http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1059/The.Lost.Battles.are.coming! (http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1059/The.Lost.Battles.are.coming!)
I noticed a blurb over at Matrix about this. I don't own WitE but I think about getting it from time to time. If I get WitE should I lock myself in my room with about a week's worth of supplies and only reappear when I have figured out how to play the game?
Any helpful suggestions, remarks or thoughts would be appreciated.
I picked it up on the last sale with the Don to Danube expansion and felt it was well worth it.
At $80 for the game and then to add on the expansion price I would have been much more hesitant.
Not so much because of the game. More so because it is the Eastern front and their are a lot of alternatives to get you EF itch scratched. Advanced Tactics, TOAW, etc.
I was thinking that this might be a purchase down the road - either a sale or a bundled set.
As far as play it is really just like a very well done boardgame port.
If you have played any of the big name EF boardgames you will get it pretty quick.
The interface to me is well done also.
The AI is an AI. If you try to play historically and don't try to make it gamey and read all the different posts to see how to beat it, it will give you a run for your money.
I've had WitE for some time but only recently decided to make a concerted effort to actually learn how to play it.
Step one - play the Tutorial scenario (takes about an hour)
Step two - play through the Operational Bootcamp (took me 4-5 hours over two or three weekends)
Both the above have dedicated manuals which I found convenient to have in a second window on screen alongside the game window.
The Operational Bootcamp was origionaly on the forum here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2649216 with the PDF version now available with the game (when the current patch is applied)
That should give you enough to know what you are doing and how to do it most of the time.
The basic concepts are pretty familiar if you have ever played a board or computer hex based operational wargame.
A lot of the more detailed stuff is / can be automated such as replacements, air support etc.
I still doubt I'll start a full campaign game anytime soon if at all but there are c10 medium to large sized scenarios, the Don to Danube expansion adds 10 more small to large sized scenarios and the upcoming Lost Battles will add 10 more small to huge sized scenarios / campaigns so there is enough to keep me occupied without touching the campaigns.
All in all with the smaller and medium sized scenarios it is a lot less daunting than it at first appears.
Like WitP, WitE is almost a way of life. Yes, you should settle down for a long haul and, by all means, wait for a sale.
I've heard that if you pay more for the game you will value it more and want to spend more time playing it. It's a theory. Frankly I'd rather have a few extra bucks in my pocket but YMMV.
Quote from: Bison on April 27, 2013, 10:48:49 AM
I've heard that if you pay more for the game you will value it more and want to spend more time playing it. It's a theory. Frankly I'd rather have a few extra bucks in my pocket but YMMV.
No, an expensive bad or unplayable game is still a bad game. A good game on sale is just as good as it was when bought a full price. Saving the bucks is the way to go. Good philosophy, Bison.
Quote from: Bison on April 27, 2013, 10:48:49 AM
I've heard that if you pay more for the game you will value it more and want to spend more time playing it. It's a theory. Frankly I'd rather have a few extra bucks in my pocket but YMMV.
That's how the cult of Scientology justifies charging their clients hundreds of dollars an hour for the privilege of holding 2 tin cans. Their number one goal is clearing the planet of all insanity and creating a heaven on earth. They just have to make millions and millions of dollars doing it so their services will be better appreciated! :P
The only reason I have not brought this game is its high price (£56 for the d/l version).
I paid 80 when it came out, and no I do not play it or hardly have.. so the theory that more expensive will make you play the game is total bunk!
FWIW I do like the game.. played Smolensk about 3 times... I just had no urge to dive deep.. At the 80 dollar price tag, these extra 'scenarios' should've been included.. I would probably have given the game more playing time if there were more scenarios, since the high price obviously didn't do that.
WITE is not complex. It is just a matter of pushing counters. It is a monster game just because it has a lot lot of turns and thousands of counters. But gameplay is pretty simple.
Quote from: jomni on April 27, 2013, 10:26:33 PM
WITE is not complex. It is just a matter of pushing counters. It is a monster game just because it has a lot lot of turns and thousands of corners. But gameplay is pretty simple.
In between innings at my son's baseball game I looked over the manual section covering ground units and combat. Looks pretty straightforward to me - from what I read anyhow.
I own it and it's my type of game, but the unit carpet syndrome put me off it a month or 2 after launch and I haven't touched it since. Maybe I'll try it out again if I become convinced the unit carpets are a thing of the past.
FYI cruising the WITE forum on Matrix, I saw this post for a free kindle book on Amazon
Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 (Stackpole Military History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Ukraine-Operations-Stackpole-ebook/dp/B00BJ8LQ78/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1367145874&sr=8-1)
Thank you for that Mr. Tuna.
Good find! If you don't mind, I'm going to cross-post it into the Kindle Sale thread in the Books forum.
Quote from: jjdenver on April 28, 2013, 07:52:53 AM
I own it and it's my type of game, but the unit carpet syndrome put me off it a month or 2 after launch and I haven't touched it since. Maybe I'll try it out again if I become convinced the unit carpets are a thing of the past.
If you don't mind explaining, what do you mean by "unit carpets"? (I have an idea, but want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.)
Quote from: Tuna on April 28, 2013, 08:11:02 AM
FYI cruising the WITE forum on Matrix, I saw this post for a free kindle book on Amazon
Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 (Stackpole Military History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Ukraine-Operations-Stackpole-ebook/dp/B00BJ8LQ78/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1367145874&sr=8-1)
Thanks.
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 28, 2013, 08:28:49 AM
Good find! If you don't mind, I'm going to cross-post it into the Kindle Sale thread in the Books forum.
I am sure these $0 books on amazon are mistakes arent they ?
I don't think so. They could be PR with Stackpole dipping its toe into the e-pool.
Quote from: Bismarck on April 28, 2013, 08:52:49 AM
Quote from: Tuna on April 28, 2013, 08:11:02 AM
FYI cruising the WITE forum on Matrix, I saw this post for a free kindle book on Amazon
Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 (Stackpole Military History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Ukraine-Operations-Stackpole-ebook/dp/B00BJ8LQ78/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1367145874&sr=8-1)
Thanks.
+1 Thanks for the link.
Quote from: Bismarck on April 28, 2013, 09:05:23 AM
I don't think so. They could be PR with Stackpole dipping its toe into the e-pool.
Well its just that the ebook on their website is $10 and they never seem to advertise these things - people just stumble accross them. I regularly search amazon and then order by price - found quite a few bargains that way.
Me too. Amazon has most of my pension.
Quote from: Tuna on April 28, 2013, 08:11:02 AM
FYI cruising the WITE forum on Matrix, I saw this post for a free kindle book on Amazon
Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 (Stackpole Military History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Ukraine-Operations-Stackpole-ebook/dp/B00BJ8LQ78/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1367145874&sr=8-1)
Thanks very much for that. I initially thought it was just a US thing, but found it on the UK website
So cheers :D
Quote from: Al on April 28, 2013, 08:30:49 AM
Quote from: jjdenver on April 28, 2013, 07:52:53 AM
I own it and it's my type of game, but the unit carpet syndrome put me off it a month or 2 after launch and I haven't touched it since. Maybe I'll try it out again if I become convinced the unit carpets are a thing of the past.
If you don't mind explaining, what do you mean by "unit carpets"? (I have an idea, but want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.)
We're probably talking about the same thing. It's when you look at the map and there are units 3 hexes deep for the Soviets (and later the Germans - i.e. whoever is defending) all along the front line. It prevents breakthroughs and lets the defender dig in massive defensive belts all through Russia that are 50 or 100 or 150 miles deep (don't recall hex scale in the game anymore). It looks ridiculous and in terms of historicity I think it's a gamebreaker. I'm not sure what the right fix for it is - maybe more hexes, maybe change unit scale, maybe some penalty for deploying units in more than 100 hexes, or something else - no idea.
I always hated games that had one long wall of units.
However, using the troops correctly does allow you in this game at least to break through...punch holes in the defence and create pockets. Not that I played this game much at all. Like Tuna, I played the Smolensk battle about 3 times, and dabbled with a couple of others and then started a big campaign, but never stuck with it.
Supplies/rail/air kind of confused me and everything ground to a halt from what I recall.
Quote from: jjdenver on April 28, 2013, 04:34:15 PM
Quote from: Al on April 28, 2013, 08:30:49 AM
Quote from: jjdenver on April 28, 2013, 07:52:53 AM
I own it and it's my type of game, but the unit carpet syndrome put me off it a month or 2 after launch and I haven't touched it since. Maybe I'll try it out again if I become convinced the unit carpets are a thing of the past.
If you don't mind explaining, what do you mean by "unit carpets"? (I have an idea, but want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.)
We're probably talking about the same thing. It's when you look at the map and there are units 3 hexes deep for the Soviets (and later the Germans - i.e. whoever is defending) all along the front line. It prevents breakthroughs and lets the defender dig in massive defensive belts all through Russia that are 50 or 100 or 150 miles deep (don't recall hex scale in the game anymore). It looks ridiculous and in terms of historicity I think it's a gamebreaker. I'm not sure what the right fix for it is - maybe more hexes, maybe change unit scale, maybe some penalty for deploying units in more than 100 hexes, or something else - no idea.
Yea, we're talking about the same thing. Is this behaviour the AI exhibits or is this your experience against human opponents? (Sorry for all the questions, but at potentially $80....)
Both AI and Humans use the carpet strategy mainly because there's no choice.
Unit carpet is a by product of the 3 unit stacking rule. Only 3 units are allowed in a hex. It is supposed to be based on historical unit frontage and prevents people from overstacking a hex with a stack of doom. Fortification calculations are modified now so that the carpets aren't as formidable as before but still a potent strategy to use since there isn't any alternative.
As a balancing factor, surrounded units die instantly the next turn. A lot don't like this feature as well. Germans hate the carpet, Soviets hate the instant surrender.
Quote from: jomni on April 28, 2013, 05:31:02 PM
Both AI and Humans use the carpet strategy mainly because there's no choice.
Unit carpet is a by product of the 3 unit stacking rule. Only 3 units are allowed in a hex. It is supposed to be based on historical unit frontage and prevents people from overstacking a hex with a stack of doom. Fortification calculations are modified now so that the carpets aren't as formidable as before but still a potent strategy to use since there isn't any alternative.
As a balancing factor, surrounded units die instantly the next turn. A lot don't like this feature as well. Germans hate the carpet, Soviets hate the instant surrender.
Yes - WiTE got an awful lot wrong in my view. Subsequent attempts to fix things up have only made things worse or broken other things. Probably my most disppointing game ever.
Quote from: jomni on April 28, 2013, 05:31:02 PM
Both AI and Humans use the carpet strategy mainly because there's no choice.
Unit carpet is a by product of the 3 unit stacking rule. Only 3 units are allowed in a hex. It is supposed to be based on historical unit frontage and prevents people from overstacking a hex with a stack of doom. Fortification calculations are modified now so that the carpets aren't as formidable as before but still a potent strategy to use since there isn't any alternative.
As a balancing factor, surrounded units die instantly the next turn. A lot don't like this feature as well. Germans hate the carpet, Soviets hate the instant surrender.
Thanks for the explanation Jomni. This made me very sad after I bought the game and played it for a month or 2, because really this could have been a dream game for me - I really love this type of game but when I realized the unit carpets were here to stay I couldn't even bring myself to play anymore. Very tragic really that such a flaw is in what is otherwise a very good game imo.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 29, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
Quote from: jomni on April 28, 2013, 05:31:02 PM
Both AI and Humans use the carpet strategy mainly because there's no choice.
Unit carpet is a by product of the 3 unit stacking rule. Only 3 units are allowed in a hex. It is supposed to be based on historical unit frontage and prevents people from overstacking a hex with a stack of doom. Fortification calculations are modified now so that the carpets aren't as formidable as before but still a potent strategy to use since there isn't any alternative.
As a balancing factor, surrounded units die instantly the next turn. A lot don't like this feature as well. Germans hate the carpet, Soviets hate the instant surrender.
Yes - WiTE got an awful lot wrong in my view. Subsequent attempts to fix things up have only made things worse or broken other things. Probably my most disppointing game ever.
I agree. There was a lot that was potentially really good about WitE, but they didn't come together for me, sadly.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 29, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
Probably my most disppointing game ever.
WitE tops my disappointment list as well. Sigh...
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 28, 2013, 02:00:17 PM
Quote from: Tuna on April 28, 2013, 08:11:02 AM
FYI cruising the WITE forum on Matrix, I saw this post for a free kindle book on Amazon
Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 (Stackpole Military History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Ukraine-Operations-Stackpole-ebook/dp/B00BJ8LQ78/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1367145874&sr=8-1)
Thanks very much for that. I initially thought it was just a US thing, but found it on the UK website
So cheers :D
Looks like that deal is over, must've been limited time.. Glad a few people got to use it!
I never got the play out of WITE that I got out of years of WITP/AE. It seems every time I started a WITE campaign 20-30 hrs in, they would release a new patch fixing some major issue so after a dozen or more restarts I just gave up.
^ and that right there is one of the major issues. And whilst support (and long term support) is great - at the end of the day, when a developer finds and fixes game breaking bugs that weren't discovered for months just feel like a kick in the nuts when it requires a campaign restart...especially for these big games.
I enjoy WITE and am not regretting the Don to the Danube purchase so will have to buy this as well. My few critiques of WITE the air war would be more in detail (like WITP;AE) and the GHC would be able to streamline their industry to give the AXIS a better chance.
Quote from: BigBlueFleet on April 30, 2013, 12:47:29 PM
I enjoy WITE and am not regretting the Don to the Danube purchase so will have to buy this as well. My few critiques of WITE the air war would be more in detail (like WITP;AE) and the GHC would be able to streamline their industry to give the AXIS a better chance.
More detail?! Better man than I.
Welcome, BTW.
Thanks Bismarck, long time reader, rare poster... ;) :)
Historically, WITE got a lot right, the mobile German forces surrounding and destroying Russian armies at will in the beginning of the war and the growing problems with supply lines as the Germans advance. How playing the Russians is a shock, it's the only east front game I know, that shows just how close the Russians came to losing it all. Why you have create and throw rifle division after rifle division at the enemy and not run away to slow the German advance. How weather gave the Russians the chance to catch their breath and more than anything else crippled the German offense. The air war does seems weak, other than recon, it seems almost useless after the first few turns when playing the Germans. Still no game options to show what Germany could have done if it's economy was at 100%, the effects on how much man power/logistics was wasted on Hitler's final solution as the war went on or what if there was no lease/lend. The editor is great at adjusting forces but, using it to adjust German production/economy, is like trying to figure out & fix the US tax code. I wish they would fix the air war in WITE before WITW (War in the West) where the air war was much more of a factor.
Sgt Rock pointed out a problem with the game design. If you make the game too historically accurate, that means the Germans will almost always lose. :)
Quote from: Tuna on April 28, 2013, 08:11:02 AM
FYI cruising the WITE forum on Matrix, I saw this post for a free kindle book on Amazon
Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 (Stackpole Military History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Ukraine-Operations-Stackpole-ebook/dp/B00BJ8LQ78/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1367145874&sr=8-1)
I have this book also as an ebook. Sadly their best book called "the panzer legions" is not yet in ebook form. Reading about each and every German division that was ever formed in ww2 is very fascinating to me. Like others on here I too have WITE but not the expansions. I get about an hour a day (if that to play wargames) and while I would love to get to know this game better I just don't have the time.
Quote from: jomni on May 01, 2013, 09:34:20 PM
Sgt Rock pointed out a problem with the game design. If you make the game too historically accurate, that means the Germans will almost always lose. :)
Your right, if a game always plays out the same way just like history, what's the point? Better to just read a book, I like games that allow one to explore the "What if's". If they put out an Expansion pack that explored some of these What if's then I might buy it.
Quote from: SgtRock on May 02, 2013, 12:16:59 PM
Quote from: jomni on May 01, 2013, 09:34:20 PM
Sgt Rock pointed out a problem with the game design. If you make the game too historically accurate, that means the Germans will almost always lose. :)
Your right, if a game always plays out the same way just like history, what's the point? Better to just read a book, I like games that allow one to explore the "What if's". If they put out an Expansion pack that explored some of these What if's then I might buy it.
Well...is it necessarily to have a variant, 'what-if' scenario or could you explore different strategies than those employed by the Germans in their efforts to conquer Russia? Could you create your own variant by trying something different....i.e. start by throwing most everything into the center for a rush to take Moscow, or protect your northern flank and throw everything into a drive on Stalingrad and the Caucasus oil fields, that sort of thing? I own and play the game but only the shorter scenarios, I've yet to try the campaign so I don't know if what I am suggesting would even work.
Quote from: Wolfe1759 on April 27, 2013, 10:22:22 AM
I've had WitE for some time but only recently decided to make a concerted effort to actually learn how to play it.
Step one - play the Tutorial scenario (takes about an hour)
Step two - play through the Operational Bootcamp (took me 4-5 hours over two or three weekends)
Both the above have dedicated manuals which I found convenient to have in a second window on screen alongside the game window.
The Operational Bootcamp was origionaly on the forum here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2649216 with the PDF version now available with the game (when the current patch is applied)
...
Can I ask where the Operational Bootcamp manual is? My game is patched up (AND I have Don to the Danube expansion) and not only can I not see the Operational Bootcamp manual on the game interface, I can't see anything that looks like that in the Manuals folder for the game
The operational boot camp is not an official manual. I think it's just a forum post.
Well I only asked because Wolfe1759's post mentioned it being available with the patch - and my game is patched but there's no sign of the Operational Bootcamp...which I think might be a must have because the tutorial didn't teach me enough to get into this game (that I recall).
Quote from: JudgeDredd on May 03, 2013, 01:57:19 AM
Quote from: Wolfe1759 on April 27, 2013, 10:22:22 AM
I've had WitE for some time but only recently decided to make a concerted effort to actually learn how to play it.
Step one - play the Tutorial scenario (takes about an hour)
Step two - play through the Operational Bootcamp (took me 4-5 hours over two or three weekends)
Both the above have dedicated manuals which I found convenient to have in a second window on screen alongside the game window.
The Operational Bootcamp was origionaly on the forum here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2649216 with the PDF version now available with the game (when the current patch is applied)
...
Can I ask where the Operational Bootcamp manual is? My game is patched up (AND I have Don to the Danube expansion) and not only can I not see the Operational Bootcamp manual on the game interface, I can't see anything that looks like that in the Manuals folder for the game
Mailed it to you Judge (forget where I got it from)
Muchos gracias senor
My mistake
If anyone else needs it you can get it on the Wiki http://www.witewiki.com/index.php?title=Getting_Started
Fourth line down under For New Players
The bootcamp pdf file is very well done and helped me to grasp what was going on and allowed me to enjoy a number of the scenarios. It takes quite a while to work through the entire presentation but it is worth it. My only frustration was with the fact that the author would sometimes just tell you to move certain units to certain hexes without really explaining why, like in an encirclement, I would know what he was doing but the ctually placement of the many units was sometimes hard to figure out the 'why that hex' and 'not another'...this is a minor gripe, the author is to be commended for an exceptional job well done.
Just saw that there's a AAR on this over at wargamer.com
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=586408 (http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=586408)
Thanks everyone for the comments. I'll probably get this eventually...when there's a sale.