I'm always amazed at the amount of money that some games get through kickstarters yet, I don't know of any kickstarters for computer war games, do you?
One wonders, would CM Campaigns been completed if kickerstarts had been available at the time?
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
You would probably see more interest if it wasn't on-line multiplayer only.
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 02:15:11 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
You would probably see more interest if it wasn't on-line multiplayer only.
+1. carnator...our community here consists of some pretty hardcore wargamers. We make up a significant portion of your niche market. Please don't take the lack of interest personally. It has not been meant that way. Rather, use it constructively to try to modify your game into something the community would be interested in playing. Just my .02.
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 02:15:11 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
You would probably see more interest if it wasn't on-line multiplayer only.
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 02:15:11 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
You would probably see more interest if it wasn't on-line multiplayer only.
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
I remember looking at it, but got distracted. (happens a lot)
I'll see if I can clear some time to spend with it and give you some feedback.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 10, 2013, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 02:15:11 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
You would probably see more interest if it wasn't on-line multiplayer only.
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
I remember looking at it, but got distracted. (happens a lot)
I'll see if I can clear some time to spend with it and give you some feedback.
Thanks LongBlade. Msg me on the chat client, I am 'carnator' there as well. I can show you the ropes, teach you how to play. I am jordanbrock123 on Skype if you want to chat there.
I can think of a couple reasons.
1. It takes some time and effort to have a successful KickStarter campaign. Most computer wargames are made by small teams already with day jobs and trying to produce a game. That's our case at least.
2. Computer games are very hard to tie down to a ship date. In fact, nearly impossible. KickStart projects really need to have a set time frame to keep the folks supporting happy.
3. Not a lot of folks making war games and even less so these days doing it on computer. If you have a good system in place, a board wargame can get turned around in pretty short order. Biggest hurdle for them is getting them made and shipped. Computer games are the opposite. Takes a long time to produce, but can be distributed in hours.
4. To really have a successful (in terms of sales) wargame, you need to have it play single player. That means AI and AI is a #$@#% to code and code well. As Carnator points out most board game require more than one person to play (although a good wargame system should allow for some form of solitaire play). Where 99% of multiplayer games fail is having folks find decent players to play against. If you are playing a board game, chances are you know the person across the table.
5. I think if the Grogheads here had not started the GARPA articles, most of the posters here would not know about kickstarter. It would be interesting to see how many folks here would support a computer wargame development and what they would want for the money. We would also need to know just how long they would wait. Could be years for a small free time crew or months if the funding pays the bills for full time labor on the game.
Great question. 8)
Quote from: Capn Darwin on May 10, 2013, 03:46:42 PM
I can think of a couple reasons.
1. It takes some time and effort to have a successful KickStarter campaign. Most computer wargames are made by small teams already with day jobs and trying to produce a game. That's our case at least.
2. Computer games are very hard to tie down to a ship date. In fact, nearly impossible. KickStart projects really need to have a set time frame to keep the folks supporting happy.
3. Not a lot of folks making war games and even less so these days doing it on computer. If you have a good system in place, a board wargame can get turned around in pretty short order. Biggest hurdle for them is getting them made and shipped. Computer games are the opposite. Takes a long time to produce, but can be distributed in hours.
4. To really have a successful (in terms of sales) wargame, you need to have it play single player. That means AI and AI is a #$@#% to code and code well. As Carnator points out most board game require more than one person to play (although a good wargame system should allow for some form of solitaire play). Where 99% of multiplayer games fail is having folks find decent players to play against. If you are playing a board game, chances are you know the person across the table.
5. I think if the Grogheads here had not started the GARPA articles, most of the posters here would not know about kickstarter. It would be interesting to see how many folks here would support a computer wargame development and what they would want for the money. We would also need to know just how long they would wait. Could be years for a small free time crew or months if the funding pays the bills for full time labor on the game.
Great question. 8)
This is basically why Just Tactics is multiplayer only. We were a tiny team (now we are small team), and we had a tiny budget, none of us was good at AI. We were, however, proficient at building out the multiplayer end of things (having extensively modded and run counterstrike servers and tournaments for a number of years). So we decided to go with multiplayer only, because we knew that we could get that done (and actually finish the game).
So, where we are now is a multiplayer online game (a pretty sweet one IMO). You guys will play a tabletop wargame in person...well what I am suggesting is that I have built basically that. And that grogheads is an online community, a community of gamers that isn't necessarily going to meet up and have a gaming session in real life, perhaps some of us will never meet in real life to play with each other. But, I did build this game, and it is an opportunity for us to play online, just like the groghead community is online. In our (tiny) Just Tactics community we don't have any of the annoying people you find in like online Call of Duty servers screaming horrible obscenities at each other, I am sure we will come across some of them, but, for the most part, the genre of the game will keep those types over playing mindless FPS titles.
I am suggesting we can chat, skype, whatever you want online, and get a community going as if we were playing an in-the-flesh wargame session, the advantage being that even though this community is spread across the globe, we can do it online! hooray technology. anyway, I am 'carnator' online, I am down to chat and teach you how to play. Once a couple of you guys learn you can teach other grogheads how to play, and this thing can spread a bit. We have a rating system in place, and also the ability to create private matches, so getting a good (or friendly) opponent should be doable.
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PMI mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
I mostly played Star Fleet Battles all by myself. Big, huge galactic wars that went on and on. Fun stuff! I also play Civilization V alone in hotseat mode and control 7-8 civs myself. Don't underestimate the desire for single player games. ;)
Back on topic, I think there would be more if there were more success stories. One day I need to go back and look at all of the 'coming soon!' games that I drooled over and see what happened to them. I hear about a cool game in the works now and it's like 'meh, they'll never finish it'.
That said, I'm really hoping doomtrader has success with Worlds of Magic. ;D
" Just Tactics " from me checking it out is a strategy game but not a wargame.
Strategy games can go from Chess to monopoly but none of those are wargames.
At least not from my perspective.
I wish you all the best with your game but it is not my cup of tea.
Quote from: magnus on May 10, 2013, 04:40:27 PM
" Just Tactics " from me checking it out is a strategy game but not a wargame.
Strategy games can go from Chess to monopoly but none of those are wargames.
At least not from my perspective.
I wish you all the best with your game but it is not my cup of tea.
Yes and no. Certainly Just Tactics isn't a historical wargame.
However, it is a turn-based tactical combat game. Not strictly a wargame maybe, but much closer something like Combat Mission than it is to, say, Total War.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 10, 2013, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: magnus on May 10, 2013, 04:40:27 PM
" Just Tactics " from me checking it out is a strategy game but not a wargame.
Strategy games can go from Chess to monopoly but none of those are wargames.
At least not from my perspective.
I wish you all the best with your game but it is not my cup of tea.
Yes and no. Certainly Just Tactics isn't a historical wargame.
However, it is a turn-based tactical combat game. Not strictly a wargame maybe, but much closer something like Combat Mission than it is to, say, Total War.
I will put my reputation out there and guarantee you that: Just Tactics is 100% historically inaccurate.
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
I will put my reputation out there and guarantee you that: Just Tactics is 100% historically inaccurate.
Heh. Quite the risk taker there, aren't ya? ;D
Quote from: SgtRock on May 10, 2013, 01:47:17 PM
I'm always amazed at the amount of money that some games get through kickstarters yet, I don't know of any kickstarters for computer war games, do you?
One wonders, would CM Campaigns been completed if kickerstarts had been available at the time?
Honestly, I think far too many wargame developers are stuck in the past compared to devs in any other segment of gaming. Ancient graphic engines mean they don't exactly have much to 'show off'. Antique UI's stuck in the past are not an easy sell. And too much of it ends up being fairly same-y. "Help me fund the dream of letting you fight the Battle of the Bulge. Again."
As for CM Campaigns, it was probably an unworkable mess of an idea from the start. "Let's bolt a campaign system on top of a series of games that weren't designed with that in mind years after they were released." Not so much.
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Actually, I don't. None of my friends are boardgamers or wargamers. But the big issue for me is time. Two jobs, a wife, and two dogs mean I get gaming time in bite-sized portions - rarely do I have more than an hour at a time for gaming. So I'm unable to make a commitment in terms of time and schedule to on-line gaming. The closest I come is PBEM, for obvious reaosns.
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 06:54:55 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Actually, I don't. None of my friends are boardgamers or wargamers. But the big issue for me is time. Two jobs, a wife, and two dogs mean I get gaming time in bite-sized portions - rarely do I have more than an hour at a time for gaming. So I'm unable to make a commitment in terms of time and schedule to on-line gaming. The closest I come is PBEM, for obvious reaosns.
I am in the same boat. Not enough time, nor does my schedule allow me to coordinate with other players. I much prefer single player games and rarely, if ever, play multiplayer games. Therefore, this game is not something I am interested in, but I do wish the developer luck.
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 06:54:55 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Actually, I don't. None of my friends are boardgamers or wargamers. But the big issue for me is time. Two jobs, a wife, and two dogs mean I get gaming time in bite-sized portions - rarely do I have more than an hour at a time for gaming. So I'm unable to make a commitment in terms of time and schedule to on-line gaming. The closest I come is PBEM, for obvious reaosns.
+1
It's been at least 15 years since I played a board game, and while I did do a ton of board gaming when I was in HS and college, even most of that was solitaire. It can be difficult to find people interested in this hobby. What gaming time I do have is often a refuge for me to get away from other people. MP obviously doesn't allow that.
I think it's great that you've developed a game, even if part of the approach of that game might not be to my taste. I hope its very successful. I also hope your marketing for it is more than hanging out here and pitching it to curmudgeons like me. ;)
Quote from: panzerde on May 10, 2013, 07:42:19 PM
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 06:54:55 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Actually, I don't. None of my friends are boardgamers or wargamers. But the big issue for me is time. Two jobs, a wife, and two dogs mean I get gaming time in bite-sized portions - rarely do I have more than an hour at a time for gaming. So I'm unable to make a commitment in terms of time and schedule to on-line gaming. The closest I come is PBEM, for obvious reaosns.
+1
It's been at least 15 years since I played a board game, and while I did do a ton of board gaming when I was in HS and college, even most of that was solitaire. It can be difficult to find people interested in this hobby. What gaming time I do have is often a refuge for me to get away from other people. MP obviously doesn't allow that.
I think it's great that you've developed a game, even if part of the approach of that game might not be to my taste. I hope its very successful. I also hope your marketing for it is more than hanging out here and pitching it to curmudgeons like me. ;)
And another +1.
It's not that we don't like your game, it's just that there are a ton of us who simply don't play multiplayer. I simply don't have time to sit down and game for an hour straight. I get interrupted by kids, wife, and real life. I play single player because I can pause, put my kids to bed, pick it back up, them pause again when's wife yells at me to take the garbage out.
Also, I socialize with people at work. For me, gaming time is my quiet time and I don't want to have to interact with people.
I will say this. It only took a few minutes for me to get clobbered in a game.
The matching service worked, but waiting was pretty opaque. I sat there for maybe 30 seconds before I got a match, but I got one. It was with the one of the devs, so they're watching and eager for folks to jump in. They were also helpful in getting into a chat and walking me through the game.
I'm still working my way through thoughts on the game, but the majority of my criticism is probably going to center on how it's not super-easy to get into the game. The game itself is fun, though the units don't much resemble conventional stereotypes. That's great because no one can accuse them of stealing another's IP, but it does mean that it takes a while to figure out what some of the units do. Others, like mobile artillery with indirect fire, were pretty obvious (and cool). The graphic effects and sounds are good. The art style isn't my favorite but it grew on me.
Bottom line: I liked the test drives I took and I'm interested in learning more. I'd encourage you guys to try it - especially those of you with limited time. Most of us are accustomed to getting the feel of a game through single-player games before we jump into the shark tank of multiplayer. That option doesn't exist here, but I would still encourage you guys to try the free demo. At least then you'll know what it's about. But watch the YouTube tutorials first.
Board wargames are in kickstarter (DVG). But the funding scale is so small and it is surely to be successful like the usuall P500 scheme.
Quote from: panzerde on May 10, 2013, 07:42:19 PM
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 06:54:55 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Actually, I don't. None of my friends are boardgamers or wargamers. But the big issue for me is time. Two jobs, a wife, and two dogs mean I get gaming time in bite-sized portions - rarely do I have more than an hour at a time for gaming. So I'm unable to make a commitment in terms of time and schedule to on-line gaming. The closest I come is PBEM, for obvious reaosns.
+1
It's been at least 15 years since I played a board game, and while I did do a ton of board gaming when I was in HS and college, even most of that was solitaire. It can be difficult to find people interested in this hobby. What gaming time I do have is often a refuge for me to get away from other people. MP obviously doesn't allow that.
I think it's great that you've developed a game, even if part of the approach of that game might not be to my taste. I hope its very successful. I also hope your marketing for it is more than hanging out here and pitching it to curmudgeons like me. ;)
That's my take as well. I played miniatures and board games back in high school and college but I haven't touched a chit in 15 years. Real life gets in the way of the hobby and, to be frank, the idea of spending a few hours to drive somewhere, set up a map and counters, and play until 3am holds very little appeal these days, even if I knew someone who was still willing to play (which I don't).
I prefer single player because it means I can pick up and put down a game on my terms. Play when I want for how long I want and reload/rage quit without repercussion. MP too often feels like a chore.
Best of luck with your title. I respect the amount of effort you put into it but MP only is not my thing nor is the Sci-Fi setting.
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:01:33 PM
i just made a computer war game and no one seems to want to play it. maybe that has something to do with it...
Kickstarter might have worked for you, it would have giving you an idea of how many gamers had an interest & (willing to invest, buy the game) before full development.
@carnator. You posted in the wrong forums. A lot of people here prefer historical or real-world stuff.
Quote from: jomni on May 13, 2013, 01:39:27 AM
@carnator. You posted in the wrong forums. A lot of people here prefer historical or real-world stuff.
Yes, but we're gamers. Lots of folks here who play historical games but also scifi and fantasy, too.
hell - 80% of what I actually play is ahistorical or near-future. Only about 20% of what I play is based in actual history and I enjoy good tactical challenges that aren't necessarily historical battles.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on May 11, 2013, 12:02:54 AM
It's been at least 15 years since I played a board game, and while I did do a ton of board gaming when I was in HS and college, even most of that
That's my take as well. I played miniatures and board games back in high school and college but I haven't touched a chit in 15 years. Real life gets in the way of the hobby and, to be frank, the idea of spending a few hours to drive somewhere, set up a map and counters, and play until 3am holds very little appeal these days, even if I knew someone who was still willing to play (which I don't).
Cough!http://www.vassalengine.org/ (http://www.vassalengine.org/)Cough!
Quote from: Ubercat on May 13, 2013, 12:14:35 PM
Cough!http://www.vassalengine.org/ (http://www.vassalengine.org/)Cough!
I've really got to stop reading these forums. I didn't need to know that existed. ;D
Quote from: bbmike on May 13, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
Quote from: Ubercat on May 13, 2013, 12:14:35 PM
Cough!http://www.vassalengine.org/ (http://www.vassalengine.org/)Cough!
I've really got to stop reading these forums. I didn't need to know that existed. ;D
Actually, there are two. Vassal, and Aide-de-camp. I've not used either one (though periodically I get plenty of peer pressure to do so) but I have heard good things about both.
I'm very anti-hex these days. It was an elegant system in the days of board games where one needed to be able to quickly and easily quantify range and movement but with all the computing power available now, it feels like a very artificial and constrained system. I tend to steer clear of computerized chit and hex PC games nowadays. Why bother with all that abstraction when the PC is perfectly capable of rendering a game world with realistic topography and units?
...because hexes have electrolytes! It's what plants need
Quote from: mikeck on May 13, 2013, 05:03:37 PM
...because hexes have electrolytes! It's what plants need
Ha! Aren't carbon molecules hexes?
Only because organic chemists suck at drawing.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 13, 2013, 02:48:50 PM
Actually, there are two. Vassal, and Aide-de-camp. I've not used either one (though periodically I get plenty of peer pressure to do so) but I have heard good things about both.
Don't forget http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/
Quote from: tgb on May 10, 2013, 06:54:55 PM
Quote from: carnator on May 10, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Probably. But, I don't know why you guys are so against playing an online multiplayer game. I mean, you play table top war games and board games right...do they have single player???
Actually, I don't. None of my friends are boardgamers or wargamers. But the big issue for me is time. Two jobs, a wife, and two dogs mean I get gaming time in bite-sized portions - rarely do I have more than an hour at a time for gaming. So I'm unable to make a commitment in terms of time and schedule to on-line gaming. The closest I come is PBEM, for obvious reaosns.
Okay understood, you have a life outside of gaming :) Well, if you do get some free time someday, please consider giving the game a whirl, just mesage me (carnator) on the chat client. There is a chess style timer so the longest a match can possibly go is 2 hours. A match typically lasts 1.5 hours. I played a match the other day that took 42 minutes, and that was with my opponent and I both doing live commentary (which slowed us down), the match probably would have taken 30 minutes if we were going full speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_sW2t87l1M
One thing that boardgame Kickstarters can offer that PC games cannot are those cool extras. If Up Front ever happens -- and I believe (what choice do I have?) -- I will be up to my neck in cards. Most PC games can, on a good day, offer extra DLC (which just angers me) or T-shirts.
And all y'all looking for new engines, better graphics, revamped UIs, &c., please assure me you're not holding your breath...I need good opponents for when I do get to retire. I consider BFC something of a modern day miracle and hug it, HPS, Norbsoft, and a few others very tightly lest someone tell me they, too, have moved to the mobile environment.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)