Ok............. here goes - theres a big, quite heated debate in the comments section of the latest Massive Chalice news release. It would seem whilst the dev team beavered away and covered all the angles, the kickstarter crowd mentioned the absence of a gay marriage possibility. The original news feed on the game is its a CK II-ish dynastic heroes game, TBS game and therefore the bloodline of your heroes is passed through the ages and you build the story that way. The new news is that the devs were quite taken aback that they never thought of that option and are bending to the will of the kickstarter crowd and implementing a gay marriage possibility, with the chance to adopt/foster or simply magic babies into existence been part of the 'gay kingdoms' options........... and it hasnt gone done too well.
As i see it the vast majority of the objections are simply it doesnt/shouldnt belong in a game where blood line and lineage is a corner stone of the development of your empire. There are a few gay members who are upset that this is homophobia and why shouldnt they be represented in a game.
Im not homophobic, im not anti-gay, and for me its mainly a matter of 'meh', put it in the game if you want (the devs have said itll be an option, switchable on or off) but for some reason i just dont think it belongs in a game
CKII does it without any flashy 'wooo were adopting gay marriage as an option' very simply - you or your wife are gay - you have a negative modifier to the chance of having children, but for some reason Massive Chalice and its devs seem to have made an issue out of it that could have been so much less trouble
Unfortunately ignorance and intolerance are ugly no matter where you see it.
Why stop at gay marriage? What about interracial marriage? What about marriage between cats and dogs? Let's just placate every potential special interest group for the sake of political correctness. Heck, we wouldn't want to offend anybody by standing up for morality.
Let's see... how many gay marriages in 1066 -- 0 -- ..... plus your point above. Let's alter history to bend towards a certain crowds leaning.... yea that makes sense.
PE
Quote from: LongBlade on June 07, 2013, 07:46:13 AM
Unfortunately ignorance and intolerance are ugly no matter where you see it.
and i think thats where it all gets a bit nasty...... the gamers dont want it because it doesnt make any sense for a ancestorial(!?) game, but its too easy for the 'pro gay' people to jump up and shout 'HOMOPHOBE' - theyre not, im not - it just doesnt make sense in the game
i think the trouble i have with it is it seems like an agenda has been pushed onto the dev who now have to write new code - for CKII they didnt discuss it, they didnt want merit for partially adressing it, they didnt ask, it was simply this is how it works, whereas the devs here have been 'bullied' into it by having to recognise they didnt consider it in the first place. Should they have had the courage to say - we didnt discuss it because we're not having it? are they bending to the will of a kickstarter crowd because when youre asking for money you dont want to upset anyone?
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 07, 2013, 07:58:58 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on June 07, 2013, 07:46:13 AM
Unfortunately ignorance and intolerance are ugly no matter where you see it.
and i think thats where it all gets a bit nasty...... the gamers dont want it because it doesnt make any sense for a ancestorial(!?) game, but its too easy for the 'pro gay' people to jump up and shout 'HOMOPHOBE' - theyre not, im not - it just doesnt make sense in the game
i think the trouble i have with it is it seems like an agenda has been pushed onto the dev who now have to write new code - for CKII they didnt discuss it, they didnt want merit for partially adressing it, they didnt ask, it was simply this is how it works, whereas the devs here have been 'bullied' into it by having to recognise they didnt consider it in the first place. Should they have had the courage to say - we didnt discuss it because we're not having it? are they bending to the will of a kickstarter crowd because when youre asking for money you dont want to upset anyone?
+1
The point is... gay marriage = game over (at least in the game).
Or allow gay marriage, then you produce offspring from concubines / courtesans.
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2013, 08:35:06 AM
The point is... gay marriage = game over (at least in the game).
Or allow gay marriage, then you produce offspring from concubines / courtesans.
I'm not sure how the issue was handled at the time (Dr. SoM would be our authority there) but what about a chance of discovery? Let's say the king is gay and doesn't sleep with his queen.
That could set up some very interesting gameplay possibilities.
In a similar fashion to Henry VIII he could blame the woman and go through a cycle of them never creating offspring but always one step ahead of church authorities.
A well-placed courtesan could either with the king's approval or without it impregnate the queen.
The court could turn against him and apply whatever religious fallout that might or might not apply.
Depending on the popularity of the king a new era of acceptance could be ushered in.
It *could* work. Whether the devs are bright enough to work through those possibilities (or have the money/resources to make it happen) is a different issue.
This is the new news, sorry for wall of text. Im with you LB, but those kind of solutions dont seem to have appeased the pro-gay crowd who want fostering and adoption. Another consideration would be if youre going to go down this route and allow a gay marriage, surely (and if thats your thing, thats your thing) then a gay player is simply going to keep clicking - 'make heir gay' or whatever mechanism will be available, and spawn an entire gay nobility with 'borrowed children' - its just a bit....odd
In Double Fine's Massive Chalice, heroes follow one of (videogame) life's most well-worn paths: fight demons, fight demons, fight demons. But these heroes age, and their blood slowly ceases its boiling. They grow old and begin to seek out someone else to warm their weary bones. Also, to birth and raise the most powerful combat babies in all the realm because, you know, demons. Still, it's a rather traditionally minded system at heart, so I had to ask: where do gay couples enter the picture, if at all? Massive Chalice lead Brad Muir was honest: that issue totally slipped his mind... at first. But then Kickstarter backers swooped in to save the day. Hurrah! It is, however, an ending that Muir doesn't think would've been quite so happy had a traditional publisher been in the mix.
To hear Brad Muir tell it, Tim Schafer makes worlds first and systems second. Muir, meanwhile, does it the other way around. He just makes things work, then he worries about the details.
He acknowledges, however, that maybe this time around, he should've worried about the details a teensy bit sooner.
"We did not talk about gay marriage until we launched the Kickstarter,"
"We did not talk about [the possibility of gay marriage] until we launched the Kickstarter," he tells RPS. "We were so focused on pure pragmatic mechanics and how it would work and coupling and all these things that we hadn't [considered it]. That was something I got kinda blindsided by. That was really unfortunate. It kinda makes me feel shitty that it's not something I'd thought of. I think it's sort of hetero privilege that I didn't see it coming."
It's not that Muir doesn't want his game to embrace people of all codes, creeds, and backgrounds, either. He just made a mistake. But then, that's why Double Fine opted to bring the idea of Massive Chalice straight to Kickstarter instead of going with a stretch goal and prototype-oriented "pre-order model": because they know they're not perfect.
"One of the cool things is we have the opportunity to think about it and address it because we brought it to the community," says Muir, suddenly grinning. "We brought it to a broader group of people, and then there were some people who brought it up and wanted to talk about it. There's a raging thread on our forums."
So hurrah, hugs and well-muscled sexytimes for all. This, Muir figures, is the optimal outcome. Everybody wins, and then they all get married. But what would've happened if Double Fine hadn't fulfilled the conditions to unlock real life's good ending? The contagious enthusiasm in Muir's voice wilts a bit as he explains:
"If we had gone with a publisher on this, I really think [it wouldn't have ended well]. Because you sign the deal, you go underground, you start working on the game, you don't talk to the community or anybody, and you get so focused on all these other aspects of the game. Just making it work – and all the tactical combat and mechanical things. We might just overlook something like same-sex coupling all the way until we announce the game. And then people say, 'Hey, what about gay marriage?' And we're like, 'Fuck,' because we've already worked on it for more than a year."
"If somebody did think about it during that whole thing, they would've probably just killed it because it is such a controversial issue. They'd probably not want to have it associated with the game at all. And then they'd give me a PR company line that I'd have to tell in every interview, and it'd be super, super shitty. And then any gay gamers who are coming to the game and playing it and wanting to see themselves represented would just be really disappointed."
Either way, no bueno. Fortunately, Double Fine was able to reconsider their systems ages before ever implementing them, and the resulting discussion's given rise to some rather interesting ideas.
"We've been talking about ways to actually incorporate gay marriage," Muir continues. "One of the suggestions was to allow couples – male/female or otherwise - to contribute to the good of the realm via means other than childbirth. So couples could raise children or research technology. That's one interesting way to handle it. And then if you couple it with the ability to foster children, I think that's a way you could have same-sex couples in the game. And it's optional. People can choose to engage it or not."
"The other option is to be less explicit about it. Maybe these aren't marriages. Maybe you're just retiring two heroes in the same keep. Because I really like it when more procedural, systemic games allow the player to kind of use their imagination a little more to fill in the gaps of what's actually happening."
Ultimately, though, Muir is keen to point out that Massive Chalice still has a long way to go. Someday, the chalice will be massive indeed, but at this point it's not even on level with Chip from Beauty and the Beast. But he's aware now. His eyes and ears are open. And while his absolute foremost goal is to make the best, most enjoyable game possible, he also wants everyone to come along for the ride.
"I don't know where we're gonna land on it," he admits, "but I will say that I want the game to be inclusive. I don't think that hurts anyone. If you as a gamer feel like you're more represented in this thing, that's only gonna deepen your personal story. I really like emergent story stuff, and I think that only stands to improve emotional connections to these heroes. That's only gonna be a good thing."
Check back soon for the full interview, in which we discuss plans for everything from ground-level combat to Civilization-style multi-generational mechanics, emergent game systems, whether or not Double Fine's truly done with publishers, the potential dishonesty of rooting a Kickstarter in ideas instead of confirmed features, Muir's frightening inability to stop almost killing himself, and ska music.
I think not wanting gay characters forced on us in our games doesn't make one ignorant or intolerant. I play games to get away from all the big-mouthed, radical crusaders of whatever type and won't buy or play any game that requires me to pass a polictically correct test of any kind. I supposed the only fair solution is to have 2 versions of the game, a strait and a gay version. Let me know how well the gay version sells.
... sigh ... yet another group screaming tolerance, bullying their position into the forefront and then not "tolerating" the opposing viewpoint. Like Sir Slash said I go to games to escape the real world.
Quote from: LongBlade on June 07, 2013, 08:45:05 AM
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2013, 08:35:06 AM
The point is... gay marriage = game over (at least in the game).
Or allow gay marriage, then you produce offspring from concubines / courtesans.
I'm not sure how the issue was handled at the time (Dr. SoM would be our authority there) but what about a chance of discovery? Let's say the king is gay and doesn't sleep with his queen.
There are several suspected gay relationships in the middle ages. Many thought that Edward II was homosexual and one of the French kings, I can't remember which, was hinted at having an interest in another crusader. But Edward II had several children, so that was an expectation that needed to be fulfilled. Today we tend to think about sexuality as a binary - gay/straight - but historically that has not been the case. It is quite common to see lots of "amorous" (and that should not be always thought of as sexual) relationships between men, particularly is heavily militaristic and honor-based societies, who also still had sexual relations with women (Sparta is a great example, you had male relationships and female wives). You have to also remember than most princes and kings did not choose their wives, so they may have felt more affection toward their companions than to this (possibly ugly or unattractive) stranger they were saddled with (Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine are a good example of this issue). The ides of the "ward" or the "protege" pops up a lot in the middle ages (and it would not scandalize any medieval person to see two men who were very close).
Now gay marriage was right out, obviously. And if you were caught in a sexual relationship with the same sex in the Middle Ages, that was extremely problematic (as in, possibility of getting executed problematic). The more powerful you are, the better chance you have to "brush it under a rug," but lower-class people were burned at the stake or tortured. Even the most powerful were not immune - remember that the Templars were, in part, brought down under charges of "sodomy."
The problems I see with this game are that a dynastic sim is going to have to get strange to accommodate this. What, are you going to have some wizard make a spell to allow men to have children together? Also, the notion of "marriage" in the middle ages is way different than today - arranged marriages, concubines, witnesses, etc. all of that makes applying modern ideas difficult.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2013, 07:47:34 AM
Why stop at gay marriage? What about interracial marriage? What about marriage between cats and dogs? Let's just placate every potential special interest group for the sake of political correctness. Heck, we wouldn't want to offend anybody by standing up for morality.
This is, IMHO, a poor line of argument. Homosexual marriages do not compare to man-animal sexual relations - one is two, consenting, adult humans and the other is between a human and a non-consenting (by legal and philosophical definitions, animals cannot consent), non-sentient, animal. Slippery slope arguments are almost always fallacious and incorrect, because we CAN and DO draw a line (we are rational beings). Besides, whose "morality" are we standing up for here? The Judeo-Christian one, which looks to a book that says it is absolutely acceptable to have slaves, beat your wive/s, have multiple wives, and have concubines? Not everyone agrees with that.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 07, 2013, 09:21:10 AM
I think not wanting gay characters forced on us in our games doesn't make one ignorant or intolerant. I play games to get away from all the big-mouthed, radical crusaders of whatever type and won't buy or play any game that requires me to pass a polictically correct test of any kind. I supposed the only fair solution is to have 2 versions of the game, a strait and a gay version. Let me know how well the gay version sells.
I don't think you HAVE to be gay in the game. So if you don't want to do it, don't do it. Just like in Mass Effect or similar games, you only go down that path if you choose to do so. FWIW, Crusader Kings did, in fact, force you to deal with homosexual characters. But that was part of the challenge.
But this, in Massive Chalice, seems like a needless design distraction and does not fit well with the game's core principles.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 07, 2013, 10:30:57 AM
FWIW, Crusader Kings did, in fact, force you to deal with homosexual characters. But that was part of the challenge.
but very niftily just let it happen without sounding the trumpets of post modernism and pro gay banner waving
The devs of chalice are going to have to change elements of their core game to accommodate this, and i think thats what annoys me - id just rather see a button that says 'make king gay?' than have to have a debate about it, and i wish in todays world it would be OK for them to say 'no, were not doing it'
and there maybe a few, but what happens to the genuine homophobes that get in touch after pledging and now demand their money back?
Actually, CK made it an undesirable trait, which likely ruffled a few feathers. So far, I don't recall seeing homosexuality in CKII, but I might just not have noticed it under all the millions of modifiers they have.
I have been considering how Divinity: Dragon Commander is going to handle gay marriage. The idea of that game (coming next month by Larian studios) is that you are a Dragon lord who has to rule his nation, made up of several races - Undead, Dwarves, Gnomes, Lizardmen, and Elves. They bring forward to you propositions that you have to deal with - the Elves, being the natural liberals, bring forward a "same-sex" union proposition. You have to decide what to do, allowing it will irritate the Conservative and Religious Undead, disallowing it will irritate the Elves and the libertarian Lizardmen.
But when it comes to the in-game marriage, the player character can only be male and can only marry princesses from each race. No other choice. Did that irritate women wanting to play a female role and marry princes? Probably. Did that irritate people wanting same-sex marriage? Who knows. The game HAS homosexual unions in it as an issue, but does not allow the player to take it. That is OK, IMHO, because - to do so- would require a massive mechanics and storyline change.
In Mass Effect and other games, gay pairings was just a way to set who you wanted in the "sexy-time" cut scene. Fine. But for a dynasty building sim? Hard to justify.
Still, it won't be an issue for a majority of players who don't take that option.
Im pro-gay marriage.
Could give a rats ass whether it is introduced into a game or not. Unless its relevant to the storyline or time period, who cares.
If I am playing say a game with Monsters, and the game doesn't have The Creature from the Black Lagoon, but they do have the Mummy, should I be pissed?
SOAP BOX:
Im sick of minorities of every type thinking that there should be equal representation of themselves when it comes to EVERYTHING. You watch TV, you would think half of America is gay (actually 4%), 25% black (12.6%), 25% Asian (4.8%) 25% Hispanic (16.4%) and 25% White (63.7%).
Sort of like Spike Lees criticism of the movie Flags of our Fathers. There were no blacks in it he complains. Should Eastwood have added a scene on the beach just to show the very small contingent of blacks unloading munitions? Wait, what about the Korean laborers that built the defenses on Iwo Jima, they should have their own scene as well. Its just ridiculous what happens when political correctness trumps common sense.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 07, 2013, 09:21:10 AM
I think not wanting gay characters forced on us in our games doesn't make one ignorant or intolerant.
I hope you didn't misunderstand me - I mean ignorance and intolerance on the part of the gay community overreacting to the omission of gay marriage in a medieval historical relationship sim.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 07, 2013, 11:10:00 AM
Actually, CK made it an undesirable trait, which likely ruffled a few feathers. So far, I don't recall seeing homosexuality in CKII, but I might just not have noticed it under all the millions of modifiers they have.
ive had a lesbian queen or two - not in the biblical sense i hasten to add
and +1 to bboyer
CK2 has the Homosexual trait, it gives a relation penalty IIRC, at least for males. Hell, you even have an event chain for having two homosexual wifes as a muslim. ;D
This game is a fantasy one right? So I don't care what they are putting into it. I don't like if they get to waste time on something they didn't want to deal with, but if it actually gets them more sales if they do it, more power to them.
Apologies Longblade for taking your intent wrongly. And love your picture of the Chinese patriot facing-off the tank.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 07, 2013, 10:30:57 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2013, 07:47:34 AM
Why stop at gay marriage? What about interracial marriage? What about marriage between cats and dogs? Let's just placate every potential special interest group for the sake of political correctness. Heck, we wouldn't want to offend anybody by standing up for morality.
This is, IMHO, a poor line of argument. Homosexual marriages do not compare to man-animal sexual relations - one is two, consenting, adult humans and the other is between a human and a non-consenting (by legal and philosophical definitions, animals cannot consent), non-sentient, animal. Slippery slope arguments are almost always fallacious and incorrect, because we CAN and DO draw a line (we are rational beings). Besides, whose "morality" are we standing up for here? The Judeo-Christian one, which looks to a book that says it is absolutely acceptable to have slaves, beat your wive/s, have multiple wives, and have concubines? Not everyone agrees with that.
I agree with this 100%. Very well said.
So those who support gay marriage have the right to impose their morality on others? Huh. Who knew.
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 12:40:14 PM
So those who support gay marriage have the right to impose their morality on others? Huh. Who knew.
No more than religious people have the right to impose their morality. I think the sword cuts both ways.
But again, I don't think Double Fine wants to force you to have gay characters, just give you the option. If you don't want to do it, think it is "amoral" or what have you, don't click the "Marry a Dude" button. And I sincerely hope that it IS a "Marry a Dude" button. Knowing Tim Schafer, it will be something like that.
As I said, though, I don't know how they can organically work that into a dynastic sim. Seems like a waste of time.
However one is more right than the other when it comes to devotees of modern political correctness.
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 12:50:28 PM
However one is more right than the other when it comes to devotees of modern political correctness.
Bingo ...
Well in the end to the Vikings you are all equally dead.... now your gold if you don't mind.
PE
Whats the freaking fuss? Would I in a RPG give a rat's ass if one of the options for my character was gay??? Come on? Really?!! You are getting all pissy about an option. Which in game terms means its not compulsory to click it ... its a choice a player would make.
I think this arguement was poorly framed to begin with... MMORPGs have had its share of WTF?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fskyejuice.com%2Fjunk%2Fwow%2Ftauren-bear.jpg&hash=ca5be339ea27fa9520be5395f21e55f0f44b018b)
So has FPS' that have moves in it that feign teabagging for that matter
As it is a fantasy game, rather than a historical simulation I don't really see any problem with allowing gay or any other type of marriage.
you misunderstand - its not that its there, will be there, might be there - its that it was never going to be until it was brought to the devs attention that his game wasnt representing a certain group of players and now he feels he has to
Quote from: Wolfe1759 on June 07, 2013, 01:26:11 PM
As it is a fantasy game, rather than a historical simulation I don't really see any problem with allowing gay or any other type of marriage.
even one that the dev describes as a bloodline-hand me down-ancestoral game?
*shrug* maybe he just never thought of it until it was pointed out to him
Quote from: Windigo on June 07, 2013, 01:41:31 PM
*shrug* maybe he just never thought of it until it was pointed out to him
Or maybe he was afraid of the backlash of political correctness to demonize his project. *shrug* What does it matter? It's not like any of us have any true sense of freedoms of thought or speech anymore.
I haven't had an original thought in my head since about 2005 when I was trying to get laid after Ex #1 got kicked to the curb
Quote from: Windigo on June 07, 2013, 02:00:48 PM
I haven't had an original thought in my head since about 2005 when I was trying to get laid after Ex #1 got kicked to the curb
I had an original thought once too, but then I realized I'd only plagiarized a previous thought that I'd had.
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 02:03:00 PM
Quote from: Windigo on June 07, 2013, 02:00:48 PM
I haven't had an original thought in my head since about 2005 when I was trying to get laid after Ex #1 got kicked to the curb
I had an original thought once too, but then I realized I'd only plagiarized a previous thought that I'd had.
as long as you quote the source you're ok
http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/mirror-girls-48.jpg?w=500&h=566 (http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/mirror-girls-48.jpg?w=500&h=566)*
*don't look if you haven't clicked the hetero option in your Player Sheet
speaking of which, now that I got my kickass system I need to crank up AD&D again
Well I did consider suing myself over intellectual rights, but then I realized I didn't have the financial ware withall to settle any court rulings with myself.
I forgot.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phuket.ag%2FAmphibian%2Fbikini-girl.jpg&hash=f21734d8dbfee843cf630b07803b6c1b0166a730)
That's one lucky bathing suit.
3 pages to bewbs - youre slipping fellas
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 01:50:14 PM
Quote from: Windigo on June 07, 2013, 01:41:31 PM
*shrug* maybe he just never thought of it until it was pointed out to him
Or maybe he was afraid of the backlash of political correctness to demonize his project. *shrug* What does it matter? It's not like any of us have any true sense of freedoms of thought or speech anymore.
That's why we need the freedom to have gay marriage in PC games. To simulate the freedom none of us have in real life. ;)
Like Windi said, it's an option. For my experience, the gay option in Mass Effect never existed, because I never took it. I always worry about people who moan about the option being there with no compulsion to take it. Are they worried they won't have any self control and choose the gay option? Are they worried they might accidentally click the "come over here you man meat hunk" dialog choice?
No that's why we need to have the freedom to chose whether or not to have any system a designer wants to put into or left out of a game without fear of a political correct backlash of accusations of bigotry or in this case homophobia. ;)
Dead Horse : We've all come to beat it
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.necro-equine-sadism.com%2Fbeating-a-dead-horse.jpg&hash=b5896baac87ffc8b0396f7e10e2f3f1e102585b5)
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 02:59:53 PM
No that's why we need to have the freedom to chose whether or not to have any system a designer wants to put into or left out of a game without fear of a political correct backlash of accusations of bigotry or in this case homophobia. ;)
i agree here
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 02:13:37 PM
I forgot.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phuket.ag%2FAmphibian%2Fbikini-girl.jpg&hash=f21734d8dbfee843cf630b07803b6c1b0166a730)
ridem' cowgirl! yeehaw
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 02:59:53 PM
No that's why we need to have the freedom to chose whether or not to have any system a designer wants to put into or left out of a game without fear of a political correct backlash of accusations of bigotry or in this case homophobia. ;)
you're gonna make me actually read that damn article aren't you .... before I do though answer me this, is it possible that they were just lobbying for the option in a respectfull manner and it just got derailed by crazies?
... kinda like every thread in grogs :D
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.policymic.com%2Fsite%2Farticles%2F10956%2Fphoto.jpg&hash=93b3ed1fc853eb190adc95eb28e1463caa07523d)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 07, 2013, 07:47:34 AM
Why stop at gay marriage? What about interracial marriage? What about marriage between cats and dogs? Let's just placate every potential special interest group for the sake of political correctness. Heck, we wouldn't want to offend anybody by standing up for morality.
True.
Perhaps someone from NAMBLA or with bestiality tendencies should also go complain.
I'm not lumping the gay people in with such, but using such an example to point out that at some point it becomes a game marred by current socio-political input and NOT a fantasy game that lets us escape from the now. ::) All because a developer feels
forced to do work they otherwise wouldn't have done.. due to political correctness.
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 07, 2013, 02:24:04 PM
3 pages to bewbs - youre slipping fellas
It was worth the wait though :)
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 07, 2013, 12:14:59 PM
Apologies Longblade for taking your intent wrongly. And love your picture of the Chinese patriot facing-off the tank.
No offense taken. The written word can be difficult to discern at times :)
Quote from: bboyer66 on June 07, 2013, 11:11:49 AM
Im pro-gay marriage.
Could give a rats ass whether it is introduced into a game or not. Unless its relevant to the storyline or time period, who cares.
If I am playing say a game with Monsters, and the game doesn't have The Creature from the Black Lagoon, but they do have the Mummy, should I be pissed?
SOAP BOX:
Im sick of minorities of every type thinking that there should be equal representation of themselves when it comes to EVERYTHING. You watch TV, you would think half of America is gay (actually 4%), 25% black (12.6%), 25% Asian (4.8%) 25% Hispanic (16.4%) and 25% White (63.7%).
Sort of like Spike Lees criticism of the movie Flags of our Fathers. There were no blacks in it he complains. Should Eastwood have added a scene on the beach just to show the very small contingent of blacks unloading munitions? Wait, what about the Korean laborers that built the defenses on Iwo Jima, they should have their own scene as well. Its just ridiculous what happens when political correctness trumps common sense.
Thanks, bboyer. Now I don't need to really say anything beyond +1. :)
<looks up from gaming the First Mithradatic War, frowns in a puzzled fashion>
Well, I guess the Massive Electrum Codpiece discussed last week in reference to this game may turn out to be of greater interest to some players than initially anticipated.
</returns to pillaging Asia Minor>
Grogheads can be very prescient at times.
Quote from: Bison on June 07, 2013, 02:59:53 PM
No that's why we need to have the freedom to chose whether or not to have any system a designer wants to put into or left out of a game without fear of a political correct backlash of accusations of bigotry or in this case homophobia. ;)
Given Tim Schafer's personality and attitude, I'm fairly certain he and Brad Muir did not get pressured into including gay marriage. In fact, it seems like Brad and Tim brought it to the community to discuss it, not the other way around.
Quote"One of the cool things is we have the opportunity to think about it and address it because we brought it to the community," Muir continued. "We brought it to a broader group of people, and then there were some people who brought it up and wanted to talk about it. There's a raging thread on our forums."
Muir previously expressed a desire to have an equality between sexes in this video discussing Massive Chalice's design. "We wanted to make [gameplay] sex-agnostic," Muir said. "[Both sexes are] both going to be super-badass on the battlefield, killing demons together."
Muir notes that same-sex gameplay aspects may have never been considered, had Double Fine opted for traditional publisher-driven development. "We might just overlook something like same-sex coupling all the way until we announce the game." he told RPS. "If somebody did think about it during that whole thing, they would've probably just killed it because it is such a controversial issue. They'd probably not want to have it associated with the game at all."
What he was saying is that, had they gone with a traditional publisher, they would not have brought it up. But since they decided to self-publish, they discussed the idea with the "publishers," i.e. the fans.
And remember, the majority of games out there absolutely exercise their right not to have gay marriage or any gay aspects. Unless there is a special mode to Call of Duty or a secret gay relationship in Metal Gear Solid, I did not hear about. ;D
If the creators had wanted to add it in as an option, then it doesn't bother me.
I was under the impression that a very small amount of customers had pressured them into doing it, however, with accusatory threats. Are you saying that's not the case?
Quote from: Nefaro on June 08, 2013, 08:40:24 PM
If the creators had wanted to add it in as an option, then it doesn't bother me.
I was under the impression that a very small amount of customers had pressured them into doing it, however, with accusatory threats. Are you saying that's not the case?
I'm not saying that. Brad Muir, the developer, is the one saying that in the quote. ;)
If you want to read exactly how this all went down, Rock, Paper, Shotgun had an interview with Muir. In no way does this sound like a beleaguered developer who was forced to bow to a small special interest group against his will.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/06/06/how-kickstarter-got-gay-marriage-into-massive-chalice/
It is fairly clear that, although they did not initially sell this option, because they are self-publishing they decided to put it in (after getting fan feedback).
Well at least the greatest issue facing the future of humanity is getting some love....
Quote from: Bison on June 08, 2013, 11:59:48 PM
Well at least the greatest issue facing the future of humanity is getting some love....
::)
It's more people getting bent out of shape over nothing than any issue "getting love." This thread had all sorts of conspiracy theories about pressure groups and motives for the option in the game. Always go back to the source to get the answer.
It's too bad that the straight white male is so under-represented in gaming. And on the world political, social, and economic stage. :P
There exists no pressure from political correctness at all. ::)
Nor do I suffer from white guilt just for the record.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 08, 2013, 10:25:44 PM
they decided to put it in (after getting fan feedback).
and thats precisely the reason for the discomfort - fan feeback suggested he put it in, not him or his design team - now admittedly the reaction may have been overblown, but it wasnt a concept idea and in todays day and age is it in now because it was too controversial to say no - i get the feeling thats the reason for the disquiet
Bison, read the interview before making baseless assumptions. Muir does not seem the type to be opposed to the addition and succumbing to political correct pressure. This looks like something in line with his artistic and personal values.
Geek, it is fairly clear that he both wanted to do it and the dev team was the ones who fielded it to the fans for "focus-testing." Muir seems quite happy with the addition, lauding the KS route for allowing the the creative freedom to do it (when a publisher would have rejected outright).
I don't follow the "it is too controversial to say no" argument. Most games do not have a gay option and many dev teams do not broach it because of the controversy that it causes to add it (see the reaction to Mass Effect and Dragon Age). If there is a pressure to add in gay characters, then it is not effecting much of gaming media.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 09, 2013, 02:01:15 AM
[It's too bad that the straight white male is so under-represented in gaming. And on the world political, social, and economic stage. :P
So this isn't a broad and baseless assumption? :o
im either stupid or i dont understand some people's role in this - i cant find it anywhere where it states DF had the idea first before the KS crowd suggested it. If i go to DF's forums the original post before all this started is there on the forum and thats from a forum user (unless hes also a developer) but the way hes referred to doesnt seem that way - TBH that doesnt matter
i think its slighty naive to suggest its not controversial for him to slap down the gay marriage request
but im easy, storm in a teacup, if the game turns out to be great ill buy it
What we need are more certifiably insane characters like Minsc in Balders Gate or the Malkovians in Vampire: Bloodlines. Nothing can liven up an RPG like bug nuts insanity.
Quote from: Bison on June 09, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 09, 2013, 02:01:15 AM
[It's too bad that the straight white male is so under-represented in gaming. And on the world political, social, and economic stage. :P
So this isn't a broad and baseless assumption? :o
No. Very few games don't have a white, straight, male character in them. In fact, pointedly leaving out a white, straight, male character (almost always the lead) would certainly draw ire. That is despite the fact that the majority of the world's population is not Caucasian and only half of it is male.
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 09, 2013, 09:54:46 AM
i think its slighty naive to suggest its not controversial for him to slap down the gay marriage request
I disagree. Developers do it all the time. As I said, a majority of games out there don't have a gay option. And those that did universally drew fire from various media outlets.
I'm a little shocked at these two statements. Is it really a question that white, straight, males are certainly the best represented in media? The suggestion that white, straight, males are somehow getting prejudiced treatment by game developers does not seem to add up.
But, to answer your question, the interview makes it sound like Muir was focused on mechanics over the game world, someone (it is not specific as to if it was internal or from KS fans) broached the topic of gay relationships. In response, Double Fine took it to a larger audience (i.e. focus tested the idea) and decided to include it. The developers were under no obligation to field test the idea to the forum or KS group. Brad is fairly clear about his opinion on the matter too.
This seems to be a dead end conversation. My thought is, if the addition of gay characters offends one's sensibilities, then vote with your wallet. But the KS development cycle means that the people who requested the addition were already owners (or investors), so the money is already there.
Quote from: Bison on June 09, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 09, 2013, 02:01:15 AM
[It's too bad that the straight white male is so under-represented in gaming. And on the world political, social, and economic stage. :P
So this isn't a broad and baseless assumption? :o
LOL!
Quote from: Bison on June 09, 2013, 02:57:32 AM
There exists no pressure from political correctness at all. ::)
Nor do I suffer from white guilt just for the record.
is that when you eat too much processed bread?
Quote from: airboy on June 09, 2013, 10:10:46 AM
What we need are more certifiably insane characters like Minsc in Balders Gate or the Malkovians in Vampire: Bloodlines. Nothing can liven up an RPG like bug nuts insanity.
Heh. You make a good point.
Who calls Minsc's name? He still has shoes for butt-kicking.
I would like to have Minsc's trademark audio-tag line about Boo. I recall looking for the file in the game once but not finding it. Anybody have it? What was it...."Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes" or something like that. Probable my all-time favorite character.
Quote from: solops on June 10, 2013, 10:11:27 AM
I would like to have Minsc's trademark audio-tag line about Boo. I recall looking for the file in the game once but not finding it. Anybody have it? What was it...."Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes" or something like that. Probable my all-time favorite character.
Baldur's Gate has been released in an enhanced edition and works on modern OSs. You should be able to buy the game and get the audio clip that way.
In BG 2 he could, Hide In The Dark and had an even funnier tag line for that event but I can't remember it now. It made me laugh every time I heard it.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 10, 2013, 10:37:41 AM
In BG 2 he could, Hide In The Dark and had an even funnier tag line for that event but I can't remember it now. It made me laugh every time I heard it.
Youtube is the font of all knowledge:
A few random responses here:
- Had the designer of this game said, "This isn't really an angle we feel like we have the design or development resources to tackle in a game like this", he'd have had my full fledged support. Deciding to do or not to do something like this based strictly on game-design criteria is entirely legit.
- Discrimination in any format sucks. But, when that discrimination really starts to affect your life chances (negatively affecting things like employment, relationships with friends and family, whom you can marry, etc.), it adds a whole new layer of hurt. That layer of hurt can lead one to imagine discrimination where none is intended or even where none exists.
- Do any of the folks decrying political correctness in this thread actually know that happened here? Or are they just building a straw man scenario of what happened, feeding that with slippery slope fears, and jumping to conclusions about how this must have played out? After 5 pages, the only specifics I've read are a fairly mellow and non-controversial statement by the lead designer. I'm not saying that the forces of political correctness don't overreact a lot. I'm just suggesting that it's not clear we know that's what happened here, do we?
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on June 10, 2013, 08:43:14 PM
Do any of the folks decrying political correctness in this thread actually know that happened here? Or are they just building a straw man scenario of what happened, feeding that with slippery slope fears, and jumping to conclusions about how this must have played out? After 5 pages, the only specifics I've read are a fairly mellow and non-controversial statement by the lead designer. I'm not saying that the forces of political correctness don't overreact a lot. I'm just suggesting that it's not clear we know that's what happened here, do we?
Something I think we need to consider is this - if people say to Brad Muir that "You don't have to do it! Don't let the forces of Political Correctness guilt you into doing this!" - his answer may be that he doesn't need protecting and that he does, indeed, want to do this. Which means it is the anti-PC lobby that is actually trying to force his opinion and not the other way around.
Sort of like "We want you to be as free as possible as long as you are doing something we like." ;)
I had a pretty rotten day. Then I end it with a youtube of Minsc quotes.
I feel better now.
Quote from: airboy on June 10, 2013, 10:46:47 PM
I had a pretty rotten day. Then I end it with a youtube of Minsc quotes.
I feel better now.
Glad to be of service!
Squeaky wheel gets the kick! ;D