I don't have a link yet as I just heard about it....
Quote from: Gusington on May 22, 2013, 02:44:23 PM
I don't have a link yet as I just heard about it....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10073910/Soldier-beheaded-in-Islamist-terror-attack-oustide-barracks-in-Woolwich.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10073910/Soldier-beheaded-in-Islamist-terror-attack-oustide-barracks-in-Woolwich.html)
Horrible. Barbaric.
Sickening.
This is the kind of shit that has made people more anti-middle east over the years.
I gather the police shot and killed the two attackers.
The cee you next tuesdays are in a serious condition and benefiting from the best treatment the NHS can provide. I do not want to say any more about this at present. Suffice to say that many friends are totally outraged by these events but that is what the arseholes wanted.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with these people? "God is great, hey lets go kill someone". This is just barbaric.
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 22, 2013, 04:31:27 PM
Seriously, wtf is wrong with these people? "God is great, hey lets go kill someone". This is just barbaric.
Speaks volumes about their so called God.
I'll leave it at that.
I think it speaks more to the unintended consequences of forced multiculturalism.
******* savages.
Religion of peace, what a bunch of bull crap! >:(
I just don't have the words right now. >:(
I'm alternating between feeling sickened and very angry.
At the link below is a video that is suppose to be one of the men involved with blood covered hands and the weapons in hand talking to a bystander with a video camera. I almost put a hole in my monitor watching this. >:( >:( Just be careful watching it, it is a bit graphic and will make your blood boil and then some.
QuoteTwo men wielding a machete and a cleaver hacked a man believed to be a soldier to death on a busy London street Wednesday while yelling "Allahu Akbar," in an attack that was caught on video and left the nation shocked and horrified.
The victim, who some reports said may have been a soldier, was killed at the scene, and the attackers waited at the scene until police arrived and shot both. One attacker, his hands soaked in blood and still holding a machete, delivered an angry jihadist screed as stunned passersby watched, the dead man lying on the street, in the southeast London neighborhood of Woolwich.
"We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day," he said in a video clip that was shown on the ITV website. "This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
"I apologize that women have had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same," the killer continued. "You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don't care about you."
Witnesses said the attackers shouted "Allahu Akbar," Arabic for "God is Great," during the bloody rampage, according to the BBC.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/22/man-killed-in-reported-machete-attack-in-london/#ixzz2U40FFsQo
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
I just watched it, and I am more astounded than angry. He makes the statement, argues with some people, then the 2 f#*%ers wait for the police to arrive and gun them down. WTF!!
I get the statement of so-called "martyrdom" for their f&^ed up cause, but why not attack more people? They certainly had the opportunity. I guess that they were looking to show the world that they were "noble" in their cause, by limiting their butchery to a soldier. F%&*ing a$$holes.
The Brits should go old-school and bury the f*&^ers in pigskin or bacon, as a warning to the others that no heaven awaits because their bodies were defiled.
Are the attackers dead? I read that they were medivaced to (a) Hospital.
Shit! >:(
Well, if they live, I take solace in the thought that their future colleagues in the British prison system will treat them right.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
Well said. A much better statement than my own.
I hoped I had heard wrong but apparently this is true. I don't know what to say other than I am sorry for the victim and his family. This is a new level of scum.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
I bet the SAS will seek and destroy.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
Well said.
I muttered a few choice words out load when I heard that news on TV. Unfortunately Daughter #2 overheard them. Perhaps Britain would care to send them over here. We have the death penalty and I can't imagine a better case for using it.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 22, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
I bet the SAS will seek and destroy.
Seek and destroy who? This doesn't exactly seem like a long-planned operation being run by a terror organization from a foreign nation.
extemporaneously saw the graphic video this morn on the news ... what a way to wake up when you just want to check on the weather.
When do the people in Europe and the rest of the West finally get it, that Islamism will be the Fascism of the 21st century and force their according local politicans to get their ass up and act!
...meanwhile in Germany after month of forensic analysis, the person who ignited a bomb at Bonn railwaystation (which fortunately was a dud cause of construction error), was identified as a 26y old Salafi convert, (his wife and 2 year old child DNA on the bomb remains) ...who guess what, is already in jail, waiting for his trial for a planed assassination of a German right wing politician. Salafi gang could be shortstopped only 150 m from the politician house. (by police investigators on their trail. ...i guess with life SIGINT analysis)
there may be secular peaceful Muslims, who just have their feasts and prayers in their mosque, and don't bother their neighbors with their shit or conversion talks.
But if one of their brothers show a sign of running wild and loosing it, they compliment him nicy nicy out of their actual prayer session, but giving a damn about providing a hint to authorities, to protect the larger community "they have the honor to be part of it", as they always claim, when they want something insisting on f#*&in Political Correctness reasons ...see Boston!
Quote from: Staggerwing on May 22, 2013, 06:03:13 PM
Are the attackers dead? I read that they were medivaced to (a) Hospital.
No - unfortunately they are not dead - though it is obvious they were seeking their martyrdom in the way they confronted police and actually waited at the scene for them to arrive and made no attempt to evade capture.
Of course - now they will spend 30 years being fed and kept warm at the expense of the british tax payer.
Form the way the guy spoke on the video - he is not a recent immigrant and has obviously lived in the area this happened for a long time - and was at least very young or born in the uk. From what I understand they were both somalian orginally though. Part of the area this happened in is known locally as "little somalia".
I agree - vengeance will need to find a target - this is not a master plot - but the actions of a couple of dumb f**k losers. Vengence I suspect will come in the form of a greater reluctance of the western population of the UK to respect the muslim religion - and there will be a backlash against things like sharia courts being allowed to exist - which to my mind is a good thing as they have already penetrated their sickness far farther than most people realize.
The main thing I think this will do however - irrespective of the "peaceful" muslims - is further establish the fact in the mind of the public at large - that the war is now between us - and that religion. The distinction between the words terrorist and muslims is already blurred - now I suspect it will disappear altogether.
I would also point out - not that it makes a material difference - that the "beheading" part of the story is not true - and is based on a newspaper picking up one thing one witness said.
QuoteWhen do the people in Europe and the rest of the West finally get it, that Islamism will be the Fascism of the 21st century and force their according local politicans to get their ass up and act!
I'm getting sick and tired of these psychos as well but what should the local politicians or any politician do? This is not a fighting force in a war, not soldiers on the field, these are terrorists, fanatics and psychos. They can pop up anywhere and are usually only caught after they acted. What's to be done about that? Burning mosques? Send all Muslims to other countries? And often converts who live right among us for years are the worst of this bunch. A man you might know as the friendly young neighbor might show up at your door with a smile and pull a hole in your head and the news will say a man converted to extreme Islam joined the Salafists and was caught after an terrorist attack or murder. As I said I have my blood boiling too when I see this BS talk of the killer and I also often think 'we must do something' but I fail to see what can be done.
Quote from: Grimnirsson on May 23, 2013, 04:07:41 AM
What's to be done about that? Burning mosques? Send all Muslims to other countries?
hmm... maybe not in that particular order ;)
well, now seriously what can be done:
- first, let's get rid of the damn -often even preemptive- used 'Political Correctness'
- revoke political Islam the status and privileges of a religion. Its a political movement.
- expell identified possible radical foreigners
- put fresh converts to Islam under surveillance for a few years, check their travel to foreign countires
generally, make life for traditional Muslims as uncomfortable as possible in our neck of the wood.
(politicans have no problem doing it on us regulars with, all those little laws, taxes here and there and regulations for everything... esp in the EU)
... so that they relocate to a country where they feel more right, like Saudi Arabia.
(heh, its closer to Mecca anyway and they already save some miles on their way to the next Hajj.)
insted of traditional Muslims making our life uncomfortable day by day while enforcing their medieval beliefs into our society plus the security measures we all have to go through now cause of their possible next acts
offended by a cross on the wall, not our problem
offended by a piggybank on the counter, not our problem
offended by a neighbor eating pork at the next table, not our problem.
offended by young girls and boys together learning sports in the pool or fitness room, not our problem
offended by getting treated as
the dark age dumbass that your are, not our problem
- so stop bowing! its my way or high way.
- start calling a spade a spade
maybe try to outlaw headscarf and similar gear in public buildings and at the workplace, ... was not a problem to do on smokers, ...wasn't it?
and as a casual citizen, don't deal, trade, barter, service, lease, buy from a clearly traditional Muslims.
no shirt, no shoes, no service.
headscarf, caftan, no service too
God i'm p#%&*d !
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 23, 2013, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 22, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
I bet the SAS will seek and destroy.
Seek and destroy who? This doesn't exactly seem like a long-planned operation being run by a terror organization from a foreign nation.
They do not have very far to go. The enemy is alive and well on English streets and in english neighborhoods. English law and the pussification of their own culture has encouraged the enemy to grow roots in their own backyard.
Case in point...david Cameron is already claiming the attack had nothing to do with Islam. This is incredulous, when considering the statement made by the animal himself immediately after the attack.
Of course - now it begins ...
Both suspects in the killing of a serving soldier in London were known to security services, senior Whitehall sources have confirmed to the BBC.
One of the suspects is understood to be 28-year-old Muslim convert Michael Adebolajo, according to sources.
Sources said reports that the men had featured in "several investigations" in recent years, but were not deemed to be planning an attack, "were not inaccurate".
I've also read news of your Ministry of Defense telling soldiers that they are to no longer wear uniforms away from bases in the United Kingdom. I'll come out and say it. If true this is damned pathetic.
Defence sources said the order had been given that uniform should not be worn by those travelling alone, or on public transport as a "common sense precaution" immediately after the killing
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10075476/Woolwich-attack-troops-advised-not-to-wear-uniform-outside-bases.html
The FBI got another Chechen connected to the Boston bombing. Apparently he and Tamerlan (the dead boxer and bomber) were involved in another Boston area killing.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/justice/florida-fbi-shooting-boston/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
So here we have these people, all radical Muslims, on police and intelligence watch lists. It's not just America and Britain, they seem to be everywhere, as Mike has identified in Germany and even here in Canada:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/22/two-men-arrested-over-al-qaeda-inspired-plan-to-attack-a-via-rail-train-in-the-greater-toronto-area/
But like Grim says, what else can be done, in countries with freedom of religion and individual human rights?
IMHO, immigration laws/rules should be changed to allow non-citizens identified as "potential threats" (like the older Tsarnev brother who was identified as a dangerous person by Russian intelligence) to be deported. Personally speaking, I would rather have the injustice of an innocent being deported, then the injustice of one or a group of innocent citizens being murdered.
But then I wonder "What will be the breaking point when our governments will act with heavy hands?" I wonder that, because this shit is not going to stop.
I think this is the new meme from the politically correct elites...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lcmmmv870u1qf76m1o1_500.jpg&hash=1e2c2100005c282517597b7b576edb199e878cd3)
That deportation law exists here... but it is seriously broken when it takes 26 years to deport a known terrorist! >:(
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/05/13/pol-kenney-deportation.html
As soon as identified they should be shipped out immediately and let them fight their case from OUTSIDE the country.
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 23, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
But like Grim says, what else can be done, in countries with freedom of religion and individual human rights?
In these parts they can stop wasting resources pretending law-abiding Americans (Tea Party) are bad guys and start allocating them toward real problems.
Just wait until you have an immigration policy that mimics the mockery of an immigration policy we have here.
Quote from: Bison on May 23, 2013, 08:26:19 AM
Just wait until you have an immigration policy that mimics the mockery of an immigration policy we have here.
That's a good point. Britain at least has the benefit of having a large moat around it.
Quote from: Bison on May 23, 2013, 08:15:09 AM
I've also read news of your Ministry of Defense telling soldiers that they are to no longer wear uniforms away from bases in the United Kingdom. I'll come out and say it. If true this is damned pathetic.
Defence sources said the order had been given that uniform should not be worn by those travelling alone, or on public transport as a "common sense precaution" immediately after the killing
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10075476/Woolwich-attack-troops-advised-not-to-wear-uniform-outside-bases.html
The week after 9/11, we were told to stop wearing uniforms off-base (such as stopping to get groceries, in uniform, on your way home) and to take any identifying decals off of our vehicles, such as base parking passes. That directive lasted for around 2 years. Now (at least before this week's events), no one gives a shit once again. But that could change.
FYI, the #2 language spoken in my city, after English is not French. Surprised? It's Arabic. Yep. The good news is that we have a large immigrant Lebanese population that is predominantly Christian. The bad news, if you'd want to call it that, is the the Muslim population here is growing quickly. Hijabs and burkhas (not as much) are now common sights, and the first mosque just went up.
http://www.breakingnews.ca/2012/01/06/my-menu/nova-scotia/halifax-mosque-still-working-on-gym/
I'm sure you'll have your first anti-pork lawsuit soon enough. There is an undeniable trend that happens. Enjoy the ride I guess.
each and every mosque in the UK where hatred is been blasted out to the people inside (i respect that its just a few, i also respect that the police know exactly which ones they are) should be shut down - i seriously hope that this is a watershed moment at which point we we take a stand against this kind of rhetoric been allowed to be preached here - there was a muslim guy on tv this morning who said if they feel that strongly about the war then we should offer to fly them out to iraq/afghanistan for free, give them their tailban uniform and a gun when they land and tell them to go fight for their beliefs - it hadnt really hit home today until the news footage of a dad walking his little girl to school, he wouldnt let go of her hand and they crossed the road when a muslim guy was on their side - that maybe extreme, but its a terrible way to be
Quote from: undercovergeek on May 23, 2013, 08:39:21 AM
there was a muslim guy on tv this morning who said if they feel that strongly about the war then we should offer to fly them out to iraq/afghanistan for free, give them their tailban uniform and a gun when they land and tell them to go fight for their beliefs -
Make sure the gun you give them is non-functional.
Then shoot them as enemy combatants.
Works for me.
uniform decision has been over turned
Quoteeach and every mosque in the UK where hatred is been blasted out to the people inside
Even that is difficult since many do preach in a language foreign to the country where the mosque is located. Be that in the US, Britain or here in Germany, usually the authorities don't know shit about what's being preached in these 'religious' communities. It's a fact with the rules we have today in Western countries we can't prevent these acts to happen. To do so would require changing our states into fascist states and I doubt the majority would want that (besides even if they would want it it's not going to happen).
Quote from: Grimnirsson on May 23, 2013, 10:12:15 AM
Quoteeach and every mosque in the UK where hatred is been blasted out to the people inside
Even that is difficult since many do preach in a language foreign to the country where the mosque is located. Be that in the US, Britain or here in Germany, usually the authorities don't know shit about what's being preached in these 'religious' communities. It's a fact with the rules we have today in Western countries we can't prevent these acts to happen. To do so would require changing our states into fascist states and I doubt the majority would want that (besides even if they would want it it's not going to happen).
Well - what would be a start is to act on the intelligence we do have ...
Of course - now it begins ...
Both suspects in the killing of a serving soldier in London were known to security services, senior Whitehall sources have confirmed to the BBC.
One of the suspects is understood to be 28-year-old Muslim convert Michael Adebolajo, according to sources.
Sources said reports that the men had featured in "several investigations" in recent years, but were not deemed to be planning an attack, "were not inaccurate".
And act pre-emptively - is it that we dont know - or dont have the powers to act.
And to those muslims who say its not their religion ...
According to BBC sources, Mr Adebolajo, a Briton of Nigerian descent, comes from a devout Christian family but took up Islam after leaving college in 2001.....
Well I say it is ... since he didnt go around killing people when he was a christian. Whether they like it or not a large proportion of follwers of that religion see violence in its defence as a central tenant - you only have to look at the difference in what happens when someone supposedly blasphemes theirs - or a different one...
I read some piece of Apocalypse fiction awhile back (I don't remember what it was right now), but Britain was expelling foreigners and first generation Britons and essentially sealing off the country. France was in the middle of virtual civil war with uprisings from Muslim and north African youths everywhere and the rest of southern Europe wasn't in much better shape. None of this was the point of the story, it was simply part of the backdrop, but you could kind of see it happening under the right circumstances. Circumstances like yesterday multiplied many times over.
Kudos to the government for having the stones to call it what it was though, a terrorist attack. We are a little meeker about doing that on this side of the Atlantic. Heck, over here you can wear a uniform, kill 13 of your fellow soldiers while shouting "Allahu Akbar" and we classify it as a workplace incident.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on May 23, 2013, 12:12:45 PM
Well I say it is ... since he didnt go around killing people when he was a christian. Whether they like it or not a large proportion of follwers of that religion see violence in its defence as a central tenant - you only have to look at the difference in what happens when someone supposedly blasphemes theirs - or a different one...
Jihad is a central tenet of the muslim faith. Moderates claim that it is a spiritual struggle that they're required to fight. Clearly, however, a more literal interpretation is possible - and likely the source of most of our troubles.
Unfortunately that means that there's no way to reform the religion without a significant overhaul of its basic structure. That's something we don't hear much talk of, which also is curious.
Radicals define jihad as the conquest of non-muslim peoples.
I'm not sure what we're going to do to persuade them to give up that definition, but that's where our problem is. We want to be left alone and they want to attack us.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2013, 12:41:03 PM
Unfortunately that means that there's no way to reform the religion without a significant overhaul of its basic structure. That's something we
Im pretty fine with reformation through nuclear weapons. Ive always thought the muslim world needs more self lit glass floored parking lots.
Telling our service men and women not to wear uniform on the street is adding insult to injury.
The controversy now is why it took so long for the police to arrive on the scene. Some reports put this as long as 14 minutes, during which time, if these bastards had a mind to, they could have caused even more injuries.
The Muslim leader in the UK has, obviously, condemned the action as 'barbaric' (really?) and disassociated themselves from the atrocity. They must see that actions like these do nothing to endear Islam to non Muslims and can only increase tension and serve to alienate and raise suspicions against Muslims - how much will it take to tip rational people over the edge?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on May 23, 2013, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2013, 12:41:03 PM
Unfortunately that means that there's no way to reform the religion without a significant overhaul of its basic structure. That's something we
Im pretty fine with reformation through nuclear weapons. Ive always thought the muslim world needs more self lit glass floored parking lots.
Time to change my quote line!
how to properly express public displeasure.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/575580_531430933561252_1383818297_n.jpg)
the world certainly could use more public condemnation of these acts from Islamic authorities.
Agreed.
Good for them! The can see the writing on the wall.
I tried to get into their website to see if the announcement is legit. I could not get into it. But I did get onto their Glasgow chapter Facebook site. A fellow by the name of Mohammed MacLeod (I swear to God!) liked a comment!!
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 23, 2013, 02:27:47 PM
Good for them! The can see the writing on the wall.
I tried to get into their website to see if the announcement is legit. I could not get into it. But I did get onto their Glasgow chapter Facebook site. A fellow by the name of Mohammed MacLeod (I swear to God!) liked a comment!!
wait til you see a muslim guy talking in a glaswegian accent!
I'll wait until I can see such an individual confronted by a wee cheeky ned.
Muhammed MacLeod?? Sounds a little like Epstein from Welcome Back Kotter.
Quote from: Gusington on May 23, 2013, 03:04:33 PM
Muhammed MacLeod?? Sounds a little like Epstein from Welcome Back Kotter.
https://www.facebook.com/mohammad.macleod
"Wrong Muhammed McLeod? Try again." No FB I think this is the right one.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
Britain at least has the benefit of having a large moat around it.
True LB but the drawbridge seems to be permanently down and that is where the UK's problems start.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on May 23, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
the world certainly could use more public condemnation of these acts from Islamic authorities.
the problem is: Islamic authorities don't exist.
every Muslim has the right to study the Koran and secondary literature to make up his own interpretation of the rules given (especially if he did his studies at an famous Islamic center).
Some Islamic clerics will gather more followers than other, so he has more power of the word, but other Islamic clerics may see things different -together with their scholars-, and in best case both scholars groups will battle it out, first throwing fatwas against each others and then sending out theirs crowds on a jihad against the other.
But when challenged from the outside they stick together (as long as its favorable for both, a deal with the enemy is always an option to get rid of a competitor)
What one Muslim (self declared spokesman of one of dozens of splinter group) may say, has absolute no value for other Muslims, now or in the future, and not even for his own little group in the future, when 'insights' may shift by unforeseen incidents...
in Germany the Secretary of the Interior tried once to get a round table with represent-guys of major local Muslim groups, to speak about security.
what happened was that the Muslim groups fight over each other who is representing whom, and refused to talk about security (forwarding hinds about 'Boston-type' members in the future) at all.
instead they were complaining about being offended as
seen as to be under general suspicion and the society getting more islamophobic ...
Imagine a Christianity, were each selfdeclared evangelist is a full blown Pope, but with a medieval mind set and his own Swiss Guard, who fight against other 'Popes' with all means as hard as against heretics, pagans, or people of no-beliefs.
So whats the word of such a Pope's spokesperson would be good for a group of 'convert or get killed in the future'- pagans, who complain about an incident, inflicted on them by not even that Popes roughs ?
Quote from: The Puss on May 23, 2013, 04:03:46 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
Britain at least has the benefit of having a large moat around it.
True LB but the drawbridge seems to be permanently down and that is where the UK's problems start.
And no one seems to know how, or have the guts, to pull the drawbridge bloody-well up again.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 23, 2013, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 22, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
I bet the SAS will seek and destroy.
Seek and destroy who? This doesn't exactly seem like a long-planned operation being run by a terror organization from a foreign nation.
The reports were that high levels of government were convened to review the incident. They said it was a terror attack almost immediatley. There were probably others involved. Targeting a soldier outside a military base is not random violence. Neither is the manner of the killing. Somebody put a couple of thugs up to it.
Quote from: Barthheart on May 23, 2013, 08:22:55 AM
That deportation law exists here... but it is seriously broken when it takes 26 years to deport a known terrorist! >:(
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/05/13/pol-kenney-deportation.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/05/13/pol-kenney-deportation.html)
As soon as identified they should be shipped out immediately and let them fight their case from OUTSIDE the country.
Yes.
Quote from: MikeGER on May 23, 2013, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on May 23, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
the world certainly could use more public condemnation of these acts from Islamic authorities.
the problem is: Islamic authorities don't exist.
every Muslim has the right to study the Koran and secondary literature to make up his own interpretation of the rules given (especially if he did his studies at an famous Islamic center).
Some Islamic clerics will gather more followers than other, so he has more power of the word, but other Islamic clerics may see things different -together with their scholars-, and in best case both scholars groups will battle it out, first throwing fatwas against each others and then sending out theirs crowds on a jihad against the other.
But when challenged from the outside they stick together (as long as its favorable for both, a deal with the enemy is always an option to get rid of a competitor)
What one Muslim (self declared spokesman of one of dozens of splinter group) may say, has absolute no value for other Muslims, now or in the future, and not even for his own little group in the future, when 'insights' may shift by unforeseen incidents...
in Germany the Secretary of the Interior tried once to get a round table with represent-guys of major local Muslim groups, to speak about security.
what happened was that the Muslim groups fight over each other who is representing whom, and refused to talk about security (forwarding hinds about 'Boston-type' members in the future) at all.
instead they were complaining about being offended as seen as to be under general suspicion and the society getting more islamophobic ...
Imagine a Christianity, were each selfdeclared evangelist is a full blown Pope, but with a medieval mind set and his own Swiss Guard, who fight against other 'Popes' with all means as hard as against heretics, pagans, or people of no-beliefs.
So whats the word of such a Pope's spokesperson would be good for a group of 'convert or get killed in the future'- pagans, who complain about an incident, inflicted on them by not even that Popes roughs ?
Exactly the problem in syria - where it seems the resistance to Assad is gradually losing as they fight just as much amongst eachother and cant co-ordinate anything.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on May 23, 2013, 05:26:57 PM
Exactly the problem in syria - where it seems the resistance to Assad is gradually losing as they fight just as much amongst eachother and cant co-ordinate anything.
Im equally fine with them killing each other as long as they want and then nuking whoevers left.
^I'm comfortable with that too.
internet high five Gus.
the Jews have spoken.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2013, 04:50:05 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 23, 2013, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 22, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on May 22, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers are with the victim, his family, his comrades and the entire British military community.
This kind of barbarism is indicative of the sickness of extreme Islamic culture. Once the time for mourning has passed, I hope there will be changes made in Britain...and some vengeance.
I bet the SAS will seek and destroy.
Seek and destroy who? This doesn't exactly seem like a long-planned operation being run by a terror organization from a foreign nation.
The reports were that high levels of government were convened to review the incident. They said it was a terror attack almost immediatley. There were probably others involved. Targeting a soldier outside a military base is not random violence. Neither is the manner of the killing. Somebody put a couple of thugs up to it.
I doubt it. Targeting one guy sounds EXACTLY like what a couple of thugs do. An international plot is not being hatched to kill one soldier on the street...they wouldn't have stopped at one victim under those circumstances.
As for high levels of government engaging in review, it sounds like their was a complete failure on the part of intel/police/government to co-ordinate on two guys who were known to them. That's likely the reason for the review.
Strange, my take on their stopping at one guy was totally opposite. If they were thugs on a rampage they would have attacked the other people. The fact they stopped said to me they were carrying out orders. They did what they were supposed to do.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2013, 06:23:06 PM
Strange, my take on their stopping at one guy was totally opposite. If they were thugs on a rampage they would have attacked the other people. The fact they stopped said to me they were carrying out orders. They did what they were supposed to do.
But like I said, using an entire operation to kill one single person doesn't really make any sense and doesn't fit the MO at all. More of a spree is going to spread more terror, and that's the point for groups like that.
You're applying logic to people and situations that have none.
Apparently two others were arrested to in connection with this terrorist attack
QuoteBritish police have made two further arrests and searched multiple properties as they widened their investigation into Wednesday's fatal hacking to death of a British soldier in broad daylight on a busy London street by two Muslim terrorists.
The two arrests, of a man and a woman -- both 29 -- on suspicion of conspiracy to murder, raises the possibility that the gruesome attack was not a so-called "lone wolf" killing as once thought. Earlier it had been reported that the attackers were known to UK authorities and one had ties to a radical jihadist group well before the shocking attack that has stunned the United Kingdom and risked inflaming tensions between communities.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/23/brave-woman-tried-to-reason-with-london-attackers/#ixzz2UAC4Zd4F
This is the problem with western democracies ...
You see this piece of shi* is alowed to live in our country, send his kids to our schools, get protection from our police use our health care...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22650053
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 23, 2013, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2013, 06:23:06 PM
Strange, my take on their stopping at one guy was totally opposite. If they were thugs on a rampage they would have attacked the other people. The fact they stopped said to me they were carrying out orders. They did what they were supposed to do.
But like I said, using an entire operation to kill one single person doesn't really make any sense and doesn't fit the MO at all. More of a spree is going to spread more terror, and that's the point for groups like that.
Well - I am inclined to agree with bigglesworth. The fact that the objective of the attack was defined and limited - the obvious main objective being publicity, suggests this was more than just a couple of thugs intent on a rampage. Either they were intelligent enough to limit their objective themselves to a soldier or someone told them to. Dismissing these people as stupid dumb F**ks does nothing for us in fighting them. It only leads to us underestimating the threat - which given they were known to intelligence is obviously what happened.
.
To the point.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on May 24, 2013, 04:54:52 AM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 23, 2013, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2013, 06:23:06 PM
Strange, my take on their stopping at one guy was totally opposite. If they were thugs on a rampage they would have attacked the other people. The fact they stopped said to me they were carrying out orders. They did what they were supposed to do.
But like I said, using an entire operation to kill one single person doesn't really make any sense and doesn't fit the MO at all. More of a spree is going to spread more terror, and that's the point for groups like that.
Well - I am inclined to agree with bigglesworth. The fact that the objective of the attack was defined and limited - the obvious main objective being publicity, suggests this was more than just a couple of thugs intent on a rampage. Either they were intelligent enough to limit their objective themselves to a soldier or someone told them to. Dismissing these people as stupid dumb F**ks does nothing for us in fighting them. It only leads to us underestimating the threat - which given they were known to intelligence is obviously what happened.
I wasn't clear at all about what I meant. Could there be other locals involved? Absolutely. I just don't see an international operation at work here. This isn't likely to be something 'quarterbacked' out of Pakistan.
I also completely agree that dismissing these guys as stupid is a massive mistake.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 24, 2013, 04:28:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on May 24, 2013, 04:54:52 AM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 23, 2013, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2013, 06:23:06 PM
Strange, my take on their stopping at one guy was totally opposite. If they were thugs on a rampage they would have attacked the other people. The fact they stopped said to me they were carrying out orders. They did what they were supposed to do.
But like I said, using an entire operation to kill one single person doesn't really make any sense and doesn't fit the MO at all. More of a spree is going to spread more terror, and that's the point for groups like that.
Well - I am inclined to agree with bigglesworth. The fact that the objective of the attack was defined and limited - the obvious main objective being publicity, suggests this was more than just a couple of thugs intent on a rampage. Either they were intelligent enough to limit their objective themselves to a soldier or someone told them to. Dismissing these people as stupid dumb F**ks does nothing for us in fighting them. It only leads to us underestimating the threat - which given they were known to intelligence is obviously what happened.
I wasn't clear at all about what I meant. Could there be other locals involved? Absolutely. I just don't see an international operation at work here. This isn't likely to be something 'quarterbacked' out of Pakistan.
I also completely agree that dismissing these guys as stupid is a massive mistake.
Well, these guys had regular contact with several known radicals - several of whom were kicked out of the UK, one of which is actually living in pakistan. While I get your point - these people use whatever tools they have. So I think some kind of order coming from outside is not impossible. The action was local because thats where the tools were.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525)
As I said, it can happen everywhere, it will happen and we can't do much about it because these terrorists are normal citizens until they snap and then it's too late, it's not a military fighting force approaching your borders. The one big disadvantage of democracy is that it can't protect itself from such inner attacks the same way a fascist regime can. I suppose in the 3rd Reich the chance for such attacks by religious fanatics to happen was zero...but I also doubt that this is a world I would want to live in. It's all rather sad actually :(
Quote from: Grimnirsson on May 26, 2013, 03:38:14 AM
it will happen and we can't do much about it because these terrorists are normal citizens until they snap and then it's too late,
i humbly reject your argumentation !
its easy to single them out, even so called "lone wolf typ".
(which have not been witnessed yet in Muslim terror, there was always some 'friend to exchange ideas with', those guys are no serial-killers or Unabomber-types)
...hell, even i can do a probability calc if given the access to the databases
the individual will be:
-Muslim,
-probably more younger then older person, (add in agency statistics here)
-probably male (add in percentage here)
-probably more poor then rich (add in agency statistics here)
-probably more 'single' then 'family founding' (add in percentage here)
-visit certain places (known radical local mosques, or tee parlors, etc.)
-visit/contribute/consume certain virtual places (Internet, other networks,...)
-travel patterns (add in agency analysis here)
-will have communicated in person or by any other means with other 'borderline' or 'identified' radicals
-will have been show sign of radicalisation to people around him in his day to day life
(first most visible to non (yet) radical Muslims of his community, workplace, public places ...for example
complain about religious rules 'violated' by shopholders, chefs, etc... being easily 'offended',
asks for traditional Muslim privileges ... designated prayer room/prayer breaks at workplace, etc )
so government resources are scare, so put just the top 100 high 'scorers' who are in-country on surveillance,
if foreigner preemptive expell immediately!
Quote...hell, even i can do a probability calc if given the access to the databases
the individual will be:
-Muslim,
-probably more younger then older person, (add in agency statistics here)
-probably male (add in percentage here)
-probably more poor then rich (add in agency statistics here)
-probably more 'single' then 'family founding' (add in percentage here)
-visit certain places (known radical local mosques, or tee parlors, etc.)
-visit/contribute/consume certain virtual places (Internet, other networks,...)
-travel patterns (add in agency analysis here)
-will have communicated in person or by any other means with other 'borderline' or 'identified' radicals
-will have been show sign of radicalisation to people around him in his day to day life
(first most visible to non (yet) radical Muslims of his community, workplace, public places ...for example
complain about religious rules 'violated' by shopholders, chefs, etc... being easily 'offended',
asks for traditional Muslim privileges ... designated prayer room/prayer breaks at workplace, etc )
In a democracy where the citizens have rights and a certain freedom all of this is not a crime and therefore totally irrelevant when you try to protect others from a possible sudden snap or planned attack. It's not possible to observe those who have these characteristics 24/7 and it's probably not legal either. Ask the police, in many cases they can't do anything until someone really did something that clearly crossed the line although it's pretty clear a certain individual is not acting 'normal' or is actually up to something. I stick to it, in our form of government you can't prepare yourself for these attacks and prevent it. This is the Achilles' heel of a democratic system and will always be.
Quote from: MikeGER on May 23, 2013, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on May 23, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
the world certainly could use more public condemnation of these acts from Islamic authorities.
Imagine a Christianity, were each selfdeclared evangelist is a full blown Pope, but with a medieval mind set and his own Swiss Guard, who fight against other 'Popes' with all means as hard as against heretics, pagans, or people of no-beliefs.
It did happen in the Middle Ages and Renaissance period. The French Kings set up their Pope at Avignon (essentially a political tool), the HRE had his Anti-Pope and then you had the equivalent Patriarch of Constantinople. Add to this the leaders of the "heretical" sects of the Albigenses, Cathars, Hussites, Bogimils and you get a suitably heterogenous mix all claiming "the way" to paradise. You get even more fun and games with Martin Luther, Jean Calvin, John Knox, and Henry VIII of England sparking the rise of Protestantism. That's just the Christian pattern of religious leadership. Most of which hated each other and thought the others heretical or misguided. Why should Islam be any different?
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 11:19:57 AMWhy should Islam be any different?
And that's the rub.
Every religion has been abused.
But Islam was founded on the principle of conquest, not forgiveness.
I'd encourage you to read Fregosi's book. He doesn't pull punches looking at anyone, but it does add some perspective.
I was outraged by this barbaric attack. My initial thoughts were kneejerk: that we should crucify those two bast*rds as an example, and if someone burned down a Mosque or two, then who could be surprised?
When I calmed down a bit, I was rational. The overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK had nothing to do with the attack, and many were as shocked as I was, condemning the attack and its barbarity. Many muslims have publicly expressed the embarrassment they felt that these men claim to have acted in the name of Islam. It is totally unjust to make muslims across the UK suffer for the actions of a couple of fanatical killers who justify their vile acts in the name of religion. And yet two days after the attack over 800 attacks were reported in the news against muslims in the UK who are unconnected to this event. It saddens me greatly to hear of innocent people targeted for the actions of unconnected fanatics. Mob rule is not the way to go, lest we accept it like the Nazi gangs of the 1930's were accepted in Germany. Moreover, targeting innocent people polarises views which make matters more inflammatory and divisive.
As to the perpetrators, they should face trial. I am glad they were not killed, since we can learn from them, so it is harder for these things to happen in the future. We cannot abandon the rule of law, otherwise we just become barbarians like those two if we do. I think a guilty verdict is highly likely on the evidence. I hope that they get life for the rest of their natural life and are not segregated. I don't expect they will like prison much, assuming they survive the experience. Prison isn't a safe place if you're widely hated. I hope they will have time to reflect on their evil and now wasted lives, since public support for the dead soldier and his family has been massive here. If they wanted to demoralise us, they are wrong. It is a sad but uniting event.
Quote from: LongBlade on June 04, 2013, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 11:19:57 AMWhy should Islam be any different?
And that's the rub.
Every religion has been abused.
But Islam was founded on the principle of conquest, not forgiveness.
I'd encourage you to read Fregosi's book. He doesn't pull punches looking at anyone, but it does add some perspective.
Thanks LB :). On your recommendation, I'll try to get hold of it.
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 12:03:35 PM
Thanks LB :). On your recommendation, I'll try to get hold of it.
It's an easy read - he writes well. Let me know what you think. Used copies on Amazon can be had for two or three bucks. That's how I got mine.
Quote from: LongBlade on June 04, 2013, 12:12:12 PM
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 12:03:35 PM
Thanks LB :). On your recommendation, I'll try to get hold of it.
It's an easy read - he writes well. Let me know what you think. Used copies on Amazon can be had for two or three bucks. That's how I got mine.
Will do. :)
Quote from: LongBlade on June 04, 2013, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 11:19:57 AMWhy should Islam be any different?
And that's the rub.
Every religion has been abused.
But Islam was founded on the principle of conquest, not forgiveness.
I'd encourage you to read Fregosi's book. He doesn't pull punches looking at anyone, but it does add some perspective.
While I agree with your point, Kenny's point on the "tolerant" Islam of the Middle Ages has got me thinking. What made some Caliphates tolerant? Was it because they had managed to conquer their fill?
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 11:19:57 AM
Quote from: MikeGER on May 23, 2013, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on May 23, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
the world certainly could use more public condemnation of these acts from Islamic authorities.
Imagine a Christianity, were each selfdeclared evangelist is a full blown Pope, but with a medieval mind set and his own Swiss Guard, who fight against other 'Popes' with all means as hard as against heretics, pagans, or people of no-beliefs.
It did happen in the Middle Ages and Renaissance period. The French Kings set up their Pope at Avignon (essentially a political tool), the HRE had his Anti-Pope and then you had the equivalent Patriarch of Constantinople. Add to this the leaders of the "heretical" sects of the Albigenses, Cathars, Hussites, Bogimils and you get a suitably heterogenous mix all claiming "the way" to paradise. You get even more fun and games with Martin Luther, Jean Calvin, John Knox, and Henry VIII of England sparking the rise of Protestantism. That's just the Christian pattern of religious leadership. Most of which hated each other and thought the others heretical or misguided. Why should Islam be any different?
Hopefully Islam is not 600 years away from the same sort of peaceful evolution as Christianity seems to have attained.
QuoteWhen I calmed down a bit, I was rational. The overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK had nothing to do with the attack, and many were as shocked as I was, condemning the attack and its barbarity. Many muslims have publicly expressed the embarrassment they felt that these men claim to have acted in the name of Islam.
Although it may have happened previously, this is the first instance (that I am aware of) where Muslims have publicly stood up against jihadist acts of atrocity. Which is my only solace related to this attack.
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 04, 2013, 12:32:41 PM
While I agree with your point, Kenny's point on the "tolerant" Islam of the Middle Ages has got me thinking. What made some Caliphates tolerant? Was it because they had managed to conquer their fill?
Yes, several got used to the good life and became rather un-Islamic. They drank - a few to the point where it killed them.
Generally speaking didn't adopt that lifestyle.
The book's a good read. I'd recommend it.
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 12:00:42 PM
I was outraged by this barbaric attack. My initial thoughts were kneejerk: that we should crucify those two bast*rds as an example, and if someone burned down a Mosque or two, then who could be surprised?
When I calmed down a bit, I was rational. The overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK had nothing to do with the attack, and many were as shocked as I was, condemning the attack and its barbarity. Many muslims have publicly expressed the embarrassment they felt that these men claim to have acted in the name of Islam. It is totally unjust to make muslims across the UK suffer for the actions of a couple of fanatical killers who justify their vile acts in the name of religion. And yet two days after the attack over 800 attacks were reported in the news against muslims in the UK who are unconnected to this event. It saddens me greatly to hear of innocent people targeted for the actions of unconnected fanatics. Mob rule is not the way to go, lest we accept it like the Nazi gangs of the 1930's were accepted in Germany. Moreover, targeting innocent people polarises views which make matters more inflammatory and divisive.
As to the perpetrators, they should face trial. I am glad they were not killed, since we can learn from them, so it is harder for these things to happen in the future. We cannot abandon the rule of law, otherwise we just become barbarians like those two if we do. I think a guilty verdict is highly likely on the evidence. I hope that they get life for the rest of their natural life and are not segregated. I don't expect they will like prison much, assuming they survive the experience. Prison isn't a safe place if you're widely hated. I hope they will have time to reflect on their evil and now wasted lives, since public support for the dead soldier and his family has been massive here. If they wanted to demoralise us, they are wrong. It is a sad but uniting event.
Believe me - I'd have taken death over forty years in a prison.
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 04, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
QuoteWhen I calmed down a bit, I was rational. The overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK had nothing to do with the attack, and many were as shocked as I was, condemning the attack and its barbarity. Many muslims have publicly expressed the embarrassment they felt that these men claim to have acted in the name of Islam.
Although it may have happened previously, this is the first instance (that I am aware of) where Muslims have publicly stood up against jihadist acts of atrocity. Which is my only solace related to this attack.
I think a lot of muslims in the UK have disassociated themselves with the Jihadist (often Salafi or Wahibi) extremists, including former Jihadists who now work with the Police and government agencies to combat terrorism. Realistically the Jihadists tend to represent a tiny minority of disaffected citizens and many muslims of my acquaintance are horrified to be seen as associated with them. I think times may be changing and certainly public revulsion at this act has not been limited to non-muslims. An Islamic centre was burned down today in north London. I don't condone it, sadly it is the innocent that get hurt and not the fanatical nutjobs.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on June 04, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Believe me - I'd have taken death over forty years in a prison.
It is certainly the easier way out. Leaving aside the intel benefits of interrogating the prisoner, the prisoner will suffer without doubt. Whether they'd live forty years is moot. Being widely hated, you'd be vulnerable on a daily basis, and probably end up in solitary on suicide watch. Who knows what someone might put in your meds if you got ill... :-\ You are right - a quick death at the scene would involve much less suffering.
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2013, 12:00:42 PM
I was outraged by this barbaric attack. My initial thoughts were kneejerk: that we should crucify those two bast*rds as an example, and if someone burned down a Mosque or two, then who could be surprised?
When I calmed down a bit, I was rational. The overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK had nothing to do with the attack, and many were as shocked as I was, condemning the attack and its barbarity. Many muslims have publicly expressed the embarrassment they felt that these men claim to have acted in the name of Islam. It is totally unjust to make muslims across the UK suffer for the actions of a couple of fanatical killers who justify their vile acts in the name of religion. And yet two days after the attack over 800 attacks were reported in the news against muslims in the UK who are unconnected to this event. It saddens me greatly to hear of innocent people targeted for the actions of unconnected fanatics. Mob rule is not the way to go, lest we accept it like the Nazi gangs of the 1930's were accepted in Germany. Moreover, targeting innocent people polarises views which make matters more inflammatory and divisive.
As to the perpetrators, they should face trial. I am glad they were not killed, since we can learn from them, so it is harder for these things to happen in the future. We cannot abandon the rule of law, otherwise we just become barbarians like those two if we do. I think a guilty verdict is highly likely on the evidence. I hope that they get life for the rest of their natural life and are not segregated. I don't expect they will like prison much, assuming they survive the experience. Prison isn't a safe place if you're widely hated. I hope they will have time to reflect on their evil and now wasted lives, since public support for the dead soldier and his family has been massive here. If they wanted to demoralise us, they are wrong. It is a sad but uniting event.
Pretty much where I stand on this, especially the last paragraph