I found this article interesting although most of the proposed alternatives have been suggested in the past and never panned out. Rumors of the demise of the supercarrier are greatly exaggerated.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03/replacing-aircraft-carriers/all/
Very interesting article.
Thanks, Mirth. Good stuff.
I think the author is missing some rather important points.
first the DF-21 hasnt been proven to work yet but our ABMs on escorts have and were going to have energy weapons before to long.
second is the fact that the US way of war IS overwhelming firepower. hes seems to have forgotten this after a decade of insurgency warfare in 3rd world countries.
one of the best ways to deliver that precision firepower are aircraft. at this point Ive read far to many accounts of Naval aviation saving some grunts ass.
our carriers are not that vulnerable. they were designed to head into the North Sea and play with the Soviet Navy. China is far away from providing that kind of
threat enviornment. DF-21s..... try scores of Backfires each carrying 2 or 3 supersonic ASM. carriers are a great power projector, force multiplier, big stick and
humanitarian aid platform.
I recommend reading the full study, if you haven't already. Not that I agree with all the points, but the author gives much more detailed support of his positions than what is stated in the Wired article.
http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/publications/CNAS%20Carrier_Hendrix_FINAL.pdf (http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/publications/CNAS%20Carrier_Hendrix_FINAL.pdf)
And it has a cool cover ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1252.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh561%2Fgrovesby%2F33042178-69c4-44fb-9b1c-452ba26e0b13_zpsa0093d25.jpg&hash=b8ee98de4d35d21656bd25de8ca993989e5078b8)
I am not arguing any points at this time but the brash overconfidence in a finite asset just gives me the creeps.
It is not like the people who would like to neutralise them are playing Angry Birds all the whole day long.
How many times does the same lesson has to be learnt? Systems evolve over time and eventually one gives
way to another, usually in some Agincourt WTF? type of disaster. Battleship admirals are no more. They did not
think they were out evolved but they were. Warfare is becoming more and more an "if you can find it you can kill it"
situation.
Quote from: Longdan on March 23, 2013, 11:15:41 AM
Warfare is becoming more and more an "if you can find it you can kill it" situation.
If it came to a shooting war, it could well be a difficult proposition for the Chinese to find a CVBG. It's not like we'd just leave their satellite's alone to provide targeting for the DF-21s (presuming they work as advertised to begin with). As Star noted, the US Navy has decades of planning on how to defend CVBGs from mass missile attacks.
no Dan, no one is standing still and lettting grass grow around there feet. and yes a carrier CVBG is a very expensive thing. thats why its protected so well.
I'm not saying it is hopeless or silly or obsolescent but the guy with the incredibly fancy club was surprised when he got shot by an arrow.
It is not like we haven't been caught with our pants down a time or two. "It won't happen this time" is thinking like a drunk.
Nobody thought airliners could make good cruise missiles. I was working that day and it was not pretty. It was chaos.
I would feel more comfortable to hear people who claim to be in the know say something like "We are very concerned about these threats and realise
that we have to be flexible in our response and are therefore not putting all the eggs in one basket."
Instead of fanbois yelling, "Yahoo! Here we come!! Eat Neutrons MotherHumpers!!" shortly followed by "What was that?"
When was the last time things worked out right? The unexpected is, after all, unexpected. That is all.
I dont discount possible threats due to ego. its made me a rather effective wargamer. nor do I discount the growing threat of the PLA Navy. there are however certain facts that most people that write such articles just dont seem to know about or care to research. we've been operating a serious blue water nave since WW1. we have 2 wars and a 50 year Cold War of anti submarine/ anti-asm operations under our belt. not theory but actual combat ops. the western Pacific is just as carpeted with SOSUS nets as the Atlantic. our submarine operations are focused on the Pacific and Indian oceans. while all of our subs are nuclear all of our allies have very capable SSKs. I expect that in a full up war with China we would, at some point, lose a carrier. the Chinese would lose their whole navy. thats not hubris.
People's Liberation Army Navy. That still cracks me up.
so does the idea of a PLAN blue water navy.
for now.
Pretty funny. I do not discount your arguments Star and I said as much. I have had first hand experience with what happened
the the North Am Air defense and Air traffic system, the very best in the world, when some guys with boxcutters pulled a fast one.
I would however very much like to see a resurgance of the frigate. our Perry class were very effective for what they were. and while the Burke class simply badass I sometimes think its to many eggs in one basket.
Except that we've cranked out a shitload of Burkes. The most successful class of destroyer in history. Those ships absolutely rock. It was very smart of the Navy to reopen the line.
For some reason I have just loved Arleigh Burke since the first Harpoon
Quote from: Longdan on March 23, 2013, 04:44:52 PM
For some reason I have just loved Arleigh Burke since the first Harpoon
You mean the 360 Pacific Harpoon? I played the hell out of that buggy bitch.
Oh yeah. I went nuts over that. I could play it at work on night shift on the bosses' computer.
The operational computers couldn't handle it but the admin machine could. Who could believe nowadays that such incredible excitement could take
so freakin' long and crash so much!?
Quote from: mirth on March 23, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
Except that we've cranked out a shitload of Burkes. The most successful class of destroyer in history. Those ships absolutely rock. It was very smart of the Navy to reopen the line.
63 so far. thats a lot of naval firepower with an AGEIS system. at over 9000 tons Im sure someone decided to use the term Destroyer just to get the funding past Congress (theyre not that smart you know). the ships are crusiers to me and they weigh the same as Tico's.
crafty squids.
IIRC we also ordered two more of each Littoral Combat Ship. I would think that in a SHTF fight with something like the PLAN they would get grouped with carrier groups and take the picket missions that FFG-7s used to do.
Quote from: Longdan on March 23, 2013, 04:58:32 PM
Oh yeah. I went nuts over that. I could play it at work on night shift on the bosses' computer.
The operational computers couldn't handle it but the admin machine could. Who could believe nowadays that such incredible excitement could take
so freakin' long and crash so much!?
I played it in my girlfriend's Mac back in the day. I would spend hours getting into position to launch an Alpha Strike on the Soviets only to have the game crash as my planes were in the air.
But there was nothing like it!!
Absolutely. No matter how many times the thing crashed, I went right back to it!
The first time my little Norwegian missile boats launched their penguins I almost splortzed.
I remember that too. What was that scenario? Dawn Patrol maybe? Couple of Norwegian missile boats against a couple of Soviet Osas.
Yep.
QuoteDAWN PATROL, SMALL MISSILE BOAT ENGAGEMENT
1.1 Background: The coast of Norway is made up of fjords and islands with high, rocky coasts. This is a perfect place for small surface craft to operate because the rock walls make them hard to spot on radar, and the short detection ranges make their smaller SSMs more useful than in open ocean. Additionally, there are so many fjords and other places to hide such that no navy can afford enough large craft to do the job.
1.2 Red Orders: You are the commander of a squadron of light Soviet missile frigates. You have left your home port and are cruising south along the coast. Attack any and all enemy surface crafts encountered.
1.3 Intelligence Brief: The Norwegian Navy, backed by NATO forces,
is struggling to retain control of the Norwegian sea. If Soviet forces can gain sea control they can seize vital bases along the coast.
These shorten the distances for Soviet ships and aircraft attacking NATO targets in the Atlantic, and allow attacks on NATO units that try to reach Soviet targets.
1.4 Minimum Victory Conditions: Destroy at least one NATO vessel, frigate or larger, and severely damage two other NATO vessels.
NATO
1.1 Background: The coast of Norway is made up of fjords and islands with high, rocky coasts. This is a perfect place for small surface craft to operate because the rock walls make them hard to spot on radar, and the short detection ranges make their smaller SSMs more useful than in open ocean. Additionally, there are so many fjords and other places to hide such that no navy can afford enough large craft to do the job.
1.2 Blue Orders: You are the commander of two squadrons of Norwegian warships. Coastal spotters have reported some large Soviet missile craft moving into your sector. Spread out and move north from your present position, searching along the coastline. Maintain an average speed of 10 knots in order to cover your area in a timely manner.
1.3 Intelligence Brief: The Soviet forces are struggling to control the Norwegian Sea and the coastline. This means finding and destroying Norwegian and other NATO surface units. Once those forces have been diminished, amphibious landings will be made on the coast. These shorten the distances for Soviet ships and aircraft attacking NATO targets in the Atlantic and allow attacks on NATO units that try to reach Soviet targets.
1.4 Minimum Victory Conditions: Disable or destroy at least two Soviet ships.
Mentioning the Osa/Komars brought back a memory.
In 1973, before the Yom Kippur war, there was going to be a missile test outside of the Syrian port, Latakia.
Somehow we picked up on it. USS Vreeland quickly was loaded with an intel van on the fantail and sped over to record the event.
Vreeland had no sooner gotten off the coast, in International waters when four Osa parked themselves on her quarters and ordered the ship to leave the area.
Apparently, this had been covered in the captain's orders, and she moved out another ten miles out to sea before the missile fire.
Was not there and cannot recall any more details.
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 24, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
Yep.
QuoteDAWN PATROL, SMALL MISSILE BOAT ENGAGEMENT
1.1 Background: The coast of Norway is made up of fjords and islands with high, rocky coasts. This is a perfect place for small surface craft to operate because the rock walls make them hard to spot on radar, and the short detection ranges make their smaller SSMs more useful than in open ocean. Additionally, there are so many fjords and other places to hide such that no navy can afford enough large craft to do the job.
1.2 Red Orders: You are the commander of a squadron of light Soviet missile frigates. You have left your home port and are cruising south along the coast. Attack any and all enemy surface crafts encountered.
1.3 Intelligence Brief: The Norwegian Navy, backed by NATO forces,
is struggling to retain control of the Norwegian sea. If Soviet forces can gain sea control they can seize vital bases along the coast.
These shorten the distances for Soviet ships and aircraft attacking NATO targets in the Atlantic, and allow attacks on NATO units that try to reach Soviet targets.
1.4 Minimum Victory Conditions: Destroy at least one NATO vessel, frigate or larger, and severely damage two other NATO vessels.
NATO
1.1 Background: The coast of Norway is made up of fjords and islands with high, rocky coasts. This is a perfect place for small surface craft to operate because the rock walls make them hard to spot on radar, and the short detection ranges make their smaller SSMs more useful than in open ocean. Additionally, there are so many fjords and other places to hide such that no navy can afford enough large craft to do the job.
1.2 Blue Orders: You are the commander of two squadrons of Norwegian warships. Coastal spotters have reported some large Soviet missile craft moving into your sector. Spread out and move north from your present position, searching along the coastline. Maintain an average speed of 10 knots in order to cover your area in a timely manner.
1.3 Intelligence Brief: The Soviet forces are struggling to control the Norwegian Sea and the coastline. This means finding and destroying Norwegian and other NATO surface units. Once those forces have been diminished, amphibious landings will be made on the coast. These shorten the distances for Soviet ships and aircraft attacking NATO targets in the Atlantic and allow attacks on NATO units that try to reach Soviet targets.
1.4 Minimum Victory Conditions: Disable or destroy at least two Soviet ships.
Yeah that's a classic gem.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 23, 2013, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: mirth on March 23, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
Except that we've cranked out a shitload of Burkes. The most successful class of destroyer in history. Those ships absolutely rock. It was very smart of the Navy to reopen the line.
63 so far. thats a lot of naval firepower with an AGEIS system. at over 9000 tons Im sure someone decided to use the term Destroyer just to get the funding past Congress (theyre not that smart you know). the ships are crusiers to me and they weigh the same as Tico's.
crafty squids.
Yeah they're not destroyers in the normal sense. The Zumwalts are going to be almost 15,000 tons but still classified as a DDG. Guess the Navy is moving away from the cruiser concept.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 23, 2013, 09:55:08 PM
IIRC we also ordered two more of each Littoral Combat Ship. I would think that in a SHTF fight with something like the PLAN they would get grouped with carrier groups and take the picket missions that FFG-7s used to do.
The plan is to replace the Perrys with LCS in the battlegroups by 2019 but we're not building the LCS fast enough right now.
Do those LCS's float? With that ballast of dollar bills (printed money not gold) they might be top heavy.
Quote from: Longdan on March 24, 2013, 02:19:27 PM
Do those LCS's float? With that ballast of dollar bills (printed money not gold) they might be top heavy.
<chuckle> they certainly have gone way over the projected cost. Canada isn't the only one with procurement issues. On the other hand at least we do get some working hardware eventually!
We get stuff just in time to give it to somebody like the Turks for a half a pack of cigarettes and some mouse turds.
Quote from: Longdan on March 24, 2013, 06:04:29 PM
We get stuff just in time to give it to somebody like the Turks for a half a pack of cigarettes and some mouse turds.
Such the warmonger. You make it sound so romantic.
Seriously with our procurement process that is what the stuff is worth by the time we get it and that is what is done with it.
There is nothing romantic about the armaments procurement process. Romantic like a whorehouse in a mining town on Saturday Night
when you have spent your allowance on gummy bears.
if you lick and stick enough gummy bears maybe you can make a ship.
I wonder what the radar cross section is for a gummy bear ship?
you could also name it the Buddy/Guy/Friend
Gummy bears are good. Who wouldn't spend money on them?
I guess you could try and make gummy bears into a whore instead of a ship. That's romantic.
I spend my gummy bear money on games.
Quote from: Longdan on March 24, 2013, 08:07:15 PM
I guess you could try and make gummy bears into a whore instead of a ship. That's romantic.
Now we're thinking!
Hey I'm happy with the fact that US subs don't catch fire after contact with salt water. Talk about progress!
You don't buy 'em used from the British. They were looking at the French Rubis class for a while.
our subs only catch fire when in conflict with union lunch breaks. ::)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 25, 2013, 03:17:07 AM
our subs only catch fire when in conflict with union lunch breaks. ::)
lmao!