Like the title says this will not end well.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/11/us-offers-condolences-as-us-service-member-investigated-for-alleged-killing/
Oh my God...
This is terrible news.
Sad times, seen this the other day and thought the resistance just got a massive recruitment boost, and on top of the koran burning incident.
Yeah, I got a sick feeling in my stomach when I read that the other day. Talk about throwing fuel on the fire.
I'd sure like to know what the deal was there. Did this soldier just snap and decide to kill some random Afghans? Did he have an issue with those specific families? Not that his motive probably matters much at this point, but I just want to understand *why*.
Not to excuse the actions but the 'why' will probably be lost in the coming retaliation and politicking between the two countries.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 12, 2012, 07:47:20 AM
Not to excuse the actions but the 'why' will probably be lost in the coming retaliation and politicking between the two countries.
Yeah. There were bad actions taken on both sides here. Nobody wins. Let's hope this comes to a semi-peaceful resolution.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17339468
"His motives are unclear, but there is speculation that he might have been drunk or had suffered a mental breakdown. Officers are worried that the attack might have been planned"
Best way to disfuse imho is to hand the dude over to Afghan authoritys. Granted it would not end well for him but all the hate would focus on him and disperse somewhat at the public execution. What other outcome would you want in their position.
Was this truly random or were the families that were hit of significance? That will tell you if there was planning of any significance.
If the heinous actions of one person can potentially wipe out the progress and good will that billions of dollars and millions of man hours spent on this nation. . . then this tells me that perhaps the time and resources could best be spent elsewhere.
belief it or not, i bet this gross amok incident will have (and already had) less fallout then accidentally burning some worn out religious books
its more then 36h? and nothing happend or got in the news so far ...while you all know the outcome of that 'book burning incident' some weeks ago.
well, that says a lot about the medieval mindset society overthere: kill some women and children on purpose ... not much of a fuss ...burn some religious text paperbacks accidently ...they go apeshit in minutes ::)
which makes me wonder if we are missing some details on this ...
All I can say is I was struck by the contrast.
In ten years of fighting, one of our guys loses it.
OTOH, random killings are the signature of the bad guys and they do it all the time.
Quote from: LongBlade on March 12, 2012, 12:11:33 PM
All I can say is I was struck by the contrast.
In ten years of fighting, one of our guys loses it.
OTOH, random killings are the signature of the bad guys and they do it all the time.
but they freak when one of our planes drops ordinance and accidentally kills civilians... maybe it is a sexist thing? This was mostly women, or maybe its our media screwing up their reporting ala vietnam style coverage again.
I think all it has to do with is propaganda.
We cause a splinter of collateral damage and they know our press will go bananas over it.
When they encourage their families to be around them when they *know* we're headhunting, and then "civilians" get killed when we do catch them, that's nothing but cynicism.
Quote from: MikeGER on March 12, 2012, 12:04:02 PM
belief it or not, i bet this gross amok incident will have (and already had) less fallout then accidentally burning some worn out religious books
its more then 36h? and nothing happend or got in the news so far ...while you all know the outcome of that 'book burning incident' some weeks ago.
well, that says a lot about the medieval mindset society overthere: kill some women and children on purpose ... not much of a fuss ...burn some religious text paperbacks accidently ...they go apeshit in minutes ::)
You talk shite, women and children dead and you want a point score feast versus a koran or two. Hope you were seriously pished when you posted that rot and believe me I am holding back from very easy stereo types (self edited)
Quote from: The Puss on March 12, 2012, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: MikeGER on March 12, 2012, 12:04:02 PM
belief it or not, i bet this gross amok incident will have (and already had) less fallout then accidentally burning some worn out religious books
its more then 36h? and nothing happend or got in the news so far ...while you all know the outcome of that 'book burning incident' some weeks ago.
well, that says a lot about the medieval mindset society overthere: kill some women and children on purpose ... not much of a fuss ...burn some religious text paperbacks accidently ...they go apeshit in minutes ::)
You talk shite, women and children dead and you want a point score feast versus a koran or two. Hope you were seriously pished when you posted that rot and believe me I am holding back from very easy stereo types (self edited)
I think you may misunderstand him - I think he means that the locals won't riot in the streets over these killings like they did the book burnings. I don't think he implied a "point score" but rather how messed up the culture over there is.
Quote from: Windigo on March 12, 2012, 11:20:29 AM
If the heinous actions of one person can potentially wipe out the progress and good will that billions of dollars and millions of man hours spent on this nation. . . then this tells me that perhaps the time and resources could best be spent elsewhere.
QFT.
Quote from: The Puss on March 12, 2012, 05:37:24 PM
Quote from: MikeGER on March 12, 2012, 12:04:02 PM
belief it or not, i bet this gross amok incident will have (and already had) less fallout then accidentally burning some worn out religious books
its more then 36h? and nothing happend or got in the news so far ...while you all know the outcome of that 'book burning incident' some weeks ago.
well, that says a lot about the medieval mindset society overthere: kill some women and children on purpose ... not much of a fuss ...burn some religious text paperbacks accidently ...they go apeshit in minutes ::)
You talk shite, women and children dead and you want a point score feast versus a koran or two. Hope you were seriously pished when you posted that rot and believe me I am holding back from very easy stereo types (self edited)
Correct me if im wrong and well off topic, i seldom see the word "pished" on these forums and am thinking you would understand the concept of a "bottleaginger". :)
Quote from: The Puss on March 12, 2012, 05:37:24 PM
You talk shite...
No, i am talking shiite ;)
i am never phised at 1804 ... but often royally pissed (off) :P
(before you start lecturing again, i know most of Stan is Sunni Country ... so let's just say: I talked
Sharialook our
good friend Karazai got himself into shallow waters these days with statements about women like this:
(i know, to chamberlain the radical elements in-country threatening his clans corrupt government staying on top for a little while longer, milking western aid $ ...before Stan is turned in
slightly moderate Taliban country again 2014 ...just with new faces ...sporting a little more trimmed beards ;) ...not harboring any terrorist military training camps any more ... Global Hawk's prevent that 8) ...
only Terrorist religious indoctrination centers, called Madrassas :o ... we cant hit those: there full of Qurans ;) ... and some male younglings too)
Last Friday, the Council, Afghanistan's highest Islamic authority, issued a non-binding edict saying that women were worth less than men — a statement released by Karzai's office and then endorsed by the president on Tuesday.
"Men are fundamental and women are secondary," it said, adding women should avoid "mingling with strange men in various social activities such as education, in bazaars, in offices and other aspects of life". The edict went on to say that women would wear "full Islamic hijab", should respect polygamy — Islam allows a man to take up to four wives — and comply with Sharia law on divorce, which severely restricts women's rights.
It further stated that "teasing, harassing and beating women" was prohibited "without a sharia-compliant reason" — leaving open the suggestion that in some circumstances, domestic abuse is appropriate. Quote from: LongBlade
I don't think he implied a "point score" but rather how messed up the culture over there is.
Exactly !
QuoteI think you may misunderstand him - I think he means that the locals won't riot in the streets over these killings like they did the book burnings. I don't think he implied a "point score" but rather how messed up the culture over there is.
While I have no doubt this is what Mike means, given what he said above, I think that the opinion misses a major aspect of this. There is no "one culture" over there any more than there is here. These two actions will anger two different factions in different ways. The book burnings anger the radicals the most, enough to do violence. The slayings will anger the regular civilians and non-radicals (as well as the radicals). This is not a reflection of a skewed culture but factions within a culture.
First off Mike , no problem with you but I think you just might have underestimated how the locals might react.
Quote
Afghanistan militants attack Kandahar killings site
Militants in Afghanistan have launched an attack on a government delegation visiting the site where a US soldier killed 16 civilians.
Two of Afghan President Hamid Karzai's brothers and several top security officials were in the delegation in Panjwai in Kandahar province.
One Afghan soldier and three of the militants were killed, police said. The delegation is heading back to Kandahar.
The US soldier said to have carried out Sunday's attacks is under arrest.
A US military official said that "probable cause" had been found, meaning they could continue to hold the soldier. The unnamed 38-year-old staff sergeant is being held at an undisclosed location.
'No rush to exits'
A senior Afghan official confirmed to the BBC that an attack "from several directions" had taken place on the delegation, which was there to meet villagers and tribal elders. Afghan forces returned fire.
The BBC's Bilal Sarwary in Kabul says officials reported a 10-minute gun battle during which Taliban fighters fired from a distance at a mosque where the delegation and civilians were taking part in a prayer service.
Panjwai police said that in addition to the soldier killed, two other people, including an intelligence officer, were wounded.
One of Mr Karzai's brothers, Qayum, told the Associated Press news agency it appeared initially that the attack was not serious and the delegation "assumed that it was the national army that started to fire in the air".
He said the delegation, which included Kandahar's governor and the minister of border and tribal affairs, was safe and returning to Kandahar city.
A member of the delegation, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, told AP the governor was trying to explain to locals that the shooting was an isolated incident.
"But the people were just shouting and they were very angry. They didn't listen to the governor. They accused him of defending the Americans instead of defending the Kandahari people," Mr Ayubi said.
Anti-US sentiment is already high in Afghanistan after soldiers burned some copies of the Koran at a Nato base in Kabul last month, sparking deadly riots across the country.
On Tuesday morning, some 600 students took part in a rally in the eastern city of Jalalabad, condemning the Kandahar attack and chanting "Death to America! Death to Obama!".
In Washington, US President Barack Obama said America was "heartbroken over the loss of innocent life", and promised no effort would be spared in investigating the shooting and bringing the culprit to justice.
"We will follow the facts wherever they lead us," he said, "and we will make sure that anybody who was involved is held fully accountable with the full force of law."
He also insisted that the US will "responsibly" withdraw its forces between now and the end of 2014, the date he set with allies to close out the war, dismissing media speculation that he might speed up the process.
US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta said the soldier who has been detained in connection with the Kandahar shootings could face the death penalty if found guilty.
The Taliban has renewed threats of revenge attacks, saying it would behead "sadistic" American soldiers.
'Cowered in fear'
Details about Sunday's shootings are still unclear. The American soldier left his base in Kandahar in the early hours and went on a rampage in nearby villages.
Locals told reporters how they cowered in fear as the man made his way from door to door, trying to get into their houses.
"I saw a man, he dragged a woman by her hair and banged her head repeatedly against the wall. She didn't say a word," one witness said.
He broke into three houses and killed 16 people, most of them women and children. He then burned their bodies, according to reports.
The US defence secretary said the soldier "came back to the forward operating base and basically turned himself in, told individuals what had happened".
Pentagon officials said they would not release his name while the investigation was going on.
Reports said the soldier, who has three children, had been deployed to Afghanistan in December for his first tour of duty there after serving three times in Iraq.
This NYT article basically makes the same point as Mike.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/disconnect-clear-in-us-bafflement-over-2-afghan-responses.html?_r=1&hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/disconnect-clear-in-us-bafflement-over-2-afghan-responses.html?_r=1&hp)
QuoteIf the heinous actions of one person can potentially wipe out the progress and good will that billions of dollars and millions of man hours spent on this nation. . . then this tells me that perhaps the time and resources could best be spent elsewhere.
I so totally agree - if there is anything that I've taken away from the whole War on Terror thing it's that trying to reform a troubled/terrorist infested country is BS. We shoulda just bombed the hell outta Afghanistan, a la Libya, and then went on to the next the country that needed to be "fixed." Sure it woulda created anti-western sentiment and I'm sure problems would crop up again later ....but it would still be cheaper and safer for our troops to go back and hit them every 5 years then flush 10 years down the drain for the the same result.