This has bugged me for years in playing Space 4X games and that is that the military aspect generally involves only two aspects. The first is researching technology and incorporating that technology in ship designs. The second is simply hurling mass numbers of ships in sometimes detailed ship combat without any real fleet organization. The ground combat game usually involves just dumping a number of transports at an enemy occupied planet. Militarily, most of these games are unsatisfying to me. Is there any 4X game that deals with fleet and ground operations in a more detailed approach? I guess I am looking for a space wargame. Does such an animal exist?
Even though MOO2 involved just overwhelming a planet with ground troop transports, I immensely enjoyed watching the shootout on the surface.
Trey
Quote from: Great Ajax on July 02, 2013, 09:45:17 AM
This has bugged me for years in playing Space 4X games and that is that the military aspect generally involves only two aspects. The first is researching technology and incorporating that technology in ship designs. The second is simply hurling mass numbers of ships in sometimes detailed ship combat without any real fleet organization. The ground combat game usually involves just dumping a number of transports at an enemy occupied planet. Militarily, most of these games are unsatisfying to me. Is there any 4X game that deals with fleet and ground operations in a more detailed approach? I guess I am looking for a space wargame. Does such an animal exist?
Even though MOO2 involved just overwhelming a planet with ground troop transports, I immensely enjoyed watching the shootout on the surface.
Trey
This is one of the reasons why I have always stated that MOO3, properly patched and modded, is one of the greatest 4x games of all time. you can organize your ships into flotillas, squadrons, fleets, armadas, etc. You can then classify them by role and designate them with any organizational system you choose. Ground troops can also be formed into detachments, battalions, Regiments, Divisions, Corps and Armies. They too can be organizationally designated in any manner you choose.
There are unit number and type requirements that change based upon the size of your ship and ground force units. In other words, for a fleet, you must include a certain number of pickets, core vessels and C3 ships. Likewise ground units must also be balanced by unit type depending on size. Additionally, you can set experience requirements, as well, so that you can control the quality of your OOB. For example, you can form a trained division, that requires a certain number of trained units in addition to those that are fresh recruits. Or, you can create an elite division, made up of a greater proportion of veteran, or crack units.
Of course, as technology advances, the number of invasion and battle tactic options increase.
It is hands down the most detailed system I've seen in any 4x game. I'm eagerly waiting for someone else to match or exceed it.
There's always Aurora. If you can get over the spartan graphics and UI. You don't just research and design ship's, you design each component that goes on to your ships. From the fire control systems, ordnance, engines, etc. You also have to take into account the fleet doctrine and where a ship class fits into the overall scheme.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/ (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/)
Aurora has a decent ground combat system but its not graphical at all.
you have planetary defence centers, various types of military units from garrison forces to heavy armor and marines. you also have various sizes and need dedicated ships for planetary assaults. you also need to assign commanders with their own variables and unit training schedules.
Yep. aurora is about all You are going to get if you were looking for that detail of a level of combat
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 02, 2013, 10:03:20 AM
This is one of the reasons why I have always stated that MOO3, properly patched and modded, is one of the greatest 4x games of all time. you can organize your ships into flotillas, squadrons, fleets, armadas, etc. You can then classify them by role and designate them with any organizational system you choose. Ground troops can also be formed into detachments, battalions, Regiments, Divisions, Corps and Armies. They too can be organizationally designated in any manner you choose.
There are unit number and type requirements that change based upon the size of your ship and ground force units. In other words, for a fleet, you must include a certain number of pickets, core vessels and C3 ships. Likewise ground units must also be balanced by unit type depending on size. Additionally, you can set experience requirements, as well, so that you can control the quality of your OOB. For example, you can form a trained division, that requires a certain number of trained units in addition to those that are fresh recruits. Or, you can create an elite division, made up of a greater proportion of veteran, or crack units.
Of course, as technology advances, the number of invasion and battle tactic options increase.
It is hands down the most detailed system I've seen in any 4x game. I'm eagerly waiting for someone else to match or exceed it.
Jarhead, which of the mods do you recommend? I remember there being 3 large mods a few years back.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 02, 2013, 10:03:20 AM
Quote from: Great Ajax on July 02, 2013, 09:45:17 AM
This has bugged me for years in playing Space 4X games and that is that the military aspect generally involves only two aspects. The first is researching technology and incorporating that technology in ship designs. The second is simply hurling mass numbers of ships in sometimes detailed ship combat without any real fleet organization. The ground combat game usually involves just dumping a number of transports at an enemy occupied planet. Militarily, most of these games are unsatisfying to me. Is there any 4X game that deals with fleet and ground operations in a more detailed approach? I guess I am looking for a space wargame. Does such an animal exist?
Even though MOO2 involved just overwhelming a planet with ground troop transports, I immensely enjoyed watching the shootout on the surface.
Trey
This is one of the reasons why I have always stated that MOO3, properly patched and modded, is one of the greatest 4x games of all time. you can organize your ships into flotillas, squadrons, fleets, armadas, etc. You can then classify them by role and designate them with any organizational system you choose. Ground troops can also be formed into detachments, battalions, Regiments, Divisions, Corps and Armies. They too can be organizationally designated in any manner you choose.
There are unit number and type requirements that change based upon the size of your ship and ground force units. In other words, for a fleet, you must include a certain number of pickets, core vessels and C3 ships. Likewise ground units must also be balanced by unit type depending on size. Additionally, you can set experience requirements, as well, so that you can control the quality of your OOB. For example, you can form a trained division, that requires a certain number of trained units in addition to those that are fresh recruits. Or, you can create an elite division, made up of a greater proportion of veteran, or crack units.
Of course, as technology advances, the number of invasion and battle tactic options increase.
It is hands down the most detailed system I've seen in any 4x game. I'm eagerly waiting for someone else to match or exceed it.
Which mods do you recommend. I have the Steam version I believe
One of the reasons is that at the point you're directing an entire civilization, you ought to have competent subordinates to handle MTOEs, acquisitions, training, tactics, etc. You're not also trying to micromanage inter-bank loan rights, private investment capital, employment incentives, and job-training, are you?
I get that we're grogs and want to poke and prod and play with all the boom-producing toys, but I think the scale of the game dictates how far down into micro-managing you actually get.
The three most popular mods for moo3 are the strawberry, chocolate and tropical mods. I have no idea why they used this naming convention, it certainly has nothing to do with the description of the mod. I believe I use the tropical mod because it actually combines the other two mods, and then adds some critical patches and other smaller popular community mods.
Over the years, I had posted links, AARs and info. Regarding the mods and patched game at wargamer. I'll try to dig up those old threads and reprint them here.
Jarhead started a discussion here last year about Moo3 and the mods to make it work well.
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=2476.0
Wow...I forgot I did that here too!
Thanks for the tip, Jarhead. I picked this up some time ago on GoG and never gave it a spin and MOO3 sounds like it is worth a try. The itch that I am having here is an interstellar wargame composed of both detailed fleet and ground forces. I want to pick up a game where all of the exploration and diplomacy is done and now it is just intergalactic fisticuffs. A Warhammer 40K game would fit in nicely here.
Trey
Same here...bought it and never played it.
Quote from: Great Ajax on July 02, 2013, 02:18:43 PM
Thanks for the tip, Jarhead. I picked this up some time ago on GoG and never gave it a spin and MOO3 sounds like it is worth a try. The itch that I am having here is an interstellar wargame composed of both detailed fleet and ground forces. I want to pick up a game where all of the exploration and diplomacy is done and now it is just intergalactic fisticuffs. A Warhammer 40K game would fit in nicely here.
Trey
Ahhh...ok. So Aurora may be your best bet then because with the space master, you can create resources, ships, colonies, etc., without having to build them...you can therefore create any starting conditions you want.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 02, 2013, 01:14:37 PM
The three most popular mods for moo3 are the strawberry, chocolate and tropical mods. I have no idea why they used this naming convention, it certainly has nothing to do with the description of the mod. I believe I use the tropical mod because it actually combines the other two mods, and then adds some critical patches and other smaller popular community mods.
Over the years, I had posted links, AARs and info. Regarding the mods and patched game at wargamer. I'll try to dig up those old threads and reprint them here.
Alternate flavours to vanilla?
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 02, 2013, 03:38:55 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 02, 2013, 01:14:37 PM
The three most popular mods for moo3 are the strawberry, chocolate and tropical mods. I have no idea why they used this naming convention, it certainly has nothing to do with the description of the mod. I believe I use the tropical mod because it actually combines the other two mods, and then adds some critical patches and other smaller popular community mods.
Over the years, I had posted links, AARs and info. Regarding the mods and patched game at wargamer. I'll try to dig up those old threads and reprint them here.
Alternate flavours to vanilla?
Whoa ! check out the big brain on undercover geek! Lol
Scary thing is that in the three years I knew about the mod I never once realized that's why they were called strawberry and chocolate
Lol - its just a guess! I'm just glad there was another reply after stars - I didn't want to be left hanging as a perv!
I bought it from GG...just downloaded the tropical mod. From one post, it looks like a pain to install. Drop this file, delete that file, open this file and change these 10 lines, close and open this file..repeat 10 times, lol. Has to be an easier way.
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 02, 2013, 03:56:51 PM
Lol - its just a guess! I'm just glad there was another reply after stars - I didn't want to be left hanging as a perv!
Your guess was correct.
I don't recall which was the first to come out so long ago, but I'm guessing it was chocolate or strawberry. I'd seen the first couple years ago, but never knew about tropical.. that must've came a little later. IIRC, the bug fixes weren't universal between them at the time, although they shared many of the unofficial patch fixes - can't remember the name of those either.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 02, 2013, 01:04:24 PM
One of the reasons is that at the point you're directing an entire civilization, you ought to have competent subordinates to handle MTOEs, acquisitions, training, tactics, etc. You're not also trying to micromanage inter-bank loan rights, private investment capital, employment incentives, and job-training, are you?
I get that we're grogs and want to poke and prod and play with all the boom-producing toys, but I think the scale of the game dictates how far down into micro-managing you actually get.
I understand what you're saying Brant, but Great Ajax has a very good point also. Master of Orion is 20 years old this year, but is there really any difference it and Distant Worlds. Both are pretty much grab as many colonies as possible, research the faster and build more and bigger hammers than the other guy. After all of this time, we're still seeing just a rehash of the same thing for 20 years. Why do we have the strategy equivalent of First Person Shooters. Why should we not expect by this time, more details from our games. Mission specific ships/units, formations, Task Forces with higher level commands, population types (see Victoria 2), more complicated economies (pops that demand products, product specific industries, etc). How about empire building games that take advantage of dual monitors, one for the map and one for the empire information. Technology variation, so that a heavy laser statistics change not only from game to game, but different empires will have different heavy lasers that perform differently, thus forcing players think about their unit designs from game to game and not just cookie cut designs.
I don't have the time or money to buy all of the games out there, so maybe we're getting close than I think.
^^^ thats what Aurora does.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on July 02, 2013, 06:34:05 PM
^^^ thats what Aurora does.
And it's free. I was starting to get into, but got pulled away with work and kids spring sports. I need to start it up again.
I can't install tropical mod. I copied all of the files into the moo3 folder but when I click on the moo3 patcher and it brings up the patch window, it says it is unable to locate any of the executables for any of the patches. In the instructions it says to instal the Moo3.dll file first but there is no option to do so in the patch window. When I browse, it won't show the .dll file
There were some that I was able to click on and they patched separately. I guess my question is "without using those patches, did the files that I replaced the stock ones with add big fixes and such so that all I am missing is some mod gameplay stuff"!
Doesn't seem to work with windows 8. When trying to patch the game I get a "cant find MOO3 installation folder" after double clicking the exe. Tried moving the exe to the folder where MOO3 is installed and got the same message.
Does anyone else get a virus notification when unpacking the tropical .zip file?
Not sure what's going on. When I run the patcher I get "unable to locate/open executable" who knows. I am playing it without any of those patches and just the replaced files...seems ok. Hopefully the patches are just optional extras and the AI improvements and such come with replacing stock files with the included tropical files that you just drag and replace
Edit: I fixed it. In patcher...hit browse and double click on the MoO3.exe. Then it will allow you to patch. I am a moron and get frustrated with mods...sigh
Anyway, looking forward toy first Moo3 game
I guess those of you playing MOO3 are playing the download version? I have the boxed copy and I can't get it to work in Windows 7.
I have the discs around somewhere, but I just grabbed the download from gog.com for $5. Seems to work fine on win7 64-bit.
Yeah, I'm sure the GOG version has been fixed to work properly on Win7 but I'm not really in a position to buy any games at the moment, certainly not one I already own. I'll have to do some research.
Actually mine is from Gamersgate I believe
Quote from: Huw the Poo on July 04, 2013, 12:53:21 AM
I guess those of you playing MOO3 are playing the download version? I have the boxed copy and I can't get it to work in Windows 7.
Another advantage for DRM-free software.
I've had regular issues with old disc-check DRM and newer OSes not working together, and this sounds like another case of just that.
not that it was a good game but didnt Battlecruiser 3000 have a ground component to it?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on July 04, 2013, 09:41:02 AM
not that it was a good game but didnt Battlecruiser 3000 have a ground component to it?
It did, yes, but you're correct to say it wasn't a good game. Bloody awful, in fact. :)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 02, 2013, 10:03:20 AM
This is one of the reasons why I have always stated that MOO3, properly patched and modded, is one of the greatest 4x games of all time.
Agree 100%. I still play MOO3. As a matter of fact, I'll re-load it now. Unfortunately, some of the critical code patches, done by Bhruic, are no longer available via his site, which is down. Some of his work WAS included in the Strawberry and Chocolate and Vanilla mods, which are very good indeed. I would like to get the Chocolate mod, but cannot seem to find a good link.
Helpful links:
http://www.moo3.at/
http://members.chello.nl/gbrinkers/codemods.html
Having never plays Moo3, it seems to be a very deep and complex game. I can see bits and pieces that were adopted by later game I have played. Graphics are ....utilitarian. But hey, I play Aurora and Distant worlds so there.
I tried again to get into Endless space but it simply isn't deep enough for me. I like DW but want a little more detail in my fleets and fighting. I think Moo3 might scratch the itch
MOO3 installed readily enough, but here's what happens when I try to play it: I click the launcher, the cursor becomes a spinning disc, and my disc drives thrashes like fuck for five minutes. Then nothing.
Are u using a digital download version or originals from disc?
The disc version.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on July 04, 2013, 02:44:31 PM
MOO3 installed readily enough, but here's what happens when I try to play it: I click the launcher, the cursor becomes a spinning disc, and my disc drives thrashes like fuck for five minutes. Then nothing.
Try running in XP compatibility mode and running as administrator. It takes forever for it to launch for me. Also, don't click on anything once you launch it - just let it run.
And NEVER install an XP game in the default directory. Always create a custom "GamesXP" Directory or somesuch and install the game into its own subdirectory there. This solves a host of problems. I have never had an XP game fail to run in Win7-64 bit. Sometimes additional jiggering with the GPU/motherboard graphics is also necessary.
Truthfully, an easier solution is go buy the digital version at "good old games" GOG.com
I think it's like $2.99 or something. That version definitely works on windows 7 64 bit and you don't have to worry about installing here or running as an admin there or whatever.
Has anyone ever tried the multiplayer? I think I remember playing for a couple of hours with a friend when it first came out, but never really since then.
Well I already have it installed so I'll give the above tips a try first. Thanks guys.
I switched to the GOG edition a long time ago....so much easier...still have the discs as souvenir.... 8)
Quote from: bbmike on July 04, 2013, 04:23:27 PM
Try running in XP compatibility mode and running as administrator. It takes forever for it to launch for me. Also, don't click on anything once you launch it - just let it run.
This worked! Thanks, bbmike. Now I just need to get the mods installed and figure out how to run it in a proper resolution. :)
Quote from: Huw the Poo on July 05, 2013, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: bbmike on July 04, 2013, 04:23:27 PM
Try running in XP compatibility mode and running as administrator. It takes forever for it to launch for me. Also, don't click on anything once you launch it - just let it run.
This worked! Thanks, bbmike. Now I just need to get the mods installed and figure out how to run it in a proper resolution. :)
Found a few resources that may help:
New version for the tropico mod (v1.38): http://www.mediafire.com/?bab6i5ezwj6u1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?bab6i5ezwj6u1)
Step by Step guide on how to mod MOO3 over on the GOG forums: http://www.gog.com/forum/master_of_orion_series/tutorial_master_of_orion_3_tropical_mod_patched_confirmed_windows_7_x64 (http://www.gog.com/forum/master_of_orion_series/tutorial_master_of_orion_3_tropical_mod_patched_confirmed_windows_7_x64)
Thanks for the link to 1.38. It looks like the mods have put a bunch of guides into the encyclopedia, which is nice since I don't remember much about dev plans. Starting up a game as the Klackons.
Thanks Kushan. I plan to have a proper look at this sometime this weekend, if I get a chance. I'm quite excited now; I'm absolutely loving my game of Endless Space that I have going with Geek, but it has put me in the mood for something mega-deep.
Quote from: Kushan on July 05, 2013, 08:02:56 PM
Quote from: Huw the Poo on July 05, 2013, 06:52:29 PM
Quote from: bbmike on July 04, 2013, 04:23:27 PM
Try running in XP compatibility mode and running as administrator. It takes forever for it to launch for me. Also, don't click on anything once you launch it - just let it run.
This worked! Thanks, bbmike. Now I just need to get the mods installed and figure out how to run it in a proper resolution. :)
Found a few resources that may help:
New version for the tropico mod (v1.38): http://www.mediafire.com/?bab6i5ezwj6u1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?bab6i5ezwj6u1)
Step by Step guide on how to mod MOO3 over on the GOG forums: http://www.gog.com/forum/master_of_orion_series/tutorial_master_of_orion_3_tropical_mod_patched_confirmed_windows_7_x64 (http://www.gog.com/forum/master_of_orion_series/tutorial_master_of_orion_3_tropical_mod_patched_confirmed_windows_7_x64)
I had though 1.3.11 was the most recent
I just updated to 138. This game still plays pretty well.
Has anyone else had no ships when starting a new game? I thought you used to have a couple of scouts to begin with, but there is nothing and no current designs at the start. Wondering if this is an intentional thing on the part of the tropical mod, or if I screwed something up.
^It is intentional. Design and build.
Is there a way to tell that you are running the tropical mod? I have never played the vanilla version so I can tell what's what. I'm looking for "your galaxy will rotate" or "of you click on planets you will see ...." Something like that easily recognizable.
Well, if you're launching the game with the replacement .exe that came with the mod, you're surely doing it right...? Or is there more to it than that? Some documentation with these mods would've been nice...
I thought the instructions said not to use the replacement "Moo3.exe". I used the one that I got form GG, copy/pasted/replaced the folders,, ran the patcher and then manually ran the 10 or so other mods that were included. I don't know. Too bad there is not a "Tropical mod" load screen or something
Ah - I'm not using the GoG version. Ignore me. :D
Quote from: Huw the Poo on July 06, 2013, 04:13:55 PM
Ah - I'm not using the GoG version. Ignore me. :D
[/]
Here are the instructions I used...if anyone else needs them
#0: Download Moo3 from Gog and the mod of your choice from the mod site, above.
#1: Install Moo3.
#2: Back it up! Just copy the whole install directory and paste it right back into the gog directory. It'll back up everything into "Master of Orion 3 - Copy" - this is much easier to restore than from the install.
#3: Extract the mod package to its own directory and DELETE moo3.exe - we won't be using it, but rather the GOG (drm-free) moo3.exe. THIS IS IMPORTANT. If you don't delete the pre-modded executable you will be starting over.
#4: Copy the contents of the mod directory into your Moo3 directory. All of it. Make sure you click "yes" to the copy confirmation and to REPLACE the original files.
#5: Run Moo3Patcher.exe - this is what will apply the patches to the GOG moo3.exe.
- this next step is critical -
#6: Underneith the patch window is a window That says "Moo3DLL.dll" - there's an install button next to it. press it. If it can't find the file, browse to the Moo3DLL.dll file in the moo3 directory. This is from the mod files. You want this.
Well, my game is screwed all to hell now. Got the "directx surface error" so had to reinstall. Of course I got it again, reinstalled again, applied the mod and now the exe won't even start. Can play vanilla but not modded *sigh*
Sorry to hear it, Mike. I wish I could help. Try this forum (http://www.moo3.at/board/) which seems to be fairly active and knowledgable.
For my part, the game seems to be running fine and I can only assume the Tropical mod is working. However, I'd forgotten just how deep the game is! I've retrieved my manual and will have to have a bit of a read before attempting to play.
Got it working do long as I don't use the patcher to install the optional patches. If I do, I get the directx error..oh we'll, none are necessary I don't think. In the backup folder of the 1.13.11mod there are some patches I can manually install so I think that should cover everything I need.
Have you been speeding through tech? Seem like every turn I am discovering some type of tech???
Seems to be a very complex game...especially when it comes to managing the industry and building
I got it working with the GOG version last night. Deleted the exe that came with the mod and used the default GOG one. Patcher works just fine, had to copy a few dll files from my Adobe CS2 install to get it to work.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on July 07, 2013, 03:46:58 AM
However, I'd forgotten just how deep the game is! I've retrieved my manual and will have to have a bit of a read before attempting to play.
I think I'm going to have to read the manual as well. Maybe read a few guides and watch a youtube lets play if I can find one. I played for a few minutes last night and was a little overwhelmed by the interface.
Research in Moo3-Tropical is too fast for me. I remember slowing it down years ago, but I cannot remember how I did it. Also, I think I am going to jigger the task force rules. My old notes on that are Greek to me now. I really love the tactical combat model this game uses.
A word of caution. Do not try to micromanage the game. It has an extremely robust AI that serves as a micromanager of your empire. As leader of an intergalactic empire, your job is to serve as macromanager. You will find that in order to micromanage your game, you will be fighting not only the UI, but your own AI, as well. This will frustrate you and may lead you to cast the game aside as flawed garbage like so many before you. Play the game in the manner in which it was designed to be played and you will grow to love it.
Personally, I permit my factions AI to lead in planetary development, production and research. I find it does a far better job than I ever could. At the same time, I will intervene only when I need something very specific. For instance, I will order the construction of specific vessels when I want to build a specific fleet, or I will build specific ground forces when I want to construct an invasion force. Otherwise, I will leave it all up to the AI while I act as an overseer and guide.
I don't mind letting the AI do its thing if its good. Right now I don't know enough to tell if it is or not buy I will take your word.
Not sure why patcher won't work now. When I select my stock GG Moo3.exe, the patcher lists all of the patches as "incompatible". So I have to "restore" them and then patch them. Before, when it was working, the exe showed "Unpatched" but not "incompatable"
Ah HA! I just found some of my old notes...tons of txt files and docs from 2003 to 2006. And in them:
Technology Modifying
The speed of tech advances is determined by the file, TechTables.txt.
The part to adjust is Row I, lines 32-37. Raising those numbers will slow down research. I recommend you not exceed 1.35 for Economics, Biology & Social, and do not exceed 1.4 for Mathematics, Energy and Physics, until you have play-tested it with those settings.
OTHER
To increase the number of ships in the picket and escort rings:
1: Unzip TaskForceRules.txt and open it.
2: Look at the first table in that spreadsheet. The upper row of column headers should have two entries titled "Escorts" and "Pickets" (IIRC).
3: Change the value for these columns to whatever you want.
To remove planet destroying weapons:
1: Unzip and open up TechTables.txt.
2: Look in the section with all the weapons for any weapon with the modifier PntDstWp=1. Remove all instances of this. You can also look at the weapons mounts and remove any instances of PntDstMt=1 you see.
Thanks! Definitely going to slow down tech advances