series? I don't know.
All good points JD.
For me this particular game is hitting some of those points. Can't say too much because of the NDA but it does have that "board game" feeling to me. To me it's like playing Band of Heroes on VASSAL but it has enforced rules and an AI.
Will it convert people to the series, I hope so.
Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2013, 07:21:05 AM
All good points JD.
For me this particular game is hitting some of those points. Can't say too much because of the NDA but it does have that "board game" feeling to me. To me it's like playing Band of Heroes on VASSAL but it has enforced rules and an AI.
Will it convert people to the series, I hope so.
And it looks a heck of alot better than on VASSAL. :)
Not sure what all you can say but I think it is safe to assume it will support multiplayer. My question then is how easy are they going to make setting up and executing a MP game? Will it be like PBEM or will they have a MP lobby to find opponents or link up with friends to play?
^I can't see how PBEM would work with the game rules as is - not with Op Fire and impulses - essentially moving/firing one unit at a time.
Op Fire would cause a real headache in pbem and make for a VERY looooooooooooong game I would have thought. I saw similar problems with Empires in Arms - the people were crying out for a better way to play as online wasn't always feasible and pbem couldn't work because of "turn" interjections.
My guess would be online only.
I've play PBEM Band of Heroes series using VASSAL. It does take a long time to play that way, but it can be done.
This does not at this time have PBEM. There is MP.
Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2013, 08:30:12 AM
I've play PBEM Band of Heroes series using VASSAL. It does take a long time to play that way, but it can be done.
This does not at this time have PBEM. There is MP.
are there plans for PBEM
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 15, 2013, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2013, 08:30:12 AM
I've play PBEM Band of Heroes series using VASSAL. It does take a long time to play that way, but it can be done.
This does not at this time have PBEM. There is MP.
are there plans for PBEM
NDA (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.talkphotography.co.uk%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fschtum.gif&hash=cc51882a225956be684c55d739538f767aeb2507)
My understanding from another forum is that the impulse mechanism of the game is not suited to PBEM so the game would not have PBEM implemented. Of course they may still implement it?!
Bummer for me as I love PBEM. I like the time to think over moves. ASL was great for this. CoH also has an interactive game mechanism so it does not have PBEM. It uses Slitherine's online system instead. It is interesting that we will soon have 2 boardgames ported over to the computer side but neither may have PBEM.
Gerry
Quote from: Gerry on March 14, 2013, 08:39:10 PMAre there multi-level buildings in the game?
just received an answer by email from Mark
Quote from: Mark WalkerNope, no multi-level buildings. If I had my druthers, I'd ban multi-level buildings from every tactical game in existence. Feel free to quote me on that.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 15, 2013, 09:29:29 AM
Quote from: Gerry on March 14, 2013, 08:39:10 PMAre there multi-level buildings in the game?
just received an answer by email from Mark
Quote from: Mark WalkerNope, no multi-level buildings. If I had my druthers, I'd ban multi-level buildings from every tactical game in existence. Feel free to quote me on that.
Heh. I just pinged him asking for preview code 8)
are multi level buildings a bad thing?
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 15, 2013, 09:41:03 AM
are multi level buildings a bad thing?
Apparently Mark thinks so.
I haven't spoken with him about it, but I'm sure he'll have a good reason. We may or may not agree, but that is not a decision made on accident.
No multilevel buildings means simpler LOS. Of course this can be taken care off now since it is a computer game. But I guess he wants to stay true to the original board game.
Well since that cat's outa the bag... I can comment.
Yes Mark has always said that he hates using multi-story buildings. It was causing some trouble during the coding, and not just for LoS, so Mark happily jumped in and canned it. It's his game after all. 8)
Multi-story buildings are not a "bad" thing it just adds another level of fiddly to an otherwise streamlined game system. Very few of the board game's scenarios actually have multi-story buildings.
Thanks for getting an answer!
I must say I am confused though. After asking the question I found a downloadable demo of LnL Band of Heroes. One of the counters was a building and said "Upper Level".
Upper levels are critical ground for observers, etc? It's not just they are in ASL; they exist in real life. Maybe they will have some abstraction system for this. I understand that CoH, which is developing a Stalingrad module for the boardgame, is going to use abstraction for the upper levels.
Gerry
Quote from: Gerry on March 15, 2013, 10:32:43 AM
Thanks for getting an answer!
I must say I am confused though. After asking the question I found a downloadable demo of LnL Band of Heroes. One of the counters was a building and said "Upper Level".
Upper levels are critical ground for observers, etc? It's not just they are in ASL; they exist in real life. Maybe they will have some abstraction system for this. I understand that CoH, which is developing a Stalingrad module for the boardgame, is going to use abstraction for the upper levels.
Gerry
They do exist in the board game version, yes. They will not be in the computer version... at least not at the start.
The scenarios in the game so far don't really need them.
More pictures (official) up on Matrix Games site.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3293194
More, more, more please!
Quote from: Barthheart on March 25, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
More pictures (official) up on Matrix Games site.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3293194
Awesome just awesome.
Can you say if there will be any type of campaign or just one off scenarios?
It's hard to picture a Stalingrad battle with only 1 story buildings. It's also difficult, as a neophyte programmer, to picture a programmer that's experienced and skilled enough to code this game in the first place, who can't also find a reasonable solution to implementing multilevel buildings. My Vassal opponent and I just fought an LnL Stalingrad scenario that includes multilevel buildings (Tough as Nails) and they weren't nearly the PitA from a game play perspective that I thought they'd be.
I'm sure that I'm overlooking a thing or two.
I've been playing squad Battles for years and have never been bothered by the lack of multilevel buildings. Sometimes you just don't need them for this scale.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 25, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 25, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
More pictures (official) up on Matrix Games site.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3293194
Awesome just awesome.
Can you say if there will be any type of campaign or just one off scenarios?
There is a campaign.... from each side... 8)
Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2013, 05:56:17 AM
Quote from: jomni on March 15, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
I have been burned with one tabletop conversion (conflict of heroes). The action point system there is so gamey. At least I'm familiar with LnL rules and I know it's more sane. :) keeping my fingers crossed.
I was disappointed with the CoH port as well. I was on that beta team for a bit but the game, to me, just wasn't fun. And I did not like the fact that they went 3D with it. But that's just me. ::)
Exactly the same for me. I was in on the beta for a time but couldn't get into it. Along with the 3D thing, I was also burned out on all the WW2 overload at the time. So I apologized and ducked out early. :-\
It really doesn't look like a bad game at all.. just wasn't for me at the time.
From latest build (today)... maps are now edged to look like real map boards. (No that's not the only change, but it's the only one you can see.)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg132.imageshack.us%2Fimg132%2F5636%2Finfshot.jpg&hash=de0251dff0cf8214bc2dccb92662c380108ae47d)
^drool
Quote from: Barthheart on March 25, 2013, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 25, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 25, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
More pictures (official) up on Matrix Games site.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3293194
Awesome just awesome.
Can you say if there will be any type of campaign or just one off scenarios?
There is a campaign.... from each side... 8)
Will they have any system for transferring losses/experience and different outcomes based on winning or losing, or will they just be several scenarios in a row.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 25, 2013, 10:58:57 PM
^drool
Quote from: Barthheart on March 25, 2013, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 25, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 25, 2013, 11:35:56 AM
More pictures (official) up on Matrix Games site.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3293194
Awesome just awesome.
Can you say if there will be any type of campaign or just one off scenarios?
There is a campaign.... from each side... 8)
Will they have any system for transferring losses/experience and different outcomes based on winning or losing, or will they just be several scenarios in a row.
There is carryover in the campaigns. The campaigns are stories from a characters point of view. If he dies, you lose!
^Excellent.
Concerning the clouds floating over the mapboard (and off-map), personally I'd rather have combat smoke being generated and drifting around.
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 26, 2013, 08:29:33 AM
Concerning the clouds floating over the mapboard (and off-map), personally I'd rather have combat smoke being generated and drifting around.
Somes times when an AFV is destroyed it will create a smoke screen that affects LoS for a short period of time.
The clouds can be turned off.
More goodies....
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.imageshack.us%2Fimg15%2F403%2Fsovrom.jpg&hash=1519a85e87a4580c7da838eea04b6605ec3d8146)
Close air support.
V cool.
And Romanians.... zillions of them....
I understand the appeal of making this look as much like a boardgame as possible.
Though I have mixed feelings about the concept, up to a point I don't see any harm in it.
Having said that, many of the aspects of the maps that I've seen in this thread are drop dead gorgeous.
I do have two little quibbles, however.
First, I'm not sure there's any game-enhancing value to showing the crease between two sections of map in the viewable playing area. I would think that that thin horizontal dark line detracts rather than adds to the experience.
After years of playing computer games I'm starting to migrate slowly back to board games. But with that migration comes the recognition that computers do some things better than board games, and why not take advantage of the advantages?
That thin horizontal line really isn't needed.
My other quibble is going to be a bit more controversial.
I seriously doubt that if I were to play this game I would stretch a piece of dental floss between the center points between two hexes to figure our if the Line of Sight/Line of Fire is blocked.
Now this probably wouldn't occur to those that don't use dental floss. I only came up with it because when raiding a significant other's odds and ends many years ago my choices were black sewing thread or waxy white dental floss. I went with the waxy solution, and was very pleased with those central dots because they made the job much easier.
But I don't really see the need for the dots in a computer game. The program can do the Line of Sight calculation better than a human can (I'm thinking of the LOS button in the Tiller games, don't know how it works here), and the dots are only needed if you're stretching thread or whatever across a flat surface.
Why not do away with the dots altogether, or maybe reduce them to a toggle switch for the nostalgia buffs.
Having said all of that, I half expect someone to come along and tell me I really don't get it because these are screenshots of a boardgame and not a computer game. No matter -- that's the risk you take when you comment on a thread you haven't read. But besides that, I drool with graphics lust when I see those images and really, really wish that John Tiller's Squad Battles looked half that good.
If it plays anywhere near as good as it looks it's going to be a must buy.
Hi Philippe,
Your comments are most welcome. Thanks for taking the time to speak your piece.
The thin line may be removed yet. There is still some graphics work to be done. Being a long time player of the board game version I kinda like them but I do see your point and I'll make sure it gets mentioned.
The LoS dots still serve a purpose. The LoS button brings up a vitrual "thread of dental floss" (my choice when needed too) so you can visually check LoS on the map. As for the size of the dots most of the maps use the original art work from the board game, so that's why they are like they are.
It is lots of fun to play even now. 8)
I like the idea it's taying 100% faithful graphically. I think boardgame conversions suffer when they alter - even if the graphic erves no purpose. If there were to be thing removed and affecting the authenticity of the boardgame feel (and boardgame conversions uffer massively from conversion anyway, without taking away the look also) then I hope those changes are options (keep LoS Dots/Remove LoS Dots)
Will the game come with a giant cat to come in and scatter all your pieces just when you've got a sure win?
^taking the boardgame feel too far there! ;)
Quote from: Philippe on March 26, 2013, 01:35:56 PM
But I don't really see the need for the dots in a computer game. The program can do the Line of Sight calculation better than a human can (I'm thinking of the LOS button in the Tiller games, don't know how it works here), and the dots are only needed if you're stretching thread or whatever across a flat surface.
I mentioned the unneeded LOS dots detracting from the great artwork long ago, but they wanted to keep them in. *shrug* Don't really need to hand-place a straight edge yourself, either, but evidentally they wanted that for the tabletop feel (though it was just a chore IMO).
Here's yer chance boyos...
QuoteMark H. Walker's Lock'n Load: Heroes of Stalingrad is looking for a few good Testers for our first wider beta test of both single and multi player gameplay before release.
If you are interested in being one of the few but brave volunteers tell me (karlisr@matrixgames.com) by email why you qualify before April 8, 2013.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3294061
Come and (try) to get it! 8)
Quote from: Nefaro on March 26, 2013, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: Philippe on March 26, 2013, 01:35:56 PM
But I don't really see the need for the dots in a computer game. The program can do the Line of Sight calculation better than a human can (I'm thinking of the LOS button in the Tiller games, don't know how it works here), and the dots are only needed if you're stretching thread or whatever across a flat surface.
I mentioned the unneeded LOS dots detracting from the great artwork long ago, but they wanted to keep them in. *shrug* Don't really need to hand-place a straight edge yourself, either, but evidentally they wanted that for the tabletop feel (though it was just a chore IMO).
Not to be a cynic, but it could be they already had the artwork in electronic form and didn't want to pay for it to be revised.
Any word on if this would be available on Android tablets? It would be awesome to be able to carry the game around and play while riding in a car/plane etc.
I maybe I'm just a bit jaded but, when was the last time we saw a successful conversion of a board wargame? I don't understand this concept of making a computer game look and play just like a board game, I thought this idea died out long a go. If you want to play a board game then play a board game. Sorry but, shouldn't we expect something more than a cardboard looking hex map and dice in a computer game? Computer wargaming seems to be going backwards, not forwards, when was the last computer RPG with a hex map and dice?
Quote from: SgtRock on March 26, 2013, 07:38:23 PM
I maybe I'm just a bit jaded but, when was the last time we saw a successful conversion of a board wargame?
Awakening the Bear, also published by Matrix. :)
I know the guys who are working on this. I have high hopes. And I should have my hands on some preview code in a couple more weeks.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 26, 2013, 06:35:31 PM
Any word on if this would be available on Android tablets? It would be awesome to be able to carry the game around and play while riding in a car/plane etc.
Just for the PC for the foresee-able future.....
I actually like the fact that there are board game systems being converted to computer format with an AI opponent. However I would love to see a hex and dice RPG game too.
Quote from: SgtRock on March 26, 2013, 07:38:23 PM
I maybe I'm just a bit jaded but, when was the last time we saw a successful conversion of a board wargame? I don't understand this concept of making a computer game look and play just like a board game, I thought this idea died out long a go. If you want to play a board game then play a board game. Sorry but, shouldn't we expect something more than a cardboard looking hex map and dice in a computer game? Computer wargaming seems to be going backwards, not forwards, when was the last computer RPG with a hex map and dice?
1) No mess or worries about the board
getting messed up in the middle of play.
2) No extra calculations, measurements, and rule clarifications.
3) PBEM/Internet multiplayer.
4) An AI to play against.
There are numerous advantages to having a digital version of a tabletop game.
^ All of what Nefaro said
And I wonder if the lack of successful boardgames to computer isn't down to the lack of authenticity.
As I said in another thread (or this one earlier?) a successful boardgame has a "feel" and more often than not a fantastic look. When converting to computer, it loses some of that feel - so why remove more from that successful boardgame by changing other things.
I would suggest, rightly or wrongly, that Conflict of Heroes didn't do as well as it should have on release. I'd alo suggest that it didn't do that well on release because it put alot of the boardgamers off (the boardgame is hugely popular) - and that's one of the reasons why the dev included an authentic mode - a pure boardgame feel. When he did that, I saw quite a few more positive posts than previously.
I actually eventually bought it because it was a computerised conversion of the boardgame - keeping alot of the feel and original rules - and it is a very good conversion.
So for me at least - keeping as much as of the original, successful boardgame in the computer version is essential
Why fix what aint broke?
i don't know about wargames, but pc boardgames with ai lack the excitement of playing them with friends. the boardgame conversion i bought on ios devices were most of the time disappointing as they felt dry and in the end were more like a training tool to get to know the game mechanics. i still think that some of those games would be great on a pc but they should use the possibilities of the pc. this would need that the game designer enhances the design to meet the possibilities of the computer. like a classic mode and an enhanced one. the enhanced mode should be designed by the original designer.
Quote from: Keunert on March 27, 2013, 04:49:50 AM
i don't know about wargames, but pc boardgames with ai lack the excitement of playing them with friends...
I understand that - but for me a boardgame conversion - a good boardgame conversion - is great - especially when that boardgame is not solitaire because I don't play boardgames with other people. In fact I don't play online games with anyone really.
So a multiplayer boardgame being faithfully ported to a PC is a godsend for me.
And it's not like the conversion means the end of the boardgame or groups of people that play them...it just opens up those boardgames that are currently unavailable to people like myself - "loners" if you wish.
None of my current friends are board gamers, let alone war gamers, so games like this scratch an itch that wouldn't be scratched otherwise.
^ some of my itches i prefer to scratch myself too
Quote from: JudgeDredd on March 27, 2013, 05:00:25 AM
Quote from: Keunert on March 27, 2013, 04:49:50 AM
i don't know about wargames, but pc boardgames with ai lack the excitement of playing them with friends...
I understand that - but for me a boardgame conversion - a good boardgame conversion - is great - especially when that boardgame is not solitaire because I don't play boardgames with other people. In fact I don't play online games with anyone really.
So a multiplayer boardgame being faithfully ported to a PC is a godsend for me.
And it's not like the conversion means the end of the boardgame or groups of people that play them...it just opens up those boardgames that are currently unavailable to people like myself - "loners" if you wish.
once the dust is settled ill give you a game or 2
I just got accepted into the Beta, so yay, me. I know what I'll be playing this weekend.
Just curious, people in this beta, is the developer open to the testers discussing the game? That is pretty cool if he is.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 27, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
Just curious, people in this beta, is the developer open to the testers discussing the game? That is pretty cool if he is.
They're under an NDA but they almost certainly have been given some leeway to discuss the game or they wouldn't be saying a thing. :)
Quote from: LongBlade on March 27, 2013, 07:14:48 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 27, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
Just curious, people in this beta, is the developer open to the testers discussing the game? That is pretty cool if he is.
They're under an NDA but they almost certainly have been given some leeway to discuss the game or they wouldn't be saying a thing. :)
That's a nice change since usually under lock and key even announcing your part of the team:)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 27, 2013, 07:15:56 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 27, 2013, 07:14:48 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 27, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
Just curious, people in this beta, is the developer open to the testers discussing the game? That is pretty cool if he is.
They're under an NDA but they almost certainly have been given some leeway to discuss the game or they wouldn't be saying a thing. :)
That's a nice change since usually under lock and key even announcing your part of the team:)
That's typically the golden rule regarding beta NDAs - "If in doubt, only mention that you're in the beta and nothing else." While different companies handle their beta feedback in somewhat different ways, the NDAs are generally all alike.
Of course, some very vague but positive, "you guys are gonna love this" kinda stuff isn't glared at, as long as no details are involved. Here's your chance to be cryptic! :P
I'm glad they've very much kept the boardgame feel to the graphics, in this one. I suppose it's because I don't play tabletops much anymore, and certainly don't have any nearby tabletop wargaming buddies to play against.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 27, 2013, 07:15:56 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 27, 2013, 07:14:48 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 27, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
Just curious, people in this beta, is the developer open to the testers discussing the game? That is pretty cool if he is.
They're under an NDA but they almost certainly have been given some leeway to discuss the game or they wouldn't be saying a thing. :)
That's a nice change since usually under lock and key even announcing your part of the team:)
I should have my hands on preview code in a couple of weeks.
Keep in mind that previews are almost universally positive. Speaking ill of code that is 100% absolutely going to change is very bad practice.
That said, when I write a preview you'll be able to tell by the level of enthusiasm, because if I really like it, I'll make it clear.
I can't wait to see this project final see the light of day! I have 5 or 6 LnL Band of Heroes titles and I love the looks of the images so far! ;D
It's really quite around here :)
Quote from: Richie61 on April 08, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
It's really quite around here :)
We've just been holding our breath.
I've got a request in for preview code. Shouldn't be more than a couple of weeks.
Quote from: Richie61 on April 08, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
It's really quite around here :)
It's in closed beta with an NDA in effect. What do you expect to hear?
It's been fairly quiet too!
Seriously though, if/when the LnL system is ported to the PC and if/when it's a huge success - when does ASL get ported (if ever)? I don't think that it ever will because of Hasbro's digital rights ownership on the game but then again, we never thought we'd see an electronic ASL rulebook either (in production now). Would an ASL-PC be a welcomed thing?
Quote from: tgb on April 08, 2013, 09:44:49 AM
Quote from: Richie61 on April 08, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
It's really quite around here :)
It's in closed beta with an NDA in effect. What do you expect to hear?
Maybe another screen or two or how awesome it's going to be ;D
I'm pretty excited to see this one go live too.
We may have to form a mob and head to Barthheart's house to extract more information from him.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on April 08, 2013, 07:00:35 PM
We may have to form a mob and head to Barthheart's house to extract more information from him.
Kind of like a modern version of Pavlov's House! ;D
Pavlov's House is a scenario in the game. ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg841.imageshack.us%2Fimg841%2F8483%2Fpavlovo.jpg&hash=81f37377f71283d5590b95cafa5cda87e4d6180d)
Bart, are you allowed to say when the new beta phase will be starting?
Looks like Leutnant Wurz ist eine Wurst.
Quote from: tgb on April 09, 2013, 08:36:16 AM
Bart, are you allowed to say when the new beta phase will be starting?
I don't know when so I can help there....
Who you pointing at, Sgt. Baumann?
Thanks for the new screen! It's looking mighty sweet so far!
Hello:
Looks like a few hexes with stacks of 3 squads with a leader? What is the punishment in this game for that kind of bunching up? (In ASL all units took the effects of an effective shot; in things like Combat Mission a mortar attack would result in a lot of deaths in a bunched up stack in the open.)
Thanks,
Gerry
Quote from: Barthheart on April 09, 2013, 07:11:55 AM
Pavlov's House is a scenario in the game. ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg841.imageshack.us%2Fimg841%2F8483%2Fpavlovo.jpg&hash=81f37377f71283d5590b95cafa5cda87e4d6180d)
Quote from: Gerry on April 09, 2013, 05:34:12 PM
Hello:
Looks like a few hexes with stacks of 3 squads with a leader? What is the punishment in this game for that kind of bunching up? (In ASL all units took the effects of an effective shot; in things like Combat Mission a mortar attack would result in a lot of deaths in a bunched up stack in the open.)
Thanks,
Gerry
Yep, bunching up can be deadly. Any fire incoming to the hex can affect everyone in it.
Like ASL, though, having a stack can give you more fire power in one shot. So you have to weigh the risks/rewards.
We previously talked about no 2-floor buildings. Just wondering now are there hills?
Thanks,
Gerry
Quote from: Gerry on April 12, 2013, 09:23:59 AM
We previously talked about no 2-floor buildings. Just wondering now are there hills?
Thanks,
Gerry
Yes there are multi-level hills.
Any plans for a demo of this?
That's good news. But now I don't understand the problems with having multi-level buildings in. Wouldn't hills have similar LOS calculations as multi-level buildings? Good news about the hills though.
Gerry
P.S. How are the scenarios and campaigns? Thanks.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 12, 2013, 09:59:49 AM
Yes there are multi-level hills.
Quote from: Gerry on April 12, 2013, 11:55:00 AM
That's good news. But now I don't understand the problems with having multi-level buildings in. Wouldn't hills have similar LOS calculations as multi-level buildings? Good news about the hills though.
Gerry
P.S. How are the scenarios and campaigns? Thanks.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 12, 2013, 09:59:49 AM
Yes there are multi-level hills.
Hills don't have the problems of having units in the same hex at different levels, ie up stairs - down stairs, of multi-level buildings.
The scenarios are just like the board game versions, tight well tested affairs that usually go down to the last turn, if not the last roll, to see who wins.
The campaigns are an interesting mix of varied scenarios, a little rpg'ing, and intersting gaming. They are fun to play. You feel for the loss of your units.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 12, 2013, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: Gerry on April 12, 2013, 11:55:00 AM
That's good news. But now I don't understand the problems with having multi-level buildings in. Wouldn't hills have similar LOS calculations as multi-level buildings? Good news about the hills though.
Gerry
P.S. How are the scenarios and campaigns? Thanks.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 12, 2013, 09:59:49 AM
Yes there are multi-level hills.
Hills don't have the problems of having units in the same hex at different levels, ie up stairs - down stairs, of multi-level buildings.
The scenarios are just like the board game versions, tight well tested affairs that usually go down to the last turn, if not the last roll, to see who wins.
The campaigns are an interesting mix of varied scenarios, a little rpg'ing, and intersting gaming. They are fun to play. You feel for the loss of your units.
That is all good to hear, especially about the campaigns.
Do you have an idea how long the playtest is scheduled for? Looking for crumbs of course, sorry.
Thanks,
Gerry
Quote from: Gerry on April 14, 2013, 02:31:53 PM
Do you have an idea how long the playtest is scheduled for? Looking for crumbs of course, sorry.
Thanks,
Gerry
No idea how long this playtest will continue. I would guess longer than a month but shorter than a year.... :P Sorry for being vague but that's all I got....
http://youtu.be/wcoOAeNpT4w
saw this over at Matrix
... the reviewer seems to be kind of uninspired on his job, and not into the according boardgames at all, the way he approaches the tactical task given ?
at least we get some pre beta footage :)
if u get bored, at the end of the vid (@19:50) is a glimpse of the second scenario map with tanks
I hope LnL it will be released soon :)
I like what I am seeing. Thanks for sharing the link.
Love the gameplay. The narrator, otoh...
(MG34!!! it's an MG34!!! 34!!! Not a 42!! It's right there on the counter!!! Arggg!)
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 21, 2013, 10:57:43 AM
The narrator, otoh...
(MG34!!! it's an MG34!!! 34!!! Not a 42!! It's right there on the counter!!! Arggg!)
my concern is: If "Mr PewPew -aint got no clue" with his
play like the girl he has to save approach ;) is able
to get a major victory against the AI, i hope the AI put up a tougher fight in the release version. :o
In case any of you missed it
MikeGER shared this down in the Wargaming part of the forum.
That looks pretty sweet. I hope they realize a black dice on a black background is a horrible design decision.
I tried to watch it...but his control was doing my NUT in!
There seems to be a plethora of videos coming onto the net showing games and the person showing them had mouse control OCD. Zooming in, zooming out, scrolling, mouse overs....I really couldn't watch anymore than a couple of minutes!
But...what I did see showed me the game mechanics. I am definitely going to get this...but as I said before - something seems to disappear from a computer translation of a boardgame...and I'm not just talking about book keeping. But it's a definite buy (price permitting)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 21, 2013, 02:44:29 PM
I tried to watch it...but his control was doing my NUT in!
There seems to be a plethora of videos coming onto the net showing games and the person showing them had mouse control OCD. Zooming in, zooming out, scrolling, mouse overs....I really couldn't watch anymore than a couple of minutes!
But...what I did see showed me the game mechanics. I am definitely going to get this...but as I said before - something seems to disappear from a computer translation of a boardgame...and I'm not just talking about book keeping. But it's a definite buy (price permitting)
Yeah, you nailed it right there. Nothing beats actually picking up the counters and rolling the dice. I also like being able to lean back in my chair and take in the entire map all at once as opposed to having to scroll around on a screen.
What really alarms me about that video...and this may be a deal breaker...
but those counters aren't clipped!!!
I wonder if there is a way to turn off those cartoonish overlays that were popping up. It's minor irritation, because otherwise I like what I'm seeing.
"Welcome to the video! I'm a bit of a jittery mess and I'll trip over my own words while not explaining anything happening in the game because I don't seem to understand it myself. Weeeee! Also, I seem to believe that I need to click on every single pixel visible on the screen every ten seconds or I'll die. Rather than explain my moves, I'll just keep changing my mind while offering no basis for my decisions at all, because you're all psychic and stuff, right? Enjoy Oh, and I'll be narrating everything with the same level of interest shown by flight attendants giving the 'here's how to put on the oxygen mask' speech for the 7,031st time." (clickclickclickscrollscrollclickclickscrollscrollscroll...)
1. The game looks good.
2. I really kind of want to punch this guy in the face.
Is that thing with the little girl needing rescue a common occurrence? It seems a bit contrived and would actually make more sense if it happened when playing the Russian side, since she is most likely a Russian child. (No offense to brave Lt Wurtz and his men intended ;)).
confirms day 1 sale - but dear god man please keep still for just a second
Looks very confusing to me. Video was way too fast. I don't see why we need clouds floating over the map unless different weather effects occur, changing conditions. Doesn't look bad at all. Lt. Smirnov make mine a double.
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 21, 2013, 04:48:02 PM
Looks very confusing to me. Video was way too fast. I don't see why we need clouds floating over the map unless different weather effects occur, changing conditions. Doesn't look bad at all. Lt. Smirnov make mine a double.
now you mention that - it looks like a late night, bottle of something on the table relaxing kind of game - im looking forward to it very much
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 21, 2013, 03:51:03 PM
Is that thing with the little girl needing rescue a common occurrence? It seems a bit contrived and would actually make more sense if it happened when playing the Russian side, since she is most likely a Russian child. (No offense to brave Lt Wurtz and his men intended ;)).
IIRC that's a scenario in the boardgame, but I'd have to double check my copy (somewhere in some box) to be sure.
Being in the beta, I'm going to have to check with tptb at Matrix to see how much of the NDA still applies, given that they are putting videos like this up.
Yeah I'm not convinced this guy didn't just screw himself by blowing the NDA.. But anyway....
Cartoony graphics are not final.
Clouds can be turned off if you don't like them.
Little girl appears just once in each campaign German and Russian. She is not from the board game.
To me it seemed the presenter didn't really know the game well. Never explained the mechanics; often tried to do an action that was not possible. Was kinda strange.
In terms of the AI, it seemed easy to drive its fire by moving units in the distance?
Gerry
Quote from: Barthheart on April 21, 2013, 08:13:02 PM
Little girl appears just once in each campaign German and Russian. She is not from the board game.
Roger. maybe it was a conversation I had with Mark a couple of years ago. I remember discussing her in a scenario.
Having watched about half of the video, he certainly doesn't seem to know what he is doing.
Ahh, here is the LnL HoS thread i was looking for yesterday, but didn't found it because of its title
'Tease' , i was thinking it was something from our fine lingerie department ;)
LB please merge this
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=5639.0
up here
note to the beta-team:
please check on the AI to deliver a good fight in single player!
(don't let the probably "its mainly a H2H game"-argument from Matrix slip through,
if someone want to play H2H, there is a free VASSAL module out there -ok, without the rule-enforcement convenience of LnL HoS so, but with an existing community, instead of the often empty Slitherine-portal ...see CoH multiplayer)
I have moved this from the boardgaming forum and am merging it with the ongoing discussion in computer gaming.
All I can say about that video is that the two campaigns (German & Soviet) are story driven, and that video shows the first mission of the German campaign. Individual scenarios (and there are a bunch) are more traditionally wargamey.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 21, 2013, 08:13:02 PM
Yeah I'm not convinced this guy didn't just screw himself by blowing the NDA.
Matrix endorsed that video review in their Facebook page.
For those wondering about the clouds... No. They don't spoil the boardgame feel. I see it as cigarette smoke instead. Lol!
Some more info on what's on the info on the counters....
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg194.imageshack.us%2Fimg194%2F7426%2Fpavlovinfo.jpg&hash=47fad44fbc21555ada4d4e2baedf54138513fb3e)
for those who would like to take a glimpse at LnL rules , sequence of play explained and in action, etc...
I found this read interesting:
http://www.mataka.org/wp/boardgame/lock-n-load-publishings-forgotten-heroes-vietnam-second-edition-review/
...the honor for digging this up goes to wellknown Wodin so
Looking very good, but I am not going to rush on getting this one.
I love boardgames, and I love PC games. Heck, I even like the boardgame version of the LnL BoH. But I really haven't found a good implementation of a boardgame on PC that satisfies me yet.
I do like PC "boardgames" like WITP and TOAW that really utilize the power of the PC to do things that you really couldn't do in cardboard.
But when PC conversions try to be faithful to the boardgame rules...that is when the PC version seems to be forced; Empire in Arms, Conflict of Heroes, WWI, Montjoie! and AH's old Wooden Ships and Iron Men come to mind.
So, I'll sit back and wait for the reviews, and that first sale (OK, since it's Matrix, that means I have to wait five years for the sale...but oh well.)
Quote from: ArizonaTank on April 23, 2013, 11:22:32 AM
Looking very good, but I am not going to rush on getting this one.
I love boardgames, and I love PC games. Heck, I even like the boardgame version of the LnL BoH. But I really haven't found a good implementation of a boardgame on PC that satisfies me yet.
I do like PC "boardgames" like WITP and TOAW that really utilize the power of the PC to do things that you really couldn't do in cardboard.
But when PC conversions try to be faithful to the boardgame rules...that is when the PC version seems to be forced; Empire in Arms, Conflict of Heroes, WWI, Montjoie! and AH's old Wooden Ships and Iron Men come to mind.
So, I'll sit back and wait for the reviews, and that first sale (OK, since it's Matrix, that means I have to wait five years for the sale...but oh well.)
I hear what you are saying. This game does feel different to me. There are a few of things that are being done in the PC version that can't or won't be done in the board game version.
Here's 2:
1) Flanking fire. If you fire on a target through more than one hex side you'll get a +1 firepower modifier. Too fiddly to do with the board game but easy for the PC to keep track of.
2) FoW. Enemy units are not on the on the map until they are in the LoS of at least one of your units. You still have to obey BoH's spotting rules but now you also have true FoW.
Not trying to convince you to buy day 1 but thought you'd like to know that they are using the PC's strengths and still keeping the board game feel.
AI is the biggest problem for most board game conversions. Plus some rules do not translate well to code since they were originally designed for a real human minds to process and are sometimes vague and arbitrary.
Games designed for PC from ground up would make a more better PC game since the game rules are catered to what the developer is capable of coding.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on April 23, 2013, 11:22:32 AM
But when PC conversions try to be faithful to the boardgame rules...that is when the PC version seems to be forced; Empire in Arms, Conflict of Heroes, WWI, Montjoie! and AH's old Wooden Ships and Iron Men come to mind.
My main problem with Montjoie! was that it gave my computer a virus... >:( :'( :P
I actually think Conflict of Heroes was transformed from a game to a bloody good game when they implemented the board game graphics and rules. Still - though - board games always lose something in translation.
I expect this is going to be a great game - but looking at the board game, it's possible the interface could be "clunky" and not really work on a computer game where a board game deals with it fine. One thing that comes to mind is the movement of the AI....how do you program the AI to know the user does not want to initiate Op Fire? You could use a lengthy pause from the AI...but that would get tiresome. You could also implement a popup asking the user - but that too could be tiresome.
The thing is, without inspecting the board - it's difficult to decide if you want to Op Fire - you want to see what else you could use your troops for - so that is a difficult thing to implement.
I'd like to hear from Barthheart actually on how that is implemented.
As for multi-storey buildings - I'm fine with them gone and wish they were so in the board game - because it's another complex level of rule set to deal with from leader activation to dropping/picking up weapons to movement and identifying who is on what level...and then there's LoS! I might even just disregard the multi-level buildings in the board game until I become more familiar with the other rules (one of the reasons I am playing the Carentan scenario is because of the single level buildings
I hope this is good - but I do think if there were a board game out at the same time - I'd go for the board game - given I am getting to know the mechanics.
I am very glad though that they have stayed faithful to the board game look. I think there's something very special about some board game graphics...though I understand they're not everyone's cup of tea and might limit sales.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 24, 2013, 11:31:21 AM
...
One thing that comes to mind is the movement of the AI....how do you program the AI to know the user does not want to initiate Op Fire? You could use a lengthy pause from the AI...but that would get tiresome. You could also implement a popup asking the user - but that too could be tiresome.
The thing is, without inspecting the board - it's difficult to decide if you want to Op Fire - you want to see what else you could use your troops for - so that is a difficult thing to implement.
I'd like to hear from Barthheart actually on how that is implemented.
...
OP fire, I think, is handled very well. To me it's just like playing another person. The AI will move a unit until it comes into LoS of one of your units then the game pauses. You are shown a possible Op Fire opportunity with a line drawn from you unit to the target. If you want to take the shot you push the Fire button, if not push the Pass button. You can scroll the map around to look at the situation for as long as you like until you deside.
If there are more than one of your units that can Op Fire, you can use the nxet/prev buttons to change the firing hex and see what that effect will have on your situation.
If you have more than one unit is a hex that can Op fire you can fire with them all or deselect any number and fire.
It really does feel like playing another person when you say "Stop moving I might want to Op Fire"... "Nah... go on moving" or "Right, this squad in this hex will fire."
It flows pretty well.
I think that the computer version is as good as my board games from the LnL Band of Heroes titles. I have dusted them off and I am playing them with my boys.
I have been really impressed with the state of the beta and what the future of this game holds!
Quote from: Barthheart on April 24, 2013, 11:55:03 AM
You are shown a possible Op Fire opportunity with a line drawn from you unit to the target. If you want to take the shot you push the Fire button, if not push the Pass button.
Not liking this. I'm sure that it's the same way in LnL boardgame as it is in ASL, but one of the strong components of game play; what makes a good ASL player, is the ability to read the situation and respond. Having the computer POINT OUT the solution to you is a spoiler and I hope that it is something that can be toggled on/off. Allow me to respond with Op Fire, but don't SHOW ME the possible shots that I have...I need to be a good enough player to spot those opportunities. That is one reason why this may fail, in my book - if you can't easily see the entire map on the screen at once without the units being 2px x 2px in size as the computer is making its moves, then it will be very difficult to formulate a plan for handling defensive fire (Op Fire I guess it's called in LnL). There's many, many, many times in ASL to where I may not want to defensive fire with one unit while doing so with another that is on the other end of my lane of fire. I need to be able to see all of that however when playing and I'm afraid that the computer version will be very centered on just the moving piece. I don't know - maybe you can zoom in/out while the PC is moving? Still, this is one of the things that frustrates me when playing ASL on VASL with larger maps. You just miss things that you wouldn't otherwise if the boardgame was set up on a table. Then again, from the scenarios that I've seen from BoH, the maps look really small so maybe that's not an issue. In ASL, especially in HASL (HIstorical ASL), the maps can be fairly large.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 24, 2013, 11:55:03 AM
You can scroll the map around to look at the situation for as long as you like until you deside.
The computer won't mind but I know when playing ASL you feel that tension of "come on, it's reaction fire - not chess - make your move!". That will be another element missing from the computer game.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 24, 2013, 11:55:03 AM
If there are more than one of your units that can Op Fire, you can use the nxet/prev buttons to change the firing hex and see what that effect will have on your situation.
Another advantage that the computer will give players that the boardgame doesn't give you. It's something else that the computer will calculate for you; you can be a lax/lazy player and just have the computer show you the plusses and minuses of your actions. No need to calculate any of that in your head! I'm being sarcastic obviously... I think that's yet another HUGE element that ruin the effect of playing the boardgame but on a computer. That's exactly why I've gone from playing only PC games to now mostly playing board wargames. I LIKE having to add up and compute the odds manually. I LIKE having to decide to shoot or not; and do I have a line of sight or not? Dunno, if I fire and it hits the building, I'll know then. Not when the computer shows me that I have a shot and I just decide "shoot or no shoot". I'm ranting but this is why I think ASL would not translate good as a computer game with AI either.
The biggest element lost however will be two people sitting together at a table, picking up the counters, rolling the dice, bluffing, snarling, laughing, sighing....
GJK -
Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it. I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.
It sounds like this game just won't be for you.
Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure that I'll pick it up however or at least try the demo if there is one. I think that I've gone full circle in my wargaming. I, like so many of us, started out on boardgames in our teens and of course everything there you have to do manually. Then the PC evolution hit and it was like "cool, it figures out my combat odds for me and will move my pieces to where I say to go and even control some units that I don't want to deal with!". And then I felt like I was getting out of touch in my gaming, at least in the hex and counter games. It just seemed like there was a lot less pondering, a lot less "edge of the seat" decision making. I dunno. Maybe it's just a symptom of mid-life crisis. I think I'll go buy some skinny jeans and hop into my convertable Porsche and cruise the blvd tonight instead of sitting home wargaming..... :)
Quote from: tgb on April 26, 2013, 06:17:21 AM
GJK -
Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it. I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.
It sounds like this game just won't be for you.
That brings up a question for me on LnL rules; do you get free LOS checks in the game? I know in ASL, if you decide to check a close LOS in defensive fire, you have to take the shot whether the LOS is obstructed or not (and there's a chance that a MG can Malf. if you do so).
Quote from: GJK on April 26, 2013, 06:41:27 AM
Quote from: tgb on April 26, 2013, 06:17:21 AM
GJK -
Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it. I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.
It sounds like this game just won't be for you.
That brings up a question for me on LnL rules; do you get free LOS checks in the game? I know in ASL, if you decide to check a close LOS in defensive fire, you have to take the shot whether the LOS is obstructed or not (and there's a chance that a MG can Malf. if you do so).
Yes, in LnL you can check LoS at any time for free.
You are also free to inspect any stack on the board at any time... as long as your opponent isn't bigger than you... that last part is actually in the rules. ;)
I agree with you Gary that playing the against an AI or even another person across a PC will never replace the fun of playing someone face to face. There is nothing like groaning or cheering to throw your opponent off, laughing at impossible shots that are made etc. But I don't see PC games as replacing that. I see them as a suppliment to my dead tree play.
The way that LnL plays on the PC, I still feel the tension of what to do next.... do I move these guys the shortest path across the open street and possibly get mowed down or do I take the long covered route that will delay the rest of my plans and possible cost me the game.... do I take the op fire shot or hold for a more important target... will there be a more important target?
I enjoy these games on the PC when I don't have the time to do the setup or crunch the numbers and just want to plan and think and blast away. When I have the time I really enjoy taking the cardboard out and setting up the pieces and rolling the dice. Just two different kinds of fun. 8)
Quote from: GJK on April 26, 2013, 06:41:27 AM
Quote from: tgb on April 26, 2013, 06:17:21 AM
GJK -
Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it. I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity.
It sounds like this game just won't be for you.
That brings up a question for me on LnL rules; do you get free LOS checks in the game? I know in ASL, if you decide to check a close LOS in defensive fire, you have to take the shot whether the LOS is obstructed or not (and there's a chance that a MG can Malf. if you do so).
I agree completely with the first part...
Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it. I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity. but not the second. I never understood the ASL rule that you had to fire after making a line of sight check even it you found you had none. Why would I fire if I looked across a field and determined that I couldn't see what it is I was considering firing at. Isn't that the reason why you look....to see that you do have a line of sight? I've never been in the military and combat so maybe I just don't understand it well enough. Help me to get it.
Quote from: Rayfer on April 26, 2013, 09:53:25 AM
I agree completely with the first part...Everything you dislike about how OpFire works is what I like about it. I don't want to have to check LOS on every unit each time the computer pauses in it's turn for an OpFire opportunity. but not the second. I never understood the ASL rule that you had to fire after making a line of sight check even it you found you had none. Why would I fire if I looked across a field and determined that I couldn't see what it is I was considering firing at. Isn't that the reason why you look....to see that you do have a line of sight? I've never been in the military and combat so maybe I just don't understand it well enough. Help me to get it.
Machinegunner: "I thought I saw some men running across that street so I shot". "Must of only been shadows". "I thought that I heard something across the street in that building". Those are just some of the explanations for that rule if you ask an ASL player about it.
What constitutes checking an LOS in ASL? Putting a ruler to the map and testing center to center? Can you simply line up the shooter with a potential target with your eyes and take a guess first?
Quote from: Ubercat on April 26, 2013, 10:09:05 AM
What constitutes checking an LOS in ASL? Putting a ruler to the map and testing center to center? Can you simply line up the shooter with a potential target with your eyes and take a guess first?
People usually use thread or dental floss or kite string. In ASL it works like this: your opponent is in his Movement Phase. As he moves squad/stack from hex to hex, you're watching closely and if you *think* that you have a shot and want to take it, you do. By "think" I mean if you eye-ball it and think it's clear then take the shot if you want. If you pause the move and say "nah, nevermind, I don't think that I have LOS", then no harm-no foul and the opponent continues on with his/her (?) move. If they are moving and you interrupt and say, "I'm going to snap that line" and you break out the thread and measure it - you are committed to the shot whether or not there is a LOS. If there is no LOS AND you have support weapons (SW) firing (machineguns usually), you still roll for the attack but no results will impact the moving units BUT you could roll and break your SW (ran out of bullets, overheated, freakin' melted or just plain jammed). I think it's a cool aspect of ASL and having free LOS checks would freak me out in LnL! :o
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 21, 2013, 03:51:03 PM
Is that thing with the little girl needing rescue a common occurrence? It seems a bit contrived and would actually make more sense if it happened when playing the Russian side, since she is most likely a Russian child. (No offense to brave Lt Wurtz and his men intended ;)).
Nazi-centricity in WW2 games is an endemic problem. Do your part to curb such behavior! ;)
..because Germany brought a bunch of children with them to Stalingrad? Or were they in the business of rescuing Soviet civilians? ::)
Quote from: Nefaro on May 07, 2013, 05:48:32 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 21, 2013, 03:51:03 PM
Is that thing with the little girl needing rescue a common occurrence? It seems a bit contrived and would actually make more sense if it happened when playing the Russian side, since she is most likely a Russian child. (No offense to brave Lt Wurtz and his men intended ;)).
Nazi-centricity in WW2 games is an endemic problem. Do your part to curb such behavior! ;)
..because Germany brought a bunch of children with them to Stalingrad? Or were they in the business of rescuing Soviet civilians? ::)
Good grief guys! This has nothing to do with Nazi worship. If you'd ever met Mark you'd understand that.
It's one scenario at the start of the German campaign. The Germans are not "rescuing" the girl from the "Evil Russians". She's a non-combatant trapped in a fire fight. Your character decides to have a little humanity and try to keep her from getting killed by either side. The Russians do NOT try and kill her. Since they are run by the AI they totally ignore her. The only way she can get hurt is if you or the AI shot into or through her hex.
Mark is just injecting some story elements into the campaign.... you know .... character development.
There are other civilians in the game as well.
There's even a Russian nurse that can save yer Russian ass in the middle of a fire fight.
There are lots of things in both campaigns.... Not just blowing shit up....
I love playing as the Germans in ANY game - I don't know why...maybe there's a wee bit of the fascist in me - or maybe it's because they had cooler kit.
One thing I do know is it's not a way for me to imagine killing Americans, Brits or Russkies. ;D
i would love to play a scenario with a wounded dog.
is that possible or is it part of an extension?
Quote from: Barthheart on May 08, 2013, 05:34:15 AM
Good grief guys! This has nothing to do with Nazi worship. If you'd ever met Mark you'd understand that.
Maybe not, but it gave me the opportunity to rant about how WW2 games often cater to ze German side more than any other. Must be a supply & demand thing because there seems to be a lot of Nazi militaria worship in Groggish circles, easily evidenced by how many people always choose that side over others.
::)
Cooler kit plus the challenge of 'they lost, could I do better', does not equal agreement with their philosophies.
Besides which, not even some Nazis agreed with their philosophies. Many were giving it lip service for various reasons, but then helped other people out when they could. (It's generally acknowledged for example that Atlantic U-boat officers were routinely more merciful to victimized crews than our American officers operating in the Pacific theater.)
Real-life Nazis weren't all evil-doing Stormtrooper clones all the time, just like real-life American troops weren't all do-gooding GI Joes all the time.
That being said, it's also certainly good to remember that we're playing the (overall) bad-guys in our cops and robbers games: someone has to play the robber or there isn't a game, but it's chilling to recall that when we're Rommelling along in Panzer General (or Panzer Corps nowadays), we'd be enslaving and murdering millions of people if doing the same in real life -- and Rommel was a 'good' Nazi!
(My German teacher during my senior year in college was a next-door neighbor to the Rommels as a little girl; she hated the Nazis with a passion but liked to tell stories about what a great guy Rommel was. :) )
Quote from: Nefaro on May 08, 2013, 06:25:50 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on May 08, 2013, 05:34:15 AM
Good grief guys! This has nothing to do with Nazi worship. If you'd ever met Mark you'd understand that.
Maybe not, but it gave me the opportunity to rant about how WW2 games often cater to ze German side more than any other. Must be a supply & demand thing because there seems to be a lot of Nazi militaria worship in Groggish circles, easily evidenced by how many people always choose that side over others.
FWIW - playing WTO i always play Germans - their tanks, the mg42, the uniforms, plus the 'can i succeed where they failed' is a draw i cant refuse
PTO - always the Japanese - the Zero, the Bettys, the Carriers - all their shits cooler, and the succeed/failure draw again
If it was Star Wars id be the Empire - its got Darth Vader FFS, tie fighters and the Death Star, and the succeed/failure
i think the common theme here is grogs are not drawn to nazi worship, theyre drawn to seeing if they can do better because we're such pain in the ass perfectionist OCD weirdos
and im proud to be one
a grog
not a nazi :P
^^ See, I'm not so much interested in playing the Empire, because THEY HAD ALREADY WON! From a probabilistic standpoint, the Rebels are more interesting to me, because they pulled a win out of the ass of the Force (in effect) several times.
Similarly, I have no particular compunction to play the British in an American Revolution game, despite them having better kit and a much more awesome look: they really should have won, it's the other side who kept suffering ridiculous losses and setbacks under harsher conditions.
I'm about balanced when it comes to WW2 Eastern Front for different reasons: scrappy desperate Russian popular fighting vs. Hugo Boss Panzers vs. the tidal wave of communist tyranny (or is it righteous avengement?)
Kind of balanced on American Civil War preferences, too; or I would be except I'm a territorial Tennesseean. ;)
Russia and the Central Powers (whether Austria, Germany or Turkey) each more provide attractive challenges to me in WW1, despite being on opposite sides; I couldn't care less about playing France, Britain or the USA. (Unless it's an air fight, where the sides are more-or-less equal, desperate, chivalrous and colorful.)
Oh and spain/portugal in the EU games - they're just quintesessentially medieval to me - this as a brit who takes his daughter to a playground next to a castle every weekend, but medieval spain is so much more sexy and cool
What castle?
You can sometimes still play "the losers" in a WWII game without playing as Germany. When available, I usually like to see if I can hold out longer as Poland or France.
I know that every time I play the Nazi's in WW2 wargames I'm thinking "I will get payback for what was done to Germany in the Treaty of Versailles!!!". I also do the little Hitler stomp every time France falls....
Well watching the video, there are some questions.
- Comic based story telling
- Why did they add comics? (they don't even look that good)
- I thought this was a straight port of the board game?
Map size and starting positions
- Are stating positions fixed, always a single approach to combat?
- Do forces always start so close to each other?
- Are all maps this small?
- How many maps?
Campaigns
- Is the Russian campaign just playing the other side of the German campaign, same maps same forces?
Game System (I'm not familiar with)
- Units, number of men per squad?
- Loses aren't tracked by number of men? (it seems odd to me a game at this scale wouldn't track losses by men)
- Close quarter combat seems very simplistic?
Quote from: SgtRock on May 08, 2013, 09:45:46 AM
Well watching the video, there some things.
- Comic based story telling
- Why did they add comics? (they don't even look that good)
- I thought this was a straight port of the board game?
The story telling is only for the campaigns. Mark Walker, creator of the board and PC game, is also a writer by trade and wanted an interesting way to tie the campaign scenarios together other than just timeline. You are a leader counter on the board. If your counter dies the campaign ends. You can gain campaign points for certain things and heroic acts. These can be used to get you more troops and inprove your own abilities.
Again this is just for the 2 campaigns.
Art work is not final... I think.
The actual play of the game is a straight port of the board game... with a few additions like flanking fire.
There are many stand alone scenarios that you can play against the AI or online against other players.
Quote
Map size and starting positions
- Are stating positions fixed, always a single approach to combat?
- Do forces always start so close to each other?
- Are all maps this small?
- How many maps?
As in the board game, some scenarios have fixed starting positions some allow the players to setup.
This is a tactical level squad based game. It's all about close in fighting.
Maps range from 1 map panel up to I think 8 panels in a 4 x 2 layout. There are some large battles with lots of units on each side.
There are lots of map panels, 15+, and are combined into lots of combinations.
Quote
Campaigns
- Is the Russian campaign just playing the other side of the German campaign, same maps same forces?
Nope. The 2 campaigns are different. Some scenarios might be the same but most are different. In each you play a leader in that army.
Quote
Game System (I'm not familiar with)
- Units, number of men per squad?
- Loses aren't tracked by number of men? (it seems odd to me a game at this scale wouldn't track losses by men)
- Close quarter combat seems very simplistic?
To help you get familiar, go here to download a free print and play version of the board game, including rules :
http://www.locknloadgame.com/_siteFiles/downloads/Vierville-LNL-BOH-PlayDEMO.zip
Units are squads of about 10 - 12 men, weapon teams of about 2-5 men, single man counters for leaders, medics, sniper, heroes, etc., single vehicles.
Losses don't track individual soldiers because this is a straight port of the board game. Squads become half squads become dead squads.
Melee combat can be quick and very deadly, or it can continue for many turns until there is a victor.
Hope that helps. 8)
As to combat being "simplistic", again, this is based on a board game, so all combat results are determined by 1 or 2 d6. However, there are a lot of factors that modify the dice roll.
Most of the games in this series have those little story elements, so it isn't like this is new for this PC version. It can be events triggered by gaining line of sight to a hex, entering a building, capturing an objective, or sometimes rolling against a random results table. Sometimes it's an ambush, sometimes reinforcements showing up, sometimes a lone French veteran of WW1 running out with an ancient rifle when he sees US paratroopers and shouting his fool head off until every German in the area has been alerted (yes, that actually is one). It all just adds a nice little extra bit of flavor to the scenario. It certainly has nothing to do with some ridiculous notion of 'Nazi-centricity'.
I remember that the little girl issue came up 4 or 5 or more years ago when computer Band of Heroes put out some of the very first screenshots. Walker was told how stupid the story was back then and frankly I'm surprised that he didn't listen and it's still in there. Adding a storyline to the scenario is cool. ASL has done it since back in the Squad Leader days with the scenario intro and then the historical outcomes, but putting in a little girl - that opens up the door to all kinds of whacky speculation. "Are the Germans saving her from rape and torture by the Soviets??". "What will the Germans do with this little girl once they've secured her away from the immediate area?". The only games that a pre-teen little girl character belongs in is the Game of Life (when you add the baby to the back of your car) and the Barbie and Skipper shopping game.
Hey! I only picked one nit. Let's not get carried away here... ;)
I don't suppose this whole little girl story could be possibly historical, could it? If someone did a L&L mission where a western Soviet town resisted the German advance for a victorious number of turns, and the writers said at the end that the town had to surrender anyway but because they lasted so long ADOLF FREAKING HITLER HIMSELF CAME OUT TO CONGRATULATE AND HONOR THEM, would anyone think that was a goofy plot, too?
Because that actually no kidding happened. (I think I recall seeing that on the documentary "Russia's War: Blood on the Snow". In color footage no less, if I recall correctly.)
I thought Hitler had died in that movie theater by then.
I'm just saying - it opens up doors that need not be opened as hence we've seen 5+ years ago and still do to this day. A story line is fine and adds to the immersion, sure. A little girl in a male dominated niche market (males most likely 35+) that covers WWII on the Eastern Front does nothing to entice someone that would be interested in this game series to want to play it more. If a scenario had Hitler arrive on the battlefield and his counter could come under attack, then that would be something that might entice more wargamers; whether that is historically accurate or not.
In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.
Quote from: SgtRock on May 08, 2013, 09:40:14 PM
In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.
We are close to getting into what is the equivalent of the "Milan 18" thread for ASL that is 100 pages long on Gamesquad here. Yes, yes, yes, civilians were unfortunate casualties of war at extremely high rates back in WW2 but do we want to
simulate that? You make my point here. As Grogheads, we want to simulate the nicer points of warfare, soldiers killing soldiers!
At any rate, I'll dr
top out of the conversation unless called upon directly. I am looking forward to seeing how well this game is received. I think that it can be both a blessing and a curse for similar games depending on the success of this release. I think what hinges most on that is the strength of the AI. IF he computer opponent can put up a good fight each time (and doesn't become predicatble) then I think that this will be a great game. IF the computer AI is weak or easily overcome and thus the best/only way to play this is vs live opponents, then I don't see any advantage of this over the VASSAL module other than rules enforcement. And if that is worth the cost of the game alone, then I anxiously await the reviews that compare the two.
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 08, 2013, 06:07:38 PM
...where a western Soviet town resisted the German advance...at the end that the town had to surrender anyway...
If there's any truth in Anthony Beevors book Berlin I can say there are likely an awful lot of Russians and villages that may well NOT have resisted German occupation if they knew how they were going to be treated by their own countrymen when they were eventually "rescued" by them!
Quote from: tgb on May 08, 2013, 07:16:24 PM
I thought Hitler had died in that movie theater by then.
Heh, I saw what you did there.
They've just opened up the books (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3294061) and are looking for more beta testers. Here's a chance for those of you bitching about the campaign to have your voices heard before release.
Quote from: GJK on May 08, 2013, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: SgtRock on May 08, 2013, 09:40:14 PM
In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.
We are close to getting into what is the equivalent of the "Milan 18" thread for ASL that is 100 pages long on Gamesquad here. Yes, yes, yes, civilians were unfortunate casualties of war at extremely high rates back in WW2 but do we want to simulate that? You make my point here. As Grogheads, we want to simulate the nicer points of warfare, soldiers killing soldiers!
At any rate, I'll dr
top out of the conversation unless called upon directly. I am looking forward to seeing how well this game is received. I think that it can be both a blessing and a curse for similar games depending on the success of this release. I think what hinges most on that is the strength of the AI. IF he computer opponent can put up a good fight each time (and doesn't become predicatble) then I think that this will be a great game. IF the computer AI is weak or easily overcome and thus the best/only way to play this is vs live opponents, then I don't see any advantage of this over the VASSAL module other than rules enforcement. And if that is worth the cost of the game alone, then I anxiously await the reviews that compare the two.
If you really want to simulate war, then yes, civilians should be in more war games! Not knowing if that group of people down the road are civilians or friendly/enemy adds a lot vs. old model of John Wayne good guys vs bad. We have a very odd view (black & white) of war in the west, maybe more games, movies, etc should show how uncertain, messy, and unclear war really is. There is a hell of a lot more to a battle or war than just who has the best tanks or planes.
Games like CMFS & CM Afghanistan would have been 10x more real if civilians were included. Civilians had been part of war like it or not from the first war to today, there are a lot of unknowns in war and a civilian showing up wrong time/place, a dog barking giving away your position, etc, etc. War is one the most uncertain of all human endeavors (you can win all the battles and still losing the war).
Quote from: tgb on May 09, 2013, 05:33:28 PM
They've just opened up the books (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3294061) and are looking for more beta testers. Here's a chance for those of you bitching about the campaign to have your voices heard before release.
This is a game I'd love to get my hands on - but NOT one I would like to beta test - it would take too much away from the fun when it's actually out
Quote from: SgtRock on May 09, 2013, 11:19:35 PM
Games like CMFS & CM Afghanistan would have been 10x more real if civilians were included. Civilians had been part of war like it or not from the first war to today, there are a lot of unknowns in war and a civilian showing up wrong time/place, a dog barking giving away your position, etc, etc.
IIRC, civilians (density could be set in the scenario) are included in CM series in an abstract way.
They influence spotting, spotting of IEDs (trigger man) and VBIEDs, also there are victory conditions possible that some buildings/areas could not be flattend without a large victory point penalty.
Quote(you can win all the battles and still losing the war)
IMHO, since WW II all wars were lost at the homefront!
Cause of
preemptive Political Correctness for the enemy stirred up by some media and the chamberlainien-part of the population, speaking out against a given war.
But who nowadays tenfold their own little view of things against the
'We are determined to win' / 'Don't shad a tear about enemy second-line/bystanders/helpershelper getting damaged' / 'Support the troops' quiet-majority of the population, utilizing those old 'n new media outlets and all kind off news-coverage and enemy propaganda-feed forwarding, against a given war, helping the enemy (who ironically would/or has already killed those very ppl. in-country, if given a chance to infiltrate nonregulars or get an airstrike through to th e homeland)
In Guerilla warfare (now called asymetric war) the regular faction has to win, the Gurilia only has to last ...to win in the end
PS: could someone pleeease change the thread title ! ... i allways thing its about Lingerie, seeing the title + the number of posts and views ;)
Quote from: SgtRock on May 09, 2013, 11:19:35 PM
Quote from: GJK on May 08, 2013, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: SgtRock on May 08, 2013, 09:40:14 PM
In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.
We are close to getting into what is the equivalent of the "Milan 18" thread for ASL that is 100 pages long on Gamesquad here. Yes, yes, yes, civilians were unfortunate casualties of war at extremely high rates back in WW2 but do we want to simulate that? You make my point here. As Grogheads, we want to simulate the nicer points of warfare, soldiers killing soldiers!
At any rate, I'll dr
top out of the conversation unless called upon directly. I am looking forward to seeing how well this game is received. I think that it can be both a blessing and a curse for similar games depending on the success of this release. I think what hinges most on that is the strength of the AI. IF he computer opponent can put up a good fight each time (and doesn't become predicatble) then I think that this will be a great game. IF the computer AI is weak or easily overcome and thus the best/only way to play this is vs live opponents, then I don't see any advantage of this over the VASSAL module other than rules enforcement. And if that is worth the cost of the game alone, then I anxiously await the reviews that compare the two.
If you really want to simulate war, then yes, civilians should be in more war games! Not knowing if that group of people down the road are civilians or friendly/enemy adds a lot vs. old model of John Wayne good guys vs bad. We have a very odd view (black & white) of war in the west, maybe more games, movies, etc should show how uncertain, messy, and unclear war really is. There is a hell of a lot more to a battle or war than just who has the best tanks or planes.
Games like CMFS & CM Afghanistan would have been 10x more real if civilians were included. Civilians had been part of war like it or not from the first war to today, there are a lot of unknowns in war and a civilian showing up wrong time/place, a dog barking giving away your position, etc, etc. War is one the most uncertain of all human endeavors (you can win all the battles and still losing the war).
Well, personally I can live without my wargames simulating killing civillians. In any event - what would be the point of it ? Do the germans get points for killing more civillians ? that was after all in many cases a specific objective of theirs. As was allied bombing - which again is simulated to a certain degree in games that cover that.
In any event - CM and CMSF do simulate it to a certain extent in that you can set certain objectives to lose you points if you destroy them. So that building in the middle of town is a refugee camp and if you detraoy it you lose points. I dont see the point of graphically depicting that.
Yes - war is a nasty business - but watch a few of the more graphic videos from the conflict in syria and see just how many light years away any wargame is from simulating just how bestial and nasty it actually is - so its a moot point to a large extent.