I'm not sure I have much to say other than to post the Kickstarter link:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/cthulhu-wars
Seriously, a lighter, area-control, dudes-on-a-map, wargame where you fight as the monster of the Cthulhu mythos? Add-in that each faction includes 64 high quality, high detail miniatures at 40-180mm scale (yes, the 180mm Cthulhu miniatures can hardly have that name applied, more like megatures)! This is probably the best thing I have ever seen! Yes, it is pricey... but MINIATURES!
Good grief. Yeah, that's a bit rich for me at the moment...especially with all those expansions that cost another arm and a leg. I also find it a bit much to believe that any store is going to stock this post-Kickstarter with an MSRP of $169.
The minis look great, but is the game even any good. Or is this just the next 'HOLY CRAP, COOL PLASTIC!' hit. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't get it.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on June 11, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Good grief. Yeah, that's a bit rich for me at the moment...especially with all those expansions that cost another arm and a leg. I also find it a bit much to believe that any store is going to stock this post-Kickstarter with an MSRP of $169.
The minis look great, but is the game even any good. Or is this just the next 'HOLY CRAP, COOL PLASTIC!' hit. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't get it.
Prototype reviews of the game have been positive. I do think that there is a bit of a OMG MINIS effect here, but the discussion of gameplay makes it look like a game similar to Chaos in the Old World mixed with some light wargaming. I do like the asymmetric factions, with each of them playing completely different strategies. IIRC, the designer, Sandy Peterson, has a decent pedigree. I believe he helped design the original Arkham Horror with Richard Launius, not to mention the Call of Cthulhu RPG done by Chaosium.
The pernicious thing about Kickstarter is that you get "exclusives" from the stretch goals that will likely be unavailable for none supporters (at least initially). So there are at least 3-4 unlocked Old Ones so far (including Cthugha and Chaugnar Faugn, one of my favorites), but only for stretch goal supporters.
Sounds awesome. If they throw in cowboys and zombies, it's a first day buy for me 8)
I wonder how many buyers are hoping this sees the same insane second hand market as Zombicide did? How many of these are just being bought to be re-sold? And how long until that 'guaranteed' second hand market dries up, enabling us to laugh at people who drop $150+ on something they don't even want? ;D the game does sound kind of interesting, but I'm not throwing down that sort of coin on 'kind of interesting', especially when I already own and enjoy Chaos in the Old World. And while Sandy Peterson has had a ton of success with the CoC RPG system, that doesn't mean he's necessarily a slam dunk for designing a board game.
Here's the thing that I find fascinating about expensive Kickstarters like this. Gamers as a group will bitch and whine about wanting cheaper shipping options when they make big orders, often complaining about $10. Gamers will buy from one place over another to save a grand total of $3.75 in purchase price. Gamers will complain about publishers who enforce higher price points at online stores.
And then those same gamers will drop $150+ (and $30+ in shipping on top of that) on something without often having access to the rules for the damn thing. Often because "Oh my God, all the extra stuff I can't buy later!"...for a game they haven't played and a game they cannot be certain they will even like. It's kind of madness, really.
I'm not judging someone for wanting to throw down their money on a purchase...people can buy whatever they want to. Hell, I would still love to toss down the same kind of money I would spend on this on acquiring a copy of Space Hulk Third Edition or the 15(?) year old D&D Adventure Game with an expansion or two. Why the difference? For me, it's because I've played both. I know what I'm getting for that money. I guess this is why I'm not likely to ever dive big in to Kickstarter...I'm tired of spending money on "maybe it's cool". I did that already when I first started getting in to board games. ;D
based on what's currently been hit for the stretch goals, the value here is getting better and better. I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.
Hoo boy that's tempting.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 12, 2013, 06:27:59 AM
I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.
Same here, but it does look real cool.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 12, 2013, 06:27:59 AM
based on what's currently been hit for the stretch goals, the value here is getting better and better. I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.
Yeah, this is actually why I don't feel so bad. Arctic, the rules are posted, so the game looks fairly fun and simple with plenty there to love. Not at all cumbersome, IMHO. I'm looking forward to see what the spellbooks will be. At this point, I am excited about all the extras that I will be getting, even if I end up spending more in the long-run than just buying the base game at an online retailer.
Perhaps some backers are trying to tie into the resale business. I can't say that I blame them and if I had the extra capital I might have Kickstartered two copies just for that reason. But I think some people got burned by the Zombiecide resell scheme, as the game dropped to a low ~$40-50 on Coolstuffinc not only a few months after release (they had WAY too much inventory because they thought it would be the next big thing). I do think a lot of minis fans are banking on this one for the versatility of the figures.
If you want to profit in the resale market, you should look at Plaid Hat Games. Mice and Mystics was a huge hit and continues to sell out constantly even after a few reprints. I think you could make an excellent business going to conventions, gambling on the "next big deal," buying several copies and selling them on eBay or BGG. I would LOVE to do that, because - despite my academic leanings, I am a retailer/merchant at heart (which is probably why I study retailer/merchants for a living).
But we are going to hear from the horses mouth soon - I just got a chance to interview Sandy Peterson (over the magic of the internet) and we will be posting that interview ASAP!
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 14, 2013, 10:11:37 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 12, 2013, 06:27:59 AM
based on what's currently been hit for the stretch goals, the value here is getting better and better. I just don't really care for the Cthulhu stuff, or I'd be much more interested.
Yeah, this is actually why I don't feel so bad. Arctic, the rules are posted, so the game looks fairly fun and simple with plenty there to love. Not at all cumbersome, IMHO. I'm looking forward to see what the spellbooks will be. At this point, I am excited about all the extras that I will be getting, even if I end up spending more in the long-run than just buying the base game at an online retailer.
Perhaps some backers are trying to tie into the resale business. I can't say that I blame them and if I had the extra capital I might have Kickstartered two copies just for that reason. But I think some people got burned by the Zombiecide resell scheme, as the game dropped to a low ~$40-50 on Coolstuffinc not only a few months after release (they had WAY too much inventory because they thought it would be the next big thing). I do think a lot of minis fans are banking on this one for the versatility of the figures.
If you want to profit in the resale market, you should look at Plaid Hat Games. Mice and Mystics was a huge hit and continues to sell out constantly even after a few reprints. I think you could make an excellent business going to conventions, gambling on the "next big deal," buying several copies and selling them on eBay or BGG. I would LOVE to do that, because - despite my academic leanings, I am a retailer/merchant at heart (which is probably why I study retailer/merchants for a living).
But we are going to hear from the horses mouth soon - I just got a chance to interview Sandy Peterson (over the magic of the internet) and we will be posting that interview ASAP!
Yeah, I CAN understand people being in to this. It looks neat as Hell, the pedigree is there, I get it. And the extras are impressive. I also didn't realize that the rules were up, so that's obviously a big plus for it compared to a lot of other Kickstarter offerings. So I'm backing away from blasting this, because it does make some sense (though I still find it highly unlikely the post-Kickstarter market is going to be at all friendly to an MSRP of $169).
And I can especially appreciate what Cthulhu Wars is offering in comparison to this : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1016374822/dark-darker-darkest?ref=live
THAT is inexplicable to me. Queen is hardly some new publisher with no resources...they're one of the biggest board game publishers in existence. So why are they using Kickstarter? I also cannot for the life of me figure out how in the Hell that game, with that list of components, comes in at $80 (that price doesn't get you any stretch goals. You need to drop $110 for that). That looks like a pretty bog standard components list for any other game that costs half of that. And I know that David Ausloos has been working on this for years, but come on...the only game the guy has actually created and developed from the ground up is Panic Station, and that could charitably be described as a hot mess. Bad rules and game mechanics that simply don't stand up to a single second of thought...if the way your game works doesn't make any sense beyond "Well, this was made that way to make it gamey", your game frankly sucks.
And yet, people are diving all over this...yet another zombie game that's grossly overpriced and designed by a guy lacking any kind of impressive credentials. Cthulhu Wars is fine...I am man enough to admit I was flat out wrong on that one. But this...this right here is pretty much EVERYTHING I find inexplicably stupid about Kickstarter, and in particular how people will race to throw masses of money in to any old thing.
Sorry for the response delay. I don't think you are "wrong" about the KS value of Cthulhu Wars, just that different people have different value thresholds. I mean, is it worth nearly an iPad to have one boardgame with all the minis, factions, and maps? Probably not, unless you are a rapid Cthulhu-phile who loves boardgames!
I totally ignored, Dark, Darker, Darkest. I was deep into Zombie games, but they are just so ubiquitous now that have lost a lot of interest. Queen's move to using KS is not abnormal for the industry now, unfortunately. While Cthulhu Wars is being made by Sandy's new startup, that seems only one sector of the table top KS use and I've seen big names like Asmodee, Tasty Minstrel, and IELLO using KS recently. In a sense, why should they pay for production costs when they can get the customers to provide the production costs up front? Makes sense, right? But there is something a little odd feeling about it, IMHO, when an established publisher does this. If Fantasy Flight opens up a Kickstarter, I'll be really weirded out.
Of course GMT does use P500, which is sort of like a KS scheme.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 20, 2013, 01:22:40 PM
Sorry for the response delay. I don't think you are "wrong" about the KS value of Cthulhu Wars, just that different people have different value thresholds. I mean, is it worth nearly an iPad to have one boardgame with all the minis, factions, and maps? Probably not, unless you are a rapid Cthulhu-phile who loves boardgames!
I totally ignored, Dark, Darker, Darkest. I was deep into Zombie games, but they are just so ubiquitous now that have lost a lot of interest. Queen's move to using KS is not abnormal for the industry now, unfortunately. While Cthulhu Wars is being made by Sandy's new startup, that seems only one sector of the table top KS use and I've seen big names like Asmodee, Tasty Minstrel, and IELLO using KS recently. In a sense, why should they pay for production costs when they can get the customers to provide the production costs up front? Makes sense, right? But there is something a little odd feeling about it, IMHO, when an established publisher does this. If Fantasy Flight opens up a Kickstarter, I'll be really weirded out.
Of course GMT does use P500, which is sort of like a KS scheme.
I'm going to be curious to see if there starts to be a backlash at some point against companies going to the Kickstarter well time and again. I mean, how many times do Cool Mini or Not need to crowd fund a new game? They've been a massive success at this point, they certainly have enough business equity to get a game made without Kickstarting it, yet they go that route every single time. It seems odd to me that people don't ever seem to start questioning that after multiple near-million dollar runs.
I think that's my biggest hangup with the entire Kickstarter process : nobody asks questions. People just throw down hundreds of dollars on a speculative product without any rules available...yet those same people would never dream of doing the same in a game store without researching the games they're considering for a buy. Why is there that bizarre difference? Particularly when I look at something like Dark, Darker, Darkest and the designer's track record. This isn't something difficult to dig up, and yet people are tossing down $100 on the promise that he'll release the rules at some point. His whole basic argument for not having them up now makes no sense : you've been working on and play testing this game for years...yet you haven't written down a rule set yet? What? But people just accept it and throw down their cash. I don't get it.
Yeah I totally agree. I think there will be a KS reckoning at some point. Something like "Remember the days when we could just buy games in the store, without having to pre-fund their development?" Some companies are already experiencing trouble getting those stretch goals out and accommodating their huge plans with the logistical realities of game production. Even veterans like Steve Jackson Games have hit snags that basically pushed the release of Ogre Deluxe Edition back almost 8 months. Which is why I asked Sandy in the interview if he felt his prospective release date of December was realistic and doable. His answer was a little more equivocal than I would have liked to see, given how excited I am about the KS and how much I plan to back it.
I pretty much expected huge logistical hurdles for Ogre...the damn box is gigantic and weighs 25 freaking pounds. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to custom up shipping boxes to put the actual game boxes in. And getting all of those enormous cartons to post is going to be quite an undertaking at that size/weight as well. I can't even imagine what an organizational nightmare it is to try to get production on all of that stuff lined up and scheduled to arrive at the same time, either.
And seeing the rate at which Cthulhu Wars is selling, I would expect delays with it as well. Especially if a lot of people are loading up orders with extra expansions and the like. The more mixed the orders become, the bigger the nightmare of sorting out who gets what stuff is going to get, and the more extra stuff you need to wait for the arrival of before you can even start organizing that. With them forming a new company, they probably aren't going to be ready for the sheer scope of it. And I don't mean that as any sort of shot against them...almost no new company actually accounts for how much work is going to be involved with that end of the business.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 21, 2013, 11:29:13 PM
Yeah I totally agree. I think there will be a KS reckoning at some point. Something like "Remember the days when we could just buy games in the store, without having to pre-fund their development?" Some companies are already experiencing trouble getting those stretch goals out and accommodating their huge plans with the logistical realities of game production. Even veterans like Steve Jackson Games have hit snags that basically pushed the release of Ogre Deluxe Edition back almost 8 months. Which is why I asked Sandy in the interview if he felt his prospective release date of December was realistic and doable. His answer was a little more equivocal than I would have liked to see, given how excited I am about the KS and how much I plan to back it.
I'd rather have an honest answer than one made by someone who didn't grasp the reality of bringing this together.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on June 22, 2013, 02:05:37 AMalmost no new company actually accounts for how much work is going to be involved with that end of the business.
QFT!
Anyone who thinks forming a game company is just all playing around has no idea.
When you form a game company, you've immediately entered the shipping business, as that's where you'll spend a significant percentage of your time.
Not only the shipping business, the printing business as well (even though you don't actually do the printing, in some cases). And printing is notoriously hard logistically.
I'm going to hope that Sandy has a Chinese plastic manufacturer and printer already lined up. With the sheer size of those minis and the number of the minis, the box will have to be at least the same size as the old Fantasy Flight first edition of Descent, and that was a huge pain to ship. You are right, having all those extra bits and relying solely on the KS survey method is worrisome. I wonder if Sandy has heard of Backerkit, which is an online service that helps manage complicated pledges? Yes, they take a cut, but it seems worth it to me to avoid some of the headache.
I anticipate the December date being a bit overly optimistic. I suspect we won't see this one until at least Summer 2014 (one year of production is not out of the question). I do hope that they can make it by December, I would love to be playing this during the Holiday break.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 25, 2013, 10:57:39 AM
Not only the shipping business, the printing business as well (even though you don't actually do the printing, in some cases). And printing is notoriously hard logistically.
The printing stuff you deal with is primarily shipping stuff to/from the printer, so yeah, you're back in the shipping business
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 25, 2013, 10:57:39 AMthe same size as the old Fantasy Flight first edition of Descent
I think the Tide of Iron box is actually bigger, and RuneWars might be bigger than that one
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 25, 2013, 10:57:39 AMthe same size as the old Fantasy Flight first edition of Descent
I think the Tide of Iron box is actually bigger, and RuneWars might be bigger than that one
[/quote]
I think the coffin boxes were all pretty much uniform. I've had all but Starcraft at one time or another, and they all stacked up pretty nicely.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 25, 2013, 10:57:39 AM
Not only the shipping business, the printing business as well (even though you don't actually do the printing, in some cases). And printing is notoriously hard logistically.
I'm going to hope that Sandy has a Chinese plastic manufacturer and printer already lined up. With the sheer size of those minis and the number of the minis, the box will have to be at least the same size as the old Fantasy Flight first edition of Descent, and that was a huge pain to ship. You are right, having all those extra bits and relying solely on the KS survey method is worrisome. I wonder if Sandy has heard of Backerkit, which is an online service that helps manage complicated pledges? Yes, they take a cut, but it seems worth it to me to avoid some of the headache.
I anticipate the December date being a bit overly optimistic. I suspect we won't see this one until at least Summer 2014 (one year of production is not out of the question). I do hope that they can make it by December, I would love to be playing this during the Holiday break.
I would have to agree. The campaign runs for another 11 days, at which point they can start rolling production. But then they don't have production numbers on the optional bits until later, and a lot of those are pretty substantial. I have no idea how long all of that is going to take to build, but it then gets loaded on a boat which isn't going anywhere until it's loaded completely. It all might...MIGHT...reach North America by December.
That's why I agree with LB that it's good Sandy isn't trying to nail down a specific date. There are just far too many variables.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 25, 2013, 03:46:39 PM
I think the Tide of Iron box is actually bigger, and RuneWars might be bigger than that one
Nope, I used to stack my Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition, Descent, and Runewars boxes on top of one another. They were all the same size. Runewars and Descent now have second edition copies that switched to the FFG square box. Descent underwent a major rules change, Runewars did not. But the Runewars box was so unnecessarily large, as it had too much empty space. I have since switch Descent to a huge tackebox, which holds all of the pieces (although I no longer use the first edition, given that the second edition is much much more fun).
So, figured I would raise this beast from the cold Earth (kinda fitting, really) since the Cthulhu Wars Onslaught 2 Kickstarter is nearing completion...and this time, I'm in. I like the fact that Sandy Petersen and company have owned up to some logistical problems that cropped up last time, they're now experienced in that and production, and everything should run smoother the second time around.
So, if you were like me and questions about the company's experience is what put you off the first time, I think you can be a lot more confident this time around. I hope so...my bank account REALLY hopes so... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/cthulhu-wars-onslaught-two?ref=nav_search
And no, I'm not in for the $700 everything package. There are limits to my madness, or so I'd like to ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Flovecraft%2Fimages%2F9%2F95%2F5b1d071c622d3bb26b6c26a80d80534e.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20140818055502&hash=d392cebdc7933b3ce01608e7338583100f11404b)
I'd been eyeing the original $150 set listed at CSI. But damn.. the price! Being a multi-player "area control" type of game, I don't think it would get much playtime around here with my lack of a gaming group these days. So I can't justify the expense-to-usage ratio. :-\
Still haven't done anything more than break the box shrink wrap on Chaos In The Old World, Rune Wars, and other similar games I own.
Quote from: Nefaro on November 12, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
I'd been eyeing the original $150 set listed at CSI. But damn.. the price! Being a multi-player "area control" type of game, I don't think it would get much playtime around here with my lack of a gaming group these days. So I can't justify the expense-to-usage ratio. :-\
Still haven't done anything more than break the box shrink wrap on Chaos In The Old World, Rune Wars, and other similar games I own.
If you've got that many games still in shrink, then yeah...STOP BUYING GAMES. At least for awhile. ;D
As for me, I actually scored a trade for Cthulhu Wars! So now I can just back the Kickstarter for loads...and loads...of extra stuff. :idiot2: ::)
Quote from: Arctic Blast on November 14, 2015, 02:47:31 AM
If you've got that many games still in shrink, then yeah...STOP BUYING GAMES. At least for awhile. ;D
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vzgXgxkC3rw/UxokeRNYj1I/AAAAAAAACK0/SUFqTffmWEQ/s1600/wizard-behind-curtain1.jpg)
Well.... nearly all mine are out of the shrink. Because I tend to check the components and make sure everything's present, print aligned properly, etc.
But that's as far as many have gone.. breaking the shrink and peaking at the bits. :))
I'm still guilty. ;D
Finally got this played over the weekend. It's fantastic. No sooner had we finished the first game than we were on to a second...and a third.
It's a terrific 'dudes on a map' style game with lots of strategy without massive rules overhead. The overall game is pretty simple. You earn Power based on cultists on the board and controlled gates. Power is the currency that you spend to perform actions. You get Doom based on the number of gates you control, with Doom being the actual score in the game. You can also get Doom by scoring Elder Signs, with those being worth 1-3 points apiece (and you generally keep your numbers secret until the end). Combat involves rolling a mess of D6's depending on the total combat value of the two forces involved. A 4 or 5 is a Pain, which forces a retreat of one opposing unit. A 6 Kills one opposing unit.
Where it gets interesting is the total asymmetry involved. Each of the factions has a unique Great Old One who is summoned differently and at different costs. Each GOO and Faction possesses completely unique special abilities, and each has a number and differing types of monsters totally unique to them. You can only win the game by scoring your 6 spellbooks, and each faction obtains their spellbooks by filling requirements different from what the other factions need to do for theirs. And of course, each faction's spellbooks themselves are totally different overpowered abilities that enhance what they already bring to the table.
Even with all of that asymmetry, within 2 full turns pretty much every one of us had a handle on the basics of what our faction needed to focus on. A couple of friends enjoyed it enough that they're going to toss in some bucks as well (the Pledge Manager doesn't go live for a little while, and you can add to your KS pledge when it does go up). We're going pretty much all in with a few exceptions.
Sadly, we'll have to wait until next September for all of this stuff to show up. When it does, the package we're looking at is estimated at somewhere in the 50 pound range. I have no idea how I'm going to store it all. I may be driven mad. Maybe that's the point.