Brutal dictator and enemy of the west he certainly is, but at least he doesn't make his wife wear a burkha.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnn%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F120131033639-bashar-3-horizontal-gallery.jpg&hash=3d5529683f01cfaa77ebeea95aeee9fd26251dbf)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnn%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F120131033243-bashar-6-horizontal-gallery.jpg&hash=d2f8433466618ca4fa88c1186e882affba87ba1d)
Quote"Bashar's problem is that he listens to everything but denies and forgets quickly. You discuss an issue with him in the morning and another person comes along and changes his mind.
"Politically, Bashar does not have a consistent ideology; he changes his opinion according to his interests and that of the regime's."
And the regime is a family affair. Al-Assad's younger brother Maher commands an elite division of the army, and is accused of widespread human rights abuses. His cousin Rami Makhlouf is the richest man in Syria.
The Assads belong to Syria's Alawite minority, who according to the president's uncle Rifaat, are driven by fears they could be overwhelmed. "There is no doubt that the Alawites are a minority who are in fear of the outcome and they are driven by that fear factor," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/31/world/meast/syria-assad-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Interesting that the Alawites are an off-shoot of Shi'ite Islam, with Iran being the theological center of the Shi'ite. We often view the theocracy of Iran as 'abnormal' (to say the least).
But these Assads look like people the west should be able to deal with.
From wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawite
Quote
The origin of the Alawis is disputed. The Alawis themselves trace their origins to the followers of the eleventh Imām, Hassan al-'Askarī (d. 873), and his pupil ibn Nuṣayr (d. 868).[17]
The sect seems to have been organised by a follower of Muḥammad ibn Nuṣayr known as al-Khasibi, who died in Aleppo about 969. In 1032 Al-Khaṣībī's grandson and pupil al-Tabarani moved to Latakia, which was then controlled by the Byzantine Empire. Al-Tabarani became the perfector of the Alawi faith through his numerous writings. He and his pupils converted the rural population of the Syrian Coastal Mountain Range and the plain of Cilicia to the Alawi faith.[18] Samuel Lyde believed the population was of ancient Canaanite origins, but that parts had come from where the sect originated.[page needed][19] Professor Felix von Luschan (1911), according to his conclusions from anthropometric measurements, made the Alawites and other Near Eastern religious minorities the modern representatives of the ancient Hittites.[20]
Under the Ottoman Empire they were ill treated,[21] and they resisted an attempt to convert them to Sunni Islam.[22] They revolted against the Ottomans on several occasions, and maintained virtual autonomy in their mountains.[23] T. E. Lawrence wrote: "The sect, vital in itself, was clannish in feeling and politics. One Nosairi would not betray another, and would hardly not betray an unbeliever."[24] In the early part of the 20th century, the Sunnis sat on the wealth and dominated politics, while Alawites lived as poor peasants.[25][26]
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Syria and Lebanon came under a French mandate. The French, when they occupied Syria in 1920, recognized the term "Alawi", gave autonomy to them and other minority groups, and accepted them into their colonial troops.[27] Under the mandate, many Alawi chieftains supported the notion of a separate Alawi nation and tried to convert their autonomy into independence. A territory of "Alaouites" was created in 1925. In May 1930, the Government of Latakia was created; it lasted until February 28, 1937, when it was incorporated into Syria.[28]
In 1939 a portion of northwest Syria, the Sanjak of Alexandretta, now Hatay, that contained a large number of Alawis, was given to Turkey by the French following a plebiscite carried out in the province under the guidance of League of Nations which favored joining Turkey. However, this development greatly angered the Alawi community and Syrians in general. In 1938, the Turkish military had gone into Alexandretta and expelled most of its Arab and Armenian inhabitants[neutrality is disputed].[29] Before this, Alawi Arabs and Armenians were the majority of the province's population[neutrality is disputed][29] Zaki al-Arsuzi, the young Alawi leader from Iskandarun province in the Sanjak of Alexandretta, who led the resistance to the annexation of his province to the Turks, later became a founder of the Ba'ath Party along with the Eastern Orthodox Christian schoolteacher Michel Aflaq. After World War II, Salman Al Murshid played a major role in uniting the Alawi province with Syria. He was executed by the newly independent Syrian government in Damascus on December 12, 1946 only three days after a hasty political trial.
Following Syrian independence
Syria became independent on April 17, 1946. Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Syria endured a succession of military coups in 1949, the rise of the Ba'ath Party, and unification of the country with Egypt in the United Arab Republic in 1958. The UAR lasted for three years and broke apart in 1961, when a group of army officers seized power and declared Syria independent again. A further succession of coups ensued until a secretive military committee, which included a number of disgruntled Alawi officers, including Hafez al-Assad and Salah Jadid, helped the Ba'ath Party take power in 1963. In 1966, Alawi-oriented military officers successfully rebelled and expelled the old Ba'ath that had looked to the Christian Michel Aflaq and the Sunni Muslim Salah al-Din al-Bitar for leadership. They promoted Zaki al-Arsuzi as the "Socrates" of their reconstituted Ba'ath Party.
In 1970, then-Air Force General Hafez al-Assad, an Alawite, took power and instigated a "Correctionist Movement" in the Ba'ath Party.[30] His coming to power has been compared to "an untouchable becoming maharajah in India or a Jew becoming tsar in Russia—an unprecedented development shocking to the majority population which had monopolized power for so many centuries."[27]
In 1971 al-Assad became president of Syria, a function that the Constitution allows only a Sunni Muslim to hold. In 1973 a new constitution was published that omitted the old requirement that the religion of the state is Islam and replaced it with the statement that the religion of the republic's president is Islam. Protests erupted when the statement was altered,[31] and to satisfy this requirement in 1974, Musa Sadr, a leader of the Twelvers of Lebanon and founder of the Amal Movement who had earlier sought to unite Lebanese Alawis and Shias under the Supreme Islamic Shiite Council without success,[3] issued a fatwa stating that Alawis were a community of Twelver Shia Muslims.[32][33] Under the authoritarian but secular Assad government, religious minorities were tolerated, political dissent was not.
After the death of Hafez al-Assad in 2000, his son Bashar al-Assad maintained the outlines of his father's governance.[citation needed] Although the Alawis comprise the entirety of the top military and intelligence offices, government employees from lower bureaucratic ranks are largely from the majority Sunni Muslim faith, who represent about 74% of Syria's population. Today the Alawis exist as a minority, but are the most politically powerful sect in Syria and the only one with direct government control.
In the grand scheme of things, the Alawites don't seem so bad, even tolerant, religiously speaking:
Quote
Sunni scholars such as Ibn Kathir, on the other hand, have historically categorized Alawis as pagans in their religious works and documents.[21] At least one source has compared them to Baha'is, Babis, Bektashis, Ahmadis, and "similar groups that have arisen within the Muslim community", and declared that "it has always been the consensus of the Muslim Ulama, both Sunni and Shi'i, that the Nusayri Alawi are kuffar unbelievers and mushrikun polytheists."[13] However the prominent Sunni Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, issued a fatwah recognizing them as part of the Muslim community in the interest of Arab nationalism.[34]
According to Yaron Friedman, distinct Alawi beliefs include the belief that prayers are not necessary, they don't fast, nor perform pilgrimage, nor have specific places of worship.[35] The most obvious difference between Alawites and Shi'ite Muslims, is that Alawis believe the Sunni Caliph and Shi'ite Imam Ali is an incarnation of one of the persons of God and wholly divine, along with Jesus Christ, The Prophet Muhammad and many other eastern holy men. Many of the tenets of the faith are secret and known only to a select few Alawi.[21] In the 19th century, however, an Alawite named Sulaiman al-Adni converted to Christianity and in 1863, compiled a book called Al-Bakurah as-Suliamaniya fi Kashf Asrar ad-Diyanah an-Nusairiyah (The First Fruits of Sulaiman in Revealing the Secrets of the Nusairi Religion). Orientalists like Louis Massignon gained access to a number of Nusairi manuscripts.[13]
According to some sources, Alawis have integrated doctrines from other religions (Syncretism), in particular from Ismaili Islam and Christianity.[8][21][33] According to scholar Cyril Glasse, it is thought that "as a small, historically beleaguered ethnic group", the Alawi "absorbed elements" from the different religions that influenced their area from Hellenistic times onward,[33] while maintaining their own beliefs, and "pretended to adhere to the dominant religion of the age."[33] Alawites are reported to celebrate certain Christian festivals, "in their own way",[33] including Christmas, Easter, and Palm Sunday, and their religious ceremonies make use of bread and wine.[27] According to Matti Moosa, a "leading scholar of the Nusayris",
The Christian elements in the Alawite sect are unmistakable. They include the concept of trinity; the celebration of Christmas, the consecration of the Qurban, that is, the sacrament of the flesh and blood which Christ offered to his disciples, and, most important, the celebration of the Quddas (although Shia scholars dispute these allegations) (a lengthy prayer proclaiming the divine attributes of Ali and the personification of all the biblical patriarchs from Adam to Simon Peter, who preached the gospel sermon originating the Church (Matthew 16:18, Acts 2), who is perceived as the embodiment of true Islam).[36]
And maybe this is part of the problem. The Sunni majority population doesn't like 'em.
But will change in Syria be a good thing, overall, for us?
"Democracy" in Syria might equate Alawite extermination and the instalment of a Sunni theocracy in the guise of the Islamic Brotherhood.
Well one of the consequences that was plain as day once the Arab spring uprising began was that the secular governments would be replaced with a much heavier handed theocratic government. So you go from no manditory hajib to manditory hajib wearing not to mention the greater strain in Middle Eastern politics concerning Isreal. I also do not believe that the new governments will be any less heavy handed with law and opposition than the one's they replaced.
My only hope is that this "Arab Spring" (as in the rise of a fundamentalist drive for increased freedom to be more "fundamentalist", Islamic-ally speaking) is nothing more than a phase that will last less than 50 years. That once they get this out of their system, their religion will moderate- as the other Abrahamic religions have (generally speaking).
I don't know how that happens when they indoctrinate their children with hate from birth.
This won't end well for them.
The pendulum always swings back the other direction. It's just a matter of time.
I hope so. But I'm not optimistic.
Remember there was a time that the middle east was enlightened and the west was not. However at this point I think you are talking several generations before the shift begins in earnest.
Quote from: Bison on January 31, 2012, 03:06:23 PM
Remember there was a time that the middle east was enlightened and the west was not. However at this point I think you are talking several generations before the shift begins in earnest.
My concern is one of those radicals will eventually do something that was draw our attention in a way that will leave their homeland with a glassy finish.
Given enough centuries, they probably might pull through this. I'm just not sure they won't qualify for a mass Darwin Award before then.
Oh don't get me wrong they have many years of killing each other ahead for themselves. Hopefully it stays contained mostly to the region. Although I doubt it will be completely.
My hope is that the easy access to information, via the internet and telecommunications, will dramatically cut-down on the timeline to moderate enlightenment.
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 03:13:42 PM
My hope is that the easy access to information, via the internet and telecommunications, will dramatically cut-down on the timeline to moderate enlightenment.
In the war of propaganda it works in both directions.
Totally OT, but when I saw this thread title, at first I saw Current Events: Skyrim Watch.
That civil war just HAS to end!
They need to get their hate out thru hockey like us Canucks !
Update: the US is closing the embassy in Syria and withdrawing all diplomats.
Here's a detailed report from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16902819
more military leaders defecting and forming opposition groups
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/02/key-leader-leave-syrian-army-form.html
Hmm. Wonder if we might just have a ballgame here...
I'm kinda wondering if France will lead teh charge like last time in Libya - they seem to be getting into this "we're a world power" thing ?
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 06, 2012, 11:47:48 AM
I'm kinda wondering if France will lead teh charge like last time in Libya - they seem to be getting into this "we're a world power" thing ?
Nature ahbores a vacuum, and the US is doing its best to imitate one right now.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 06, 2012, 12:09:45 PM
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 06, 2012, 11:47:48 AM
I'm kinda wondering if France will lead teh charge like last time in Libya - they seem to be getting into this "we're a world power" thing ?
Nature ahbores a vacuum, and the US is doing its best to imitate one right now.
are you saying we suck? :o
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 06, 2012, 01:36:25 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on February 06, 2012, 12:09:45 PM
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 06, 2012, 11:47:48 AM
I'm kinda wondering if France will lead teh charge like last time in Libya - they seem to be getting into this "we're a world power" thing ?
Nature ahbores a vacuum, and the US is doing its best to imitate one right now.
are you saying we suck? :o
Oreck Obama?
Hopefully the Russians will be able to wade thru all the dead kids in the streets to get an arrangement in place:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/07/slaughter-in-syria-rocket-attacks-blood-in-the-streets-and-a-relentless-fight-for-freedom/?hpt=hp_t1
Hopefully Assad will get the same kind of justice Muammar did !
The water just got a little warmer.
QuoteAlthough the U.S. focus remains on exerting diplomatic and economic pressure on Syria, the Pentagon and the U.S. Central Command have begun a preliminary internal review of U.S. military capabilities, CNN has learned.
The options are being prepared in the event President Barack Obama were to call for them. Two senior administration officials who spoke about the review to CNN emphasized that U.S. policy for now remains the use of non-military options.
The focus on diplomatic options was underscored by the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations in an interview with CNN on Tuesday.
"Before we start talking about military options, we very much want to ensure that we have exhausted all the political, economic and diplomatic means at our disposal," Ambassador Susan Rice said on CNN's "Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer."
Source: http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/07/us-military-beginning-review-of-syria-options/
Would we go in unilaterally, do you think? Or would we wait for someone else (Turkey?) to make the first move?
Obama seems to think enough has been spent on other people's problems. Spend the money on the US.
Actually there is no money so scratch that. Let the Arabs sort it out.
I agree with that sentiment - the arabs will always be the first to point fingers if the West becomes involved - however, it does provide our pilots with valuable combat experience ;)
Quote from: Martok on February 09, 2012, 01:49:25 AM
Would we go in unilaterally, do you think? Or would we wait for someone else (Turkey?) to make the first move?
Nah. Syria shares a border with Iraq and Israel. We just pull a few trucks up to the border and yell, "Free guns and ammo!"
The only problem is Jarhead will attempt a solo swim across the Atlantic to get in on some of that, but as long as we have some notice we should be able to distract him.
Redux of the Libya scenario is unlikely
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/02/redux-of-libya-in-syria-dont-bet-on-it.html
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 09, 2012, 10:13:16 AM
Redux of the Libya scenario is unlikely
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/02/redux-of-libya-in-syria-dont-bet-on-it.html
Good stuff. Pushing Russian influence out of the region would be a win IMHO, but inevitably there would be blowback. However, given the recent propensity for Russia to try and relive its USSR glory days, I can't see how they can cause too much more trouble for us, at least diplomatically. They're hardly disposed to play nice now. It's not like they'll get any friendlier if we let them keep Syria.
Man, the heat is really being cranked-up ! I was listening to the BBC yesterday and people are going crazy asking why there has been no intervention. It is also a very common theme in some of the Canadian media. Personally, I just can't see it happening.....
I don't foresee American tanks rolling into Damascus, either.
I do think we'll be happy to give the rebels guns and ammo. The question is whether we'll park an aircraft carrier in the Med and help from that perspective.
I'm not well acquainted with Syrian politics, but in almost every case in the Mid-East the only organized opposition has been radicals and the solution appears to be worse than the problem. I'd love to knock off a pro-Iranian regime like Syria, but if all we get is something worse? I dunno. I'd like to hear more about alternative solutions before I start banging the drums of war.
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 10, 2012, 09:05:36 AM
Man, the heat is really being cranked-up ! I was listening to the BBC yesterday and people are going crazy asking why there has been no intervention. It is also a very common theme in some of the Canadian media. Personally, I just can't see it happening.....
Syria is too complicated for an intervention. Syria borders Turkey (NATO member), Lebanon (Hezbollah), Israel, Jordan, and Iraq (Kurdistan).
That tells me it would require an Iraq-like intervention.
Those clean lines that make up the borders are holdovers from a century ago. Part of me thinks it might be better to let that hold region fall apart and rework the borders the old fashioned way. But I don't think that kind of instability is what we need right now.
It is, as they say, a sticky wicket.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 10, 2012, 10:12:26 AM
Part of me thinks it might be better to let that hold region fall apart and rework the borders the old fashioned way. But I don't think that kind of instability is what we need right now.
You know, I don't have a lot of experience with wickets, be they stick or not, but I do atotally agree with both of the above points....
As I age I watch the news less and less because it depresses me but last night I paid particular attention to what is happening in Syria. I saw a few clips that mentioned Syria's army being 'legit' and a 'true threat' to any force (NATO, US, Russia) that would try to intervene there. Do you all think this is true? The reports mentioned that Syria has 300,000+ troops, 5500 tanks, modern missile tech, chemical and biological weapons, etc. How dangerous are there armed forces? Are they more dangerous on paper until we start to send drones over there and rip them to shreds?
Quote from: Gusington on February 10, 2012, 10:49:26 AM
As I age I watch the news less and less because it depresses me but last night I paid particular attention to what is happening in Syria. I saw a few clips that mentioned Syria's army being 'legit' and a 'true threat' to any force (NATO, US, Russia) that would try to intervene there. Do you all think this is true? The reports mentioned that Syria has 300,000+ troops, 5500 tanks, modern missile tech, chemical and biological weapons, etc. How dangerous are there armed forces? Are they more dangerous on paper until we start to send drones over there and rip them to shreds?
If the reports are true, part of the Syrian is fracturing. As in Libya, reports are saying that regular army soldiers are defecting to the rebels. Obviously, a fractured army is not as effective as a solid army.
I don't think their performance would be as impressive as the numbers sound. How many times have the Israeli's handed them their ass in a pickle jar ! I also tend to think if they were that good they wouldn't be firing on their own people...
As I understand it, Syria has always been fractured. Elements were pulling against the US and Israel. Assad, after all, wasn't supposed to even rule - he was (IIRC) an eye doctor in the UK until his brother bit the dust. He seems to have been a fast learner, but I don't think crushing rebellions was his first love.
I suppose the question as to whether we want Syria to blow up or not is moot. It's doing it. The question is how to best shape the outcome so that it favors us. To that end parking a carrier off the coast is probably our best course of action.
It angers me that Russia and China have blocked any kind of action against Syria as they use heavy artillery on their own cities. But on the flip side maybe I shouldn't care so much since, as a jew, most over there wouldn't care if my family got blown to bits.
And thus a great example of why I watch less news.
Quote from: Gusington on February 10, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
It angers me that Russia and China have blocked any kind of action against Syria as they use heavy artillery on their own cities.
I know right, how could anyone
not oppose the use of heavy artillery against their own citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War)?!
^No fair you're getting mixing Muslims in! Oh wait.
Fox is reporting some Syrian officials are now considering bailing out.
QuoteObama administration officials suggested Friday that Syrian elites are starting to prepare exit plans as violence in the country escalates.
State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland would not go into detail when asked about the movement of elite Syrians, including those considered to be backers of President Bashar Assad. However, she said, "At this point, let me just assert that we are beginning to see this trend accelerate."
source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/10/syrian-elites-looking-for-way-out-officials-say/
Sen. John McCain was just on TV a moment ago in an interview on Fox. He flatly predicted that Assad would go and it was simply a question of who would replace him.
He also stated that the Iranians have troops in Syria now helping to try and prop up the regime.
^That is very interesting.
Perhaps the Iranians are coving the regime's escape?
Dunno. Interesting thought, 40.
Someone has bumped off a general in the capitol.
QuoteSyria's state-run news agency says gunmen have assassinated an army general in the capital Damascus.
Source: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/02/11/gunmen-assassinate-army-general-in-damascus/#ixzz1m8Les7w8
Yeah, I read that yesterday afternoon.
So at what point do we stop calling it an "uprising" and just start calling it a civil war? They're surely on the brink, if not already there.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 11, 2012, 10:14:14 PM
Someone has bumped off a general in the capitol.
QuoteSyria's state-run news agency says gunmen have assassinated an army general in the capital Damascus.
Source: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/02/11/gunmen-assassinate-army-general-in-damascus/#ixzz1m8Les7w8
A summary of what I read somewhere yesterday:
The rebel army spokesman indicated that this general was not an active player in the Assad regime but was well connected and
that he may have been bumped off by the Regime itself because he might have been preparing to defect and would have been
the highest military official to do so up to now. He had connections inside the Syrian Air Force's intelligence apparatus which
is apparently one of the big players in internal security.
It's a civil war now in all but name.
Maybe the rebels would be better off with a corporate sponsor since the UN won't get involved. "This civil war is brought to by Pepsi ! The official drink of Syrian rebel officers"
I've heard that they prefer Dr. Pepper.
Say, how much snow did ya get?
Arab League Calls for Joint Arab-UN Peacekeeping Force for Syria (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-12/arab-league-calls-for-joint-arab-un-peacekeeping-force-for-syria.html)
What do you guys think? A potential game-changer, or just more noise?
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 12, 2012, 03:19:47 PM
Maybe the rebels would be better off with a corporate sponsor since the UN won't get involved. "This civil war is brought to by Pepsi ! The official drink of Syrian rebel officers"
Ha! Brilliant,
MIGMaster. ;D
We gotta jump on it quick Martok - before the shares go up !
QuoteSyrian residents say they're bracing for full-blown war.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/14/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Quote
"Everyone we've been talking to ... believes that the country is heading towards, or already is in, a full-blown war, and recovering from that is going to be incredibly challenging," said CNN's Arwa Damon, who reported from inside Syria early Tuesday.
The Syrian civil war is now available in flash simulation. :P
http://www.crazyhoroscopes.com/play-flash-game.php?title=monkey-poo-fight (http://www.crazyhoroscopes.com/play-flash-game.php?title=monkey-poo-fight)
Some reports of Syrian forces using nerve gas outside of Homs this morning..... As afr as I can tell there has been no verification ....
Holy crap that's bad news!
Nerve gas? Got a link for that? If the UN doesn't act on that then they really are totally worthless.
I know we ran this article at GN this morning
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/02/trying-to-keep-chemical-sam-weapons-off.html
not exactly the story you're looking for, but related
^Thanks. I would like to think that use of NBC would be an automatic smackdown for the old Syrian regime but then no one did a thing when Hussein gassed the Kurds and when both Iran and Iraq used NBC on each other.
The information I received came from a buddy of mine who is involved with ermgency planning, etc.... He subscribes to an RSS feed thru the RSOE-EDIS
Here is their website:
http://www.rsoe.hu/index.php?lang=en
^That's a fascinating site...well to me, anyway. And out of Budapest no less. I'd imagine every day is an emergency there.
I'm looking to get into emergency management. First I have to go back to school though.
Found this, it implicates Iranians and Russians in helping deploy the gas:
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/14/194585.html
Quote from: Gusington on February 15, 2012, 09:59:07 AM
Nerve gas? Got a link for that? If the UN doesn't act on that then they really are totally worthless.
The UN has been worthless for a long time now, Gus.
It seems as though every player on the globe thinks it has an interest in Syria - except the US: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/14/dempsey-syria-much-different-than-libya-big-players-involved-in-conflict/
That article does nothing but confuse me. It says we're being cautious because all the players are getting into Syria. To my mind if everyone is is trying to get a toe in the pool, we ought to be exerting our own influence there, too. Shows what I know.
I heard in passing on TV that back in the early 80's Assad's father killed 10,000 people in Homs. Looks like they're keeping up a family tradition.
Yeah - Homs is a real popular target for the ruling elite. I think memories of the 80's have probably only helped to strengthen the resolve of those ready for a change.
The story I posted above implicates the Iranians and the Russians. That is bad if true.
Quote from: Gusington on February 15, 2012, 11:00:50 AM
The story I posted above implicates the Iranians and the Russians. That is bad if true.
It just means we're looking like a bunch of idiots for not having a dog in the fight.
I'm naive. I like to think if people are getting gassed it's a call to action. Or at least to fire a few warning shots. Or at a minimum sending a nice cheese and sausage basket to the Russian and Iranian contingents and asking them nicely to cut it out in a strongly worded note.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 15, 2012, 11:02:04 AM
Quote from: Gusington on February 15, 2012, 11:00:50 AM
The story I posted above implicates the Iranians and the Russians. That is bad if true.
It just means we're looking like a bunch of idiots for not having a dog in the fight.
I dunno about that. We've basically said that this is the Arab League's fight, not ours. Besides, your dogs (I'd say "ours", but let's get real here, my dogs aren't as large or numerous as your dogs) are probably there, but very well concealed. Maybe even hiding behind an Israeli dog that looks just like a Syrian dog to the casual observer.
Quote from: Centurion40 on February 15, 2012, 11:34:45 AM
I dunno about that. We've basically said that this is the Arab League's fight, not ours. Besides, your dogs (I'd say "ours", but let's get real here, my dogs aren't as large or numerous as your dogs) are probably there, but very well concealed. Maybe even hiding behind an Israeli dog that looks just like a Syrian dog to the casual observer.
That's the way it ought to be. I suspect you're right, but given this present crew, I have my doubts.
The hesitation/obfuscation may be a vote of no-confidence in the rebels. In the article above, it notes that the Syrians have a "capable military." Translation: rebels are going to lose.
That said, the Syrians are hardly friends. Openly moving against them is hardly less inflammatory than covertly - the only people likely to be fooled by a covert op are the folks who watch the news and only accept it if the talking head says it is so.
Strategic Airstrikes are the only answer - putting boots on the ground would a frakkin' mess ! If they cruise missiled the hell outta the leadership the tide may change rapidly. I suspect most of those in the military have no love for Assad either. An Operation El Dorado Canyon type of strike updated to use cruise missiles and maybe French and Arab assets may be a decent mix. Takes the focus of the US and the UK But the first thing to do is put China and Russia on the spot with a short time limit to solve the crisis - then we can point at thier failure and inaction.
If the nerve gas story is true then Russia needs to be dealt with a little harsher.
And if the defections continue maybe Syria's 'capable' air force can do the job for the West.
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 15, 2012, 11:53:20 AM
Strategic Airstrikes are the only answer - putting boots on the ground would a frakkin' mess ! If they cruise missiled the hell outta the leadership the tide may change rapidly. I suspect most of those in the military have no love for Assad either. An Operation El Dorado Canyon type of strike updated to use cruise missiles and maybe French and Arab assets may be a decent mix. Takes the focus of the US and the UK But the first thing to do is put China and Russia on the spot with a short time limit to solve the crisis - then we can point at thier failure and inaction.
Yer a Machiavellian SOB!!! I dig it. 8)
You should see the secret plans I have to frame Putin as the head of a homosexual russian association that trade nasty favors with Siberian Spider Monkeys.
^You Northerners are out of your gourds!
Come to the Dark...errr....Northern Side, Gus ! Mu HA HA HA
Do you have cookies?
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Cookies and the Putin Plan 8)
whoa
Think it over Dude - It's not for everybody. It's a good thing that 40Cent, Shell and I are hardy Maritimers ;)
I've had a bad thing to say about the North. Hot women. Good food. Hell you even have baseball. But there's still that little tidbit of Britishness up there that irks me.
Pish tosh!I don't know what you are talking about old chap.
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Quote from: MIGMaster on February 15, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
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Cookies and the Putin Plan 8)
Ironclad proof if I've ever seen it. The man's election chances are doomed.
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Quote from: LongBlade on February 15, 2012, 10:47:45 AM
I heard in passing on TV that back in the early 80's Assad's father killed 10,000 people in Homs. Looks like they're keeping up a family tradition.
IIRC that was the town of Hama. Thomas Friedman in the book
'Beirut to Jerusalem' refers to the resulting paradigm shift in how dictators
deal with organized urban revolt as 'the Hama Rules'.
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 15, 2012, 11:53:20 AM
Strategic Airstrikes are the only answer - putting boots on the ground would a frakkin' mess ! If they cruise missiled the hell outta the leadership the tide may change rapidly. I suspect most of those in the military have no love for Assad either. An Operation El Dorado Canyon type of strike updated to use cruise missiles and maybe French and Arab assets may be a decent mix. Takes the focus of the US and the UK But the first thing to do is put China and Russia on the spot with a short time limit to solve the crisis - then we can point at thier failure and inaction.
Where can you launch from? If the Ruskies have their naval base on the limited coast its kind of difficult to sail up with a flotilla for missile launches.
How's about the Golan Heights. Air cover over mobile launchers. If he doesnt give up with the show, he explodes into sauce.
Turkey would be an excellent launch point - also we could buy Greece - rename it NATOstan and turn it into a big runway. Launch some cruise missiles from Med (the Sea not Club)..... ;)
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 16, 2012, 05:56:00 AM
Turkey would be an excellent launch point - also we could buy Greece - rename it NATOstan and turn it into a big runway. Launch some cruise missiles from Med (the Sea not Club)..... ;)
Bingo. Why we could even get the Turks to throw some rocks across the border. And then there is Cyprus. We could set-up lawn chairs on a Cypriot beach and watch.
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QuoteThe Obama administration opened the door slightly Tuesday to international military assistance for Syria's rebels, with officials saying new tactics may have to be explored if President Bashar Assad continues to defy pressure to halt a brutal crackdown on dissenters.
Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/21/obama-administration-opens-door-to-aid-for-syrian-rebels/#ixzz1n3oeJCGG