eSim Games, the developer behind Steel Beasts is offering time limited licenses to its customers. These licenses do not require the codemeter stick but are limited by time and may only be installed on one computer. Esim Games will not support moving the license from one system to another. The pricing scheme is as follows...
a one-month license for $10.-
a four-month license for $25.-
a one year license for $40.-
An upgrade of a prior Steel Beasts Pro license is $40 and the base purchase price for upcoming 3.0 version of Steel Beasts Pro is $115.
The logic behind this approach is supposedly to assist customers who cannot afford the $115 price of entry. This may seem altruistic, but the whole concept of time limited licenses is frightening to me...personally, I hope that very few time limited licenses are sold. I do not want this to serve as a model for other developers and future titles. Eventually, all licenses will be limited by time, if some have their way.
Who would drop money on such rentals? Especially when it's something that'll take a lot of time to learn properly?
I dunno what's going on with the marketing side of things at eSim but every time I hear about their DRM I don't even bother checking out the game. This news doesn't change that, either. ???
It will be interesting to see how the general community at Simhq feels about this. I've already voiced my concerns in response to one absent minded poster who actually said he "loves" the idea! I have a feeling SBPro has a lot of fanboi followers who will never say anything negative about the game or eSim Games.
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3805452#Post3805452 (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3805452#Post3805452)
Quote
^Why on Earth would anyone ever support a concept like this? This is exactly the reason why licensing through DRM is so potentially harmful to the consumer. When you "buy" digital software, you are typically not actually "buying" the software, but rather, a limited license, or a right to use the software. You do not actually own anything tangible and the license is revocable.
This is the next evolution in the concept. You're now paying money to essentially borrow software for a month, four months, a year, whatever...soon, if this catches on, there will be no option to buy a license in perpetuity. All software will be limited by time. If you want to play for longer, pay up!
This type of scheme should not be condoned our lauded...it should be feared.
I get it, you get to have the product (if only for a few weeks) and pay less for it. But with a game like SBPro, this makes even less sense since there is such a steep learning curve and it takes days, weeks or months, just to fully learn how to take advantage of and get the most out of the product. Oh, and don't forget, no need for a codemeter stick! Yay! This is almost like an acknowledgement that this whole system of DRM is a completely unnecessary hassle.
I'm NOT suggesting that eSim Games is attempting this to purposely cash in or to somehow scam potential customers, but that is an unfortunate possible end result.
I say two thumbs down to temporary time sensitive licensing. BOOOOO!
I'll pass, thanks.
Check the Simhq thread. Its shocking how many people are willing to hail this approach as a good thing for the community. I just do not get it.
Well, I can see a point. I'd have liked the idea to pay $10 for a month to try War in the Pacific. Though, it probably would have cost them a sale.
I think the one month license is a good idea for someone who wants to try an expensive game that does not have a demo. Beyond that, I can't imagine anyone paying regularly. I'd pay a small amount to try, but if I liked it I'd buy it outright.
That is a key point you just made..."that does not have a demo..."
It used to be the norm to release a free demo to permit potential customers to "try before they buy." Now they are releasing, what is in essence, a demo, but they are actually charging for it and limiting the amount of time you can use it. People in the SBPro community are apparently welcoming this approach with open arms.
Ya I'm flummoxed as to why developers do not release a demos like they used to.
DCS has a good way of doing it. Give away the engine and one airframe, then sell the 'games' as modules. Anyone can play and take part in most of the online games out there without ever paying, but to fly additional hardware you pay.
If I could try Steel Beasts with 'less fun' hardware, like even a TOW equipped Humvee, I'd know more accurately whether it would be a game for me. But instead I continue to hem and haw.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 05, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
Check the Simhq thread. Its shocking how many people are willing to hail this approach as a good thing for the community. I just do not get it.
Obviously the die-hard fanboys are gonna praise anything that comes from there.
The big question is whether very many will actually be using it. Then again.. some of them have already gone for the DRM Dongle insanity, so their wariness of being raped as a consumer was sacrificed long ago.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 05, 2013, 04:42:05 PM
Now they are releasing, what is in essence, a demo, but they are actually charging for it and limiting the amount of time you can use it.
That's my feeling too. That's exactly what they're doing; charging for a demo. Thus, they can suck my balls.
I bought SB in 09 and I've definately got the hours in to make it worth while. Can't wait to finally see what an m1a2 sep can do against a t80 or t90. I got into a heavy debate last year with bunch of russians when dcs combined arms was released. They insisted that the t90 was the uber tank of the century, thats why they are so over done in CA. Well now I can see what a military grade sim would say to this issue.
The m1a2 sep fully modeled is worth price of admission for me alone. Nothing out there models modern armor combat better, lot of good mid 80s wwIII senarios to play. you can play this game like an rts and jump into any vehicle, mp is great but it still uses the archaic direct connect to a host.
The price does scare many away, it was tough for me to drop a hundred on one game. In the end I took the risk and figured if it sucked I could ebay it for 50 bucks to make some money back.
The whole limited license thing ? I would just release a limited license free as a demo, let the product sell itself.
Quote from: republic on July 05, 2013, 05:46:12 PM
Ya I'm flummoxed as to why developers do not release a demos like they used to.
DCS has a good way of doing it. Give away the engine and one airframe, then sell the 'games' as modules. Anyone can play and take part in most of the online games out there without ever paying, but to fly additional hardware you pay.
If I could try Steel Beasts with 'less fun' hardware, like even a TOW equipped Humvee, I'd know more accurately whether it would be a game for me. But instead I continue to hem and haw.
This is a great post. I love the way both DCS and RoF allow you to try before you buy by offering a vehicle with which to use the full software.
I think $125 is a very fair price for SB Pro and in fact I've spent more like $150 since I had to upgrade it recently and that cost $25.
I fully agree with JH on this one.
A more palatable approach, to me, would be to see SB go the DCS/RoF route and offer a free base game with paid modules that plug in. As it is, it's like buying RoF with every available aircraft for $125...equivalent price but no real means to ease into it which scares customers off.
I am not sure I really understand the rage against the dongle, though. I plugged it into the back of my computer in an open USB port and promptly forgot it was even there. I don't see the big deal. And they'll replace it if you lose it.
L'm with JH one this one. If gaming takes this route, I won't be dealing with new games at all.
Imagine if TOAW 3 or the Campaign series were "rented" in this fashion, you'd have to play them constantly to play all the scenarios in a reasonable time frame. @ $10 per month, I know I couldn't do it in 4-5 months, which is the point where "renting" becomes more costly than an outright purchase.
I grant that not all games, especially some of the newer ones, have as many scenarios as those two, seeing as companies have "discovered" the "joys" of DLC to milk the title for all it can get.
If this becomes the industry standard, I suspect that the companies doing so, might find in the long run, that total income they will receive will be somewhat smaller than they imagine. Why? I'm sure that there aren't more than 10% of wargamers who immediately play their most recent purchase right away. Most of us have many games we've bought and even loaded on our hard drives that have been put off for months if not years. If "renting" becomes popular even the wealthiest of us won't be able to afford that sort of behavior, the probable result will be fewer games being dealt with.
I sort of suspect piracy will become more intense as well, which will make even more DRM schemes coming to market.
My deepest loathing of the "renting" concept, is that, in the argument about whether we "own" a game we purchase in the same way we do a book. or whether it is just a license with restrictions, this reinforces the license view.
Between DRM, DLC, and now this, my days as a game purchaser are reaching an end. Sigh..............
On the flipside, if a game were to guarantee some level of constant expansion in exchange for my monthly/yearly fee that would be more palatable...but honestly there is already a mechanic for that with everyone pretty much onboard with DLC and expansions.
yes, its paying for a demo >:(
and DCS is really a much fairer approach to sell their sim
...and i supported them with
"nice to have module"-purchases instead of just the"
I want most"-buy.
years ago (2006 ! go figure :o ) Yourstruly wrote in a discussion about DRM schemes (CD/DVD/DD) and the future of wargaming on the good old forum (when it was not plagued by lunatics and their ever resurfacing sock-puppets or editor in mischief exodus).
Quotei prefer DVD but i fear we are already at the eve of a time when we could only buy a 'key' (hopefully not monthly) and the bigger part of the game is always stored on all the games-company servers and you can download only the client and a small offline training part. the games will all be kind of 'massive multiplayer', even wargames. with never ending Civil War, WW I, WW II, Vietnam, Gulf, SF and other fictional conflicts,... empty slots are filled with AI-bots and you dont even know the difference (at least as a noob, or playing against one), even traditional games like 'future COTA' would be played online only against other humans or a AI which takes over when the opponent drops out (or if you chose to start with AI-option from the beginning) the benefits are world/planetary-wide rolling maps and that what you achieve does matter and contribute to the bigger picture of the ongoing 24/7conflict. the next step will be the 'arcade-pay-method' where we have to pay for every single match/minute.... "insert coin" "insert coin" (aka: put index finger, then thump on your FP-reader to approve the payment for the next 15 minutes)....Sigh!
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=205175&h=insert+coin+&pg=1#205195INSERT COIN
INSERT COIN
... like flashing on the screen in those old arcade machines some may remember from the past.
That is what they all wanted in the end, a 'mirco-pay by use' scheme,
you generously provide the 'arcade hardware' at home, and insert the virtual coins (1-Click / paypal) by pressing a 'Coin' button twice, floating in the lower right corner of the screen.
Seriously, MikeGER, I am impressed with your prescience. I consider myself a pessimist, but in 2006 I never thought things would get to this point.
I popped some smoke over there for what good it will do. Seriously, the positive reactions to this renting idea are really surprising to me.
Quote from: Toonces on July 09, 2013, 10:48:49 PM
I popped some smoke over there for what good it will do. Seriously, the positive reactions to this renting idea are really surprising to me.
Much appreciated. Seriously, I am shocked at the unanimous support this philosophy is getting. They excuse this developer from 1. Not releasing a demo and 2. Trying to rent them a game...and they love it! The response was so hostile and one sided, that I was not going to further respond. There did not appear to be any point. I have stated my concern and I think I have done so clearly and professionally.
I'd guess, but I do not know, that these changes are driven by eSim's military customers, not their hobby customers.
In my experience, military network security types have heart attacks over USB dongles, so I expect there's been a lot of pressure on eSim to change from USB to some other scheme.
Likewise, I'd guess that the direct connection to host is there because those same network security people are not going to permit a simulation to connect to an external host - let alone those situations when SB is running on a closed network. (And, if the rental concept is bad, then having somebody else own your multiplayer host is bad too, right? :) )
A link to the original announcement: http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=19375 (http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=19375)
The previous, non-time-limited, transferable Codemeter license remains an option.
Quote from: James Sterrett on July 10, 2013, 09:46:21 AM
The previous, non-time-limited, transferable Codemeter license remains an option.
I know...I still don't think the "option" is a good idea. If it somehow manages to be profitable, sometime in the future it may no longer be an option, but the only choice.
However, Nils says in the SB.com thread that the Codemeter will remain, and he's been honest and straightforward in my dealings with him. Admittedly, times change, but I trust him that it is not currently planned.
What actually happens, time will tell.
I'm not sure I agree with the comparison between this game and an MMO. Part of the 'rental' cost of an MMO is the management of the servers and their software that exist explictly for the customer interaction.
If I understand correctly, this game is *not* "World of Steel Beasts" where the point of the 'rental' cost is access to the online multiplayer community, right? Or have I misunderstood it?
I think it's an interesting concept, and I can't fault a dev/publisher for trying something different. I don't think it's the bees' knees, but I'm willing to reserve judgment 'til we see how it all actually gets implemented.
And I'm certainly not willing to engage in a flame war with anyone who thinks my skepticism is borne of fanboyishness, as I'm not even a Steel Beasts player...
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 10, 2013, 10:37:21 AM
I'm not sure I agree with the comparison between this game and an MMO. Part of the 'rental' cost of an MMO is the management of the servers and their software that exist explictly for the customer interaction.
If I understand correctly, this game is *not* "World of Steel Beasts" where the point of the 'rental' cost is access to the online multiplayer community, right? Or have I misunderstood it?
I think it's an interesting concept, and I can't fault a dev/publisher for trying something different. I don't think it's the bees' knees, but I'm willing to reserve judgment 'til we see how it all actually gets implemented.
And I'm certainly not willing to engage in a flame war with anyone who thinks my skepticism is borne of fanboyishness, as I'm not even a Steel Beasts player...
I agree that always online DRM and monthly fees for MMOs do not compare to plain 'ole single- and multi-player games.
Whenever they come up with a server farm that can host thousands of players in the same virtual world at once, which are running practically 24-7 and get regular content updates for free, then I can see them charging a small amount monthly. Because then it would be an MMO, the key words being
massively multi-player.
....
On another note, I'm kinda surprised some of you bothered going over there and speaking out against such marketing schemes. Since everyone there seemed to be praising the move, it sounds like a fanboy-fest. May as well argue with your refrigerator. :P Still.. respect for doing so.
It's always nice having more options, and the avid players probably think it will bring a new influx of simmers to their community, which I can understand. But they obviously don't care the cost or ramifications or even whether many potential buyers still think it blows whale choad. Sad thing is... if the only feedback the eSim guys are getting are from the die-hards who'll eat anything they're given, then this can only be a loss for future possibilities the rest of us might consider.
Quote from: Nefaro on July 10, 2013, 11:11:59 AMMay as well argue with your refrigerator.
I will have you know that I am highly dissatisfied with my refrigerator's automated ice dispenser's performance. I routinely berate it several times a day, and sometimes that seems to work.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Fnono2.gif&hash=dc99841addeb4a21edaa8ba3d4db7274b3ae912b)
I don't know why the debate at SimHQ turned somewhat hostile, but I'd like to take the opportunity to explain ourselves a bit and what lead to the decisions to offer time based licenses in addition to the established USB stick solution.
1: Why is there no demo?
I can't speak for other developers. For us, the demo version that we released about four months prior to the original game release was both boon and bane. It helped us to create awareness, which was the whole point of it, but it also created a massive demand for tech support that we could manage only with quite a bit of struggle. If I remember it correctly (memory is fading...) we even had to remake the demo because in the four months leading up to the first game release some substantial changes were added where we felt that the original demo was no longer representative of the original.
It also may be taken as a great compliment if years after the release you still get comments of the kind "The demo was so cool, I have played it for more than a year now" - until you realize that you just lost a sale in exchange for a warm and fuzzy feeling.
In short, you want a demo that is representative of the full game without being so good that people play it rather than actually buying the game. Releasing demo creates a substantial burden in tech support. And demo versions take a life of their own as they are being mirrored on other game sites and eventually start percolating through the internet (maybe even into the "WayBackMachine" and other internet archives) so that people might play a demo that is long obsolete (and then curse you because it either looks dated or won't play properly because it IS dated and won't work on an operating system that wasn't even on the market at the time when the demo was originally released.
These nuisances aside, the decision to use the CodeMeter USB stick as an external decryption device requires that USB sticks be mailed to a (prospective) customer. That is very costly and time consuming, and therefore not practical. The alternative was offered by two volunteers of the Steel Beasts community - to buy multiple licenses, and to configure their home PC as a license server to allow people to connect to them and use these PCs as a source for their license. This incurs a very real and substantial burden on those volunteers, especially with respect to their spare time, and I think it would be neither grateful nor reasonable of eSim Games to expect them to extend their offer forever.
So, in order to relieve the pressure on these volunteers we decided that there should be a demo version for those who felt that they would likely buy it, but who weren't 100% confident. For those who are "pretty confident" but who still want to limit their risk, the four month license has been invented. Regular play can either be done with a $40.- per year subscription or with the established model of buying a permanent license and eventually also following upgrades.
Also, short term licenses may be useful for ad-hoc LAN parties or the kids coming over for the holidays. I'm sure, as always our customers will be more imaginative with license options than we are when inventing this stuff.
2: Is this a nefarious scheme to establish Pay Per Play?
No. Even if you fear a "dangerous precedent" here, the precedent has been set by much bigger corporations with vastly more customers that we will ever manage to win (Adobe, Microsoft, Blizzard). Even if you argue that there is no server farm that must be paid for like for an MMO game - I would point out that only a negligible fraction of World of Warcraft's obscene monthly cash flow is spent on the network infrastructure. The main use of funds (aside from snorting cocaine with $100 bills) is spent on generating new quests and maintaining the whole world (like, saving the unstable virtual economy). Also, to finance ongoing software development for eventual updates.
In that respect, Steel Beasts is quote comparable to the extent that there, too, is a continuous ongoing development. Less so for new content (levels, missions) - but still for new vehicles, maps, updating the render engine, adapting to the latest Windows version, and above all, fixing and improving things that the user may not notice but which is arguably VASTLY more important than the addition of crew stations to the M1A2SEP.
The CodeMeter stick based permanent licenses will stay. We have no inclination to discontinue this option.
3: If eSim Games isn't evil incarnate, then why add this madness to begin with?
Partly answered in #1. The main reason however was the loss risk. Some people lose their sticks. Usually its negligence, sometimes it's bad luck (like a home consumed by a raging inferno), "life", maybe even theft. An in those cases we cannot help the customer. If a CM stick stops working, mail it in for an unlimited warranty. If you damaged it, you have to pay for the stick but at least getting back the license is free.
With a time based license that is tied to the actual hardware of the PC/notebook, at least "normal everyday negligence" as the probably most common cause to losses is out of the equation (those who even forget their desktop PCs while traveling by bus are, I suppose, beyond help).
It's still not entirely without risk, I'm the first to admit it: You may be unaware of the thunderstorm outside because of the thunderstorm of virtual artillery in Steel Beasts, but lightning may strike and ruin your PC along with the recently bought Steel Beasts license. Statistically you may be losing 50% of the rental period here. But that's still cheaper than replacing a damaged CM stick even under unfavorable assumptions. Eventual remaining play time of a license after buying a new computer can be used up by configuring the old PC as a license server (we will assist you in setting things up).
4: You still want to make more money at my expense, don't you?
We're no better people than other heartless capitalists, but this morning I calculated again how much more we're going to earn from a $40.- rental scheme over a $115.- initial purchase together with the to be expected upgrades of the future. Under the assumption of a moderate price increase of upgrades ($25.- in winter 2014, $30.- in summer 2016 and in winter 2017, and $40.- in summer 2019) and assuming that each of the upgrades you consider it worth the pay, it's $240.- for the stick vs $280.- for the evil rental scheme. That's a whopping $40.- in six years, assuming that you take no breaks in your play. If you do, it might even be permanently cheaper since with the rental there will be no license upgrade fees.
In short, I think that our offer is unsuitable to start a big debate about how software rental might ruin everything. We just try to improve our customer service by tailoring an alternative offer to a different type of user. I invite you to denounce me once that eSim Games discontinues the CodeMeter stick. Until then, maybe this isn't quite so bad after all.
;)
Ha!
You beat me to it. I was working on an interview to send you :)
Thanks for coming over, Ssnake!
Ssnake,
Thanks for showing up here :)
i read your text passage about a demo back and for and get the arguments, but...
if you can sell a licence for a month for $10, why not adding an additional shorter time period and 'selling' a licences for maybe 3 days for $0 (and limit the toys that are available for owner of those 3-day licences).
That would be an easy way to create a demo.
It would be allways the latest version. And the simulation is so hardcore that nobody who is really interested in your product will go through the burdening process of renewing that licence again and again, if he really had catch fire, so no sales would be lost too. (there will be some cheapos who will do that for a short while, but those would never purchase anyway or they would have get the $10 after the 3days peek)
Ssnake if you take a look at the (war)game producing industry, and had followed the sneaking changes of how things drift over time, you could understand the worries of an old Grognardhead who had played Kampfgruppe on a C64.
For example, there is a tendency that wargames are already market with heavyweight on the MP part instead of a good SP (limited resources for AI), which is -of course- done over a company server.
Its only a small step from here to 'outsource the AI to the server' even in a SP match
(marketing argument: we help your PC with the calculations and we can provide you with a smarter AI for a better game experience , for example Simcity claimed to do that! )
Next step is give away the otherwise traditional (war)game as a client for free and offer a very small micro-payment, maybe 'starting only with' (i almost already hear the marketing mumbo-jumbo) 5 cent for a match (come on ... its only 5 cents! what do you get for 5 cents these days ...) ...and then its down the beaten business track ....the larger map is 8 cents, better opponent on that map is 11 cent, want have the SS Division as reinforcement instead of Romanians Hilfstruppen too its 15 cent... you get the idea)
Well, eSim in its niche of the niches will still sell its dongles as promised,
but what will do Slitherine in half a jiffy (after they bought Battlefront ;) ...and some more :o)?
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
1: Why is there no demo?
I can't speak for other developers. For us, the demo version that we released about four months prior to the original game release was both boon and bane. It helped us to create awareness, which was the whole point of it, but it also created a massive demand for tech support that we could manage only with quite a bit of struggle. If I remember it correctly (memory is fading...) we even had to remake the demo because in the four months leading up to the first game release some substantial changes were added where we felt that the original demo was no longer representative of the original.
It also may be taken as a great compliment if years after the release you still get comments of the kind "The demo was so cool, I have played it for more than a year now" - until you realize that you just lost a sale in exchange for a warm and fuzzy feeling.
In short, you want a demo that is representative of the full game without being so good that people play it rather than actually buying the game. Releasing demo creates a substantial burden in tech support. And demo versions take a life of their own as they are being mirrored on other game sites and eventually start percolating through the internet (maybe even into the "WayBackMachine" and other internet archives) so that people might play a demo that is long obsolete (and then curse you because it either looks dated or won't play properly because it IS dated and won't work on an operating system that wasn't even on the market at the time when the demo was originally released.
These nuisances aside, the decision to use the CodeMeter USB stick as an external decryption device requires that USB sticks be mailed to a (prospective) customer. That is very costly and time consuming, and therefore not practical. The alternative was offered by two volunteers of the Steel Beasts community - to buy multiple licenses, and to configure their home PC as a license server to allow people to connect to them and use these PCs as a source for their license. This incurs a very real and substantial burden on those volunteers, especially with respect to their spare time, and I think it would be neither grateful nor reasonable of eSim Games to expect them to extend their offer forever.
So, in order to relieve the pressure on these volunteers we decided that there should be a demo version for those who felt that they would likely buy it, but who weren't 100% confident. For those who are "pretty confident" but who still want to limit their risk, the four month license has been invented. Regular play can either be done with a $40.- per year subscription or with the established model of buying a permanent license and eventually also following upgrades.
Also, short term licenses may be useful for ad-hoc LAN parties or the kids coming over for the holidays. I'm sure, as always our customers will be more imaginative with license options than we are when inventing this stuff.
So it seems to me that eSim Games just made a cost v. benefit decision on this. Releasing a demo was just too costly and required too much work to maintain and support, when compared to the uncertainty of revenue generated directly due to exposure to the demo. That's fair enough, but that being said, other small developers have managed to release a complex game, while also producing a demo to showcase it. None of them developed a time limited digital license approach to sales. So clearly, there were and are other options.
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
2: Is this a nefarious scheme to establish Pay Per Play?
No. Even if you fear a "dangerous precedent" here, the precedent has been set by much bigger corporations with vastly more customers that we will ever manage to win (Adobe, Microsoft, Blizzard). Even if you argue that there is no server farm that must be paid for like for an MMO game - I would point out that only a negligible fraction of World of Warcraft's obscene monthly cash flow is spent on the network infrastructure. The main use of funds (aside from snorting cocaine with $100 bills) is spent on generating new quests and maintaining the whole world (like, saving the unstable virtual economy). Also, to finance ongoing software development for eventual updates.
In that respect, Steel Beasts is quote comparable to the extent that there, too, is a continuous ongoing development. Less so for new content (levels, missions) - but still for new vehicles, maps, updating the render engine, adapting to the latest Windows version, and above all, fixing and improving things that the user may not notice but which is arguably VASTLY more important than the addition of crew stations to the M1A2SEP.
The CodeMeter stick based permanent licenses will stay. We have no inclination to discontinue this option.
I don't really feel like I need to address this point. I certainly never accused eSim Games of pursuing a "nefarious" course of action, or doing anything to purposely harm potential customers. In fact, I specifically stated to the contrary. I'm not really sure where this impression came from. Perhaps you should ask your fans at Simhq?
Regardless of what you say, I still don't see a comparison between SBPro and a subscription based service like any of the MMOs that are all the rage. As far as I know, SBPro is the first "game" of its kind to offer a license that is actually limited by time.
Otherwise, while I don't particularly care for the codemeter stick, I don't particularly dislike it either. I'd prefer that I did not need to keep an eye on it whenever I change computers or relocate, and I'd prefer not having to plug it in or take up a USB port, but other than that, its pretty benign.
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
3: If eSim Games isn't evil incarnate, then why add this madness to begin with?
Partly answered in #1. The main reason however was the loss risk. Some people lose their sticks. Usually its negligence, sometimes it's bad luck (like a home consumed by a raging inferno), "life", maybe even theft. An in those cases we cannot help the customer. If a CM stick stops working, mail it in for an unlimited warranty. If you damaged it, you have to pay for the stick but at least getting back the license is free.
With a time based license that is tied to the actual hardware of the PC/notebook, at least "normal everyday negligence" as the probably most common cause to losses is out of the equation (those who even forget their desktop PCs while traveling by bus are, I suppose, beyond help).
It's still not entirely without risk, I'm the first to admit it: You may be unaware of the thunderstorm outside because of the thunderstorm of virtual artillery in Steel Beasts, but lightning may strike and ruin your PC along with the recently bought Steel Beasts license. Statistically you may be losing 50% of the rental period here. But that's still cheaper than replacing a damaged CM stick even under unfavorable assumptions. Eventual remaining play time of a license after buying a new computer can be used up by configuring the old PC as a license server (we will assist you in setting things up).
4: You still want to make more money at my expense, don't you?
We're no better people than other heartless capitalists, but this morning I calculated again how much more we're going to earn from a $40.- rental scheme over a $115.- initial purchase together with the to be expected upgrades of the future. Under the assumption of a moderate price increase of upgrades ($25.- in winter 2014, $30.- in summer 2016 and in winter 2017, and $40.- in summer 2019) and assuming that each of the upgrades you consider it worth the pay, it's $240.- for the stick vs $280.- for the evil rental scheme. That's a whopping $40.- in six years, assuming that you take no breaks in your play. If you do, it might even be permanently cheaper since with the rental there will be no license upgrade fees.
In short, I think that our offer is unsuitable to start a big debate about how software rental might ruin everything. We just try to improve our customer service by tailoring an alternative offer to a different type of user. I invite you to denounce me once that eSim Games discontinues the CodeMeter stick. Until then, maybe this isn't quite so bad after all.
;)
So which is it? An attempt to aid customers from having to repurchase the software when and if they lose their codemeter, or an attempt to generate income? You first seem to suggest its the former, and then go on to explain the latter. Also, why do you insist on couching this discussion in terms of something "evil?" I have gone out of my way to argue that there is no "evil" intent here, but that the end result may be detrimental to consumers.
Frankly, I don't care what Microsoft or EA or Ubisoft does...I don't really play their games all that much. I'm more concerned with what guys like eSim Games, DCS, matrix/Slitherine, Battlefront, etc. do...and whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, they are watching what other similarly situated developers are doing and can be influenced. In this case, I hope they are not.
Anyway, I'm glad you dropped by, and I hope you'll continue to stay and provide updates and information to our community.
Quote from: MikeGER on July 10, 2013, 01:24:04 PM
if you can sell a licence for a month for $10, why not adding an additional shorter time period and 'selling' a licences for maybe 3 days for $0 (and limit the toys that are available for owner of those 3-day licences).
Believe it or not, we too have to pay for every license that we issue, and while $5.- for a week would at least make us not lose money, $10.- for a full month sounds like a better deal to me, simply because SB Pro PE is a rather complex simulation with a lot to learn - something that a single weekend may not be sufficient (not everybody is a student, or jobless; a week-long license will in reality collapse to a few hour during the week at best, and maybe two half days or so during a weekend - we all have life and family who interfere with our gaming habits).
Maybe I am leading the wrong discussion in the first place, actually. Until recently there was NO DEMO except for what two volunteers offered, at $100.- to try it out forever. Now there will be one, at a tenth of the cost, for a full month. Surely you will agree that this is a vast improvement over what it was before?
Last but not least: If it doesn't cost anything, to most people it is worthless. By charging a relatively small sum you have an incentive not to drop it at the first moment of frustration, but to eventually try to figure out WHY things didn't work out. I still encourage everybody to learn as much as possible about Steel Beasts Pro before whipping out the wallet. To be honest, I am not the least interested in placating the woes of impulse buyers. We are a small team, and I cannot possibly address the questions of all the people who don't even care to read a tutorial text "because there's so much text in it". Such a complaint will raise no sympathy with me.
Steel Beasts Professional is a learning tool first and foremost. Yes, one can also have a lot of fun with it, but training and education are its primary mission objectives. The whole software has been designed to fit that purpose. I don't want to come across as arrogant here, these are simply the facts. In the past we chose a price above $100.- also as a deterrence against casual buyers who would have no clue about what to expect.
What some of you recognize as a severe case of fanboi fever is actually the result of careful selection of our customers. They all checked out SB Pro carefully before making a buying decision, and because they got exactly what they expected from it (or else they wouldn't have spent so much money on "a game"), the overall customer satisfaction level is at an extraordinary high. Offering SB Pro PE for at little s $10.- is actually a risk that we are taking, and I hope that in the end it'll work out. There's only one way to find out however.
QuoteSsnake if you take a look at the (war)game producing industry, and had followed the sneaking changes of how things drift over time, you could understand the worries of an old Grognardhead who had played Kampfgruppe on a C64.
While I was too poor to own a C64 as a kid, don't underestimate my knowledge in this area. My memories go back almost as long as that one, "The Perfect General" for Amiga being an example. ;)
I think there simply is a bit of lack of understanding about this recent move of ours. We simply come from different directions, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't match course eventually. ;)
Your examples of micro payments are what wouldn't work in Steel Beasts, ever, and what we would therefore not even attempt doing. It reminds me of some other argument in this thread that we should do it like "Cliffs of Dover" and release a castrated game where people could buy extra vehicles as DLC. It has always been eSim Games' product policy that we do not modularize, that we do not sell our software with a "salami strategy", that we do not create dependency on some game server infrastructure.
Steel Beasts isn't about flying and dogfights. Steel Beasts isn't about sending your Pixeltruppen at operational scale against faceless computer hordes. Steel Beasts is close enough to a first person shooter without actually being one, it's also a real-time strategy game if you want (except that there's no base building, no resource management except maybe ammunition and availability of artillery fire support), there are no Zerg rushes of a more or less incompetent "A.I."
Steel Beasts is what a dozen armies worldwide use to train and educate their officer cadets in tactics (or upcoming staff officers in operations), and what they use, if combined with suitable hardware (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPT8TQ50b40&feature=c4-overview&list=UUki7jJUS9p7msfULjDVdJ4Q), for armored fighting vehicles crew training.
I cannot help you about your fears about what
other game companies may be doing. I can only speak for eSim Games, and that we do not have a hidden agenda, as much as some people seem to want to find one.
What I can say is that traditional computer wargames in general are no lucrative business, which gives your concerns about the future of wargames very little leverage over developers. The sad reality is, in computer game development money talks. If there i no serious money to be made, you're stuck with academia (Hi, James!) and wargame enthusiasts making wargames for other wargame enthusiasts. Laudable, sometimes even marvellous efforts (War in the East), but nothing that will change the fundamental conditions.
I don't want eSim Games to be confined to a very narrow niche of a few armor connoisseurs. There's a lot of interesting stuff to be discovered in the world of chaotic, real-time combined arms combat, and offering these new time-based licenses is (just) one element to break established habits. Let's just see what will come from it. Not doing anything would be the safe thing, but I haven't become an entrepreneur because I avoid risks at all costs. :)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 10, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
I don't really feel like I need to address this point. I certainly never accused eSim Games of pursuing a "nefarious" course of action, or doing anything to purposely harm potential customers. In fact, I specifically stated to the contrary. I'm not really sure where this impression came from. Perhaps you should ask your fans at Simhq?
What can I say. You were alarmist in your first post, a bit confrontative in style, unfazed by arguments from the other side. That's fine, everybody has his right to an opinion no matter how one-sided it may be. I'd like to point out however that you reported in depth about the reactions from others at the SimHQ thread, but conveniently left out any of the arguments that I brought forward.
I don't want to say with it that you're doing this on purpose, but I daresay that there is a noticeable bias in at least your argumentation, if not perception of what was said in the discussion. The fact that you dismiss others' opinions as irrelevant fanboi chatter speaks for itself. Also, your next statement:
Quote from: Jarhead0331Regardless of what you say, I still don't see a comparison between SBPro and a subscription based service like any of the MMOs
In other words, if that's your intent or not, you signal that an attempt to discuss the matter with you is futile. You don't want to accept the argument that software maintenance may become an important issue if a software is being worked on for decades and that users must pay for it in order to make the whole concept work out. You seem to ignore the fact that the new option is something offered
in addition to something with which you apparently have had no problem (and still don't, per your own words), because somehow it's important to discuss it on grounds of The Principle. I get it, you don't like time-limited license ... and you don't have to, because you can still use your CodeMeter stick now, and in years to come.
Quote from: Jarhead0331So which is it? An attempt to aid customers from having to repurchase the software when and if they lose their codemeter, or an attempt to generate income?
If it was an attempt to exploit the unsuspecting masses, I guess that the math of my example speaks for itself. I am either the customer-oriented idealist that I claim to be, or incompetent as a capitalist. If this isn't clear enough already:
$40.- more in six years of use (under the assumption that it will be a non-stop use of the subscription) is a profit margin that I do not deem worthy of a serious debate. Who knows what will be in six years?
For the foreseeable future the subscription offer is a price reduction for the vast majority of players except for those who already own a CodeMeter stick, or who firmly plan to play our game for the next ten years. Either way: Be my guest!
Quote from: Jarhead0331Frankly, I don't care what Microsoft or EA or Ubisoft do ... I'm more concerned with what guys like eSim Games, DCS, matrix/Slitherine, Battlefront, etc. do...and whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, they are watching what other similarly situated developers are doing and can be influenced.
Again, I cannot speak for what other game developers think or may do. I can only speak about what we do, and what our intention is behind our actions. I think that
the facts speak for themselves. Also, eSim Games has been doing well in the past eight years with the CodeMeter stick. How many other game developers in your list above have followed our example? Woudn't that suggest that what we're doing is relevant only for our business model, and not for them?
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 06:29:46 PM
What can I say. You were alarmist in your first post, a bit confrontative in style, unfazed by arguments from the other side. That's fine, everybody has his right to an opinion no matter how one-sided it may be. I'd like to point out however that you reported in depth about the reactions from others at the SimHQ thread, but conveniently left out any of the arguments that I brought forward.
That is not fair. I directed people in this forum to the thread at simhq by posting a link. You make it sound like I was attempting to conceal your counterpoints. That simply is not true. Your responses are rather lengthy. Must I summarize them, or reprint them in order for you to be convinced that I do not have a hidden agenda against you? Additionally, there was nothing bellicose or confrontational in my initial post. When I'm wrong, or off the mark, I admit it. Here, I just don't see it. I wasn't the one calling people names...your supporters were, and it was them who aggressively rushed to your defense, when no defense was necessary, because there was no attack.
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 06:29:46 PM
In other words, if that's your intent or not, you signal that an attempt to discuss the matter with you is futile. You don't want to accept the argument that software maintenance may become an important issue if a software is being worked on for decades and that users must pay for it in order to make the whole concept work out. You seem to ignore the fact that the new option is something offered in addition to something with which you apparently have had no problem (and still don't, per your own words), because somehow it's important to discuss it on grounds of The Principle. I get it, you don't like time-limited license ... and you don't have to, because you can still use your CodeMeter stick now, and in years to come.
Then I guess we're at an impasse, because you're doing exactly the same thing. Refusing to acknowledge that there may, just possibly, be some slight legitimacy to my concerns. You too do not want to accept my arguments, so isn't further discussion with you on this topic futile, as well? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
But one thing you say is very true, indeed...I do not like time-limited licenses. I will continue to use my Codemeter, but that is not my concern, is it?
Every developer, at least the good ones, continue to support their product. eSim Games does not hold any exclusive title as champion here. Its very true, eSim Games provides excellent support and customer service, now go pat yourself on the back. You also get paid well for your product. $115 is a lot of money for the average Joe...you should be supporting the product at that price. Plenty of other games out there have been supported for years, and the developers do not use a time-limited licensing approach. If they can do it, so can you. If you choose not too, thats ok too. Oh, and lets face it, eSim Games does not generate the majority of its revenue off of the commercial/recreational gamer. It makes most of its sales through government and professional licensing, no?
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 06:29:46 PM
If it was an attempt to exploit the unsuspecting masses, I guess that the math of my example speaks for itself. I am either the customer-oriented idealist that I claim to be, or incompetent as a capitalist. If this isn't clear enough already:
So long as you insist on speaking in hyperbole, your arguments will continue to be unpersuasive. Drop it all ready. Despite the fact that I don't think you're involved in a grand conspiracy to trick the masses, my concerns, which are logical and rational, based upon the direction the industry is taking, are completely legitimate.
Once again, you're a good guy and a solid developer...but I still believe eSim Games likely makes the majority of its profit off of government licensing and contracts. What are we really talking about, from a financial perspective, when it comes to your private civilian license holders?
Quote from: Ssnake on July 10, 2013, 06:29:46 PM
Again, I cannot speak for what other game developers think or may do. I can only speak about what we do, and what our intention is behind our actions.
Yes, I know...you've said this a few times before. But I believe that when we take certain actions, we should think about how they may influence others, or what wider ramifications they may have. For instance, I'm a lawyer...I think about whether to make certain arguments because I try to anticipate the future of the case. I also try to avoid making an argument that, down the road, may result in a negative precedent for other clients in future similar cases. You have to take some responsibility for the ripples your own actions may ultimately make in your own little pond...
Pay as you go or pay for a demo? Either way I don't like it! Why are wargaming companies mainly the ones with bad bad license/DRM systems? We've seen this with Storm Eagle, BattleFront and now eSim Games. Then when you have problems with these License/DRM systems, you have to wait & treat you like crooks!
I say, just SAY NO, to this crap! They should just sell their games on Steam and forget the hassle & support headaches.
I don't know.
eSim is branding themselves as a premium COTS wargame company. I get that.
Opinions vary on demos. Generally demos fall into one of two types: they either give you a short chunk of the entire game engine (susceptible to hacking) or they give you a part of the game (which, if it isn't designed properly, will give a negative experience of the game and turn away a sale).
That eSim wants to sell a short-term full-game experience in order to keep out the riff-raff and give people an incentive to dig into their admittedly complex and steep learning curve of a game - I say that's cool.
Steel Beasts Pro isn't for everyone and their strategy is doubling down on that branding decision.
I don't think this portends a trend for the gaming industry as a whole. What works for a $120 tank sim isn't going to work for a $40 Battle Academy.
I think I get it. I've got a gaming laptop and it's on my lap right now. The chances of me damaging a USB connected device are something I try to minimize, but I value the portability of my laptop above being tethered to a desk. So the decision to "rent" the game for a period of time - as opposed to buying it and messing up the USB stick - are real for me. I can and do sometimes wear stuff out because it bangs into an armrest. Or the dog steps on it competing with the laptop for attention (Max was nicknamed the Maxtop for a reason).
This is innovation in the marketplace. SBP is a niche game in a niche market. I'm OK with that - especially after Ssnake came over here to explain things.
First off, Ssnake thank you for stopping by and explaining your side.
Next I want to reiterate what I believe Jarhead said, which is that neither of us (nor the community at large I believe) thinks eSim is doing something evil or trying to make extra money through some scheme.
My concern, and Jarhead's, is the precedent it MIGHT set.
I understand that as a business you have to worry about your bottom line first and foremost and I appreciate that stance. It doesn't make me happier about the new pricing policy, but I do empathize and understand your point of view. I hope you realize that I'm not your enemy here. In fact, I'm a customer who will continue to support eSims through purchases of upgrades to my USB stick.
It's funny, but I got to thinking about this last night before I read the responses to this thread and it occurred to me that, in the case of SB:Pro the rental pricing almost does make sense. Given the high initial investment and then paid upgrades every few years, the delta between ownership and renting after many years is pretty small.
At any rate, I think of this sort of like buying a car vs. leasing a car. Both are appropriate for some drivers. What worries me, though, is the day when Ford releases a car but you simply can't buy it. You have to lease it, period. That's what we're talking about here really.
This is just one small thing, but other developers will take notice of eSim's success or failure with this new pricing concept. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.
The game is $25 off for a limited time, too! http://www.esimgames.com/purchase.htm
Support, however, goes to Win 7 and single-core processors. After that it's not clear how things will run on your system.
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 08:44:50 PM
First off, Ssnake thank you for stopping by and explaining your side.
Next I want to reiterate what I believe Jarhead said, which is that neither of us (nor the community at large I believe) thinks eSim is doing something evil or trying to make extra money through some scheme.
My concern, and Jarhead's, is the precedent it MIGHT set.
I understand that as a business you have to worry about your bottom line first and foremost and I appreciate that stance. It doesn't make me happier about the new pricing policy, but I do empathize and understand your point of view. I hope you realize that I'm not your enemy here. In fact, I'm a customer who will continue to support eSims through purchases of upgrades to my USB stick.
It's funny, but I got to thinking about this last night before I read the responses to this thread and it occurred to me that, in the case of SB:Pro the rental pricing almost does make sense. Given the high initial investment and then paid upgrades every few years, the delta between ownership and renting after many years is pretty small.
At any rate, I think of this sort of like buying a car vs. leasing a car. Both are appropriate for some drivers. What worries me, though, is the day when Ford releases a car but you simply can't buy it. You have to lease it, period. That's what we're talking about here really.
This is just one small thing, but other developers will take notice of eSim's success or failure with this new pricing concept. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.
Quoted for truth...all of it.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 10, 2013, 08:45:21 PM
The game is $25 off for a limited time, too! http://www.esimgames.com/purchase.htm
Support, however, goes to Win 7 and single-core processors. After that it's not clear how things will run on your system.
When version 3.0 is released shortly, it will cost $115.....therefore, looks like the cost for the newest game will be the same whether you buy now ($75 + $40 upgrade price) or in a couple of weeks when it is out ($115).
Normally I wouldn't do this to you guys, but....
This video is simply great. It's like a movie. Last night I actually backed up and watched the whole 1-5 episodes and it's an amazing experience. It's the reason why I play computer games.
Steel Beasts is a pretty amazing piece of software.
edit: fixed your video for you; don't shoot me
So how hard is it to really play this sim? Always have been intrigued but intimidated. Do you have to be a super-tanker to play and enjoy it?
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on July 10, 2013, 08:59:10 PMDo you have to be a super-tanker
nah - one of me is enough! ;)
I find it hard, but I'm more of a pilot-type than ground type. Still, the challenge is part of the fun.
I finally sat down and no-shit read the manual the last few days and now I'm working through the tutorials. The payoff seems amazing.
They recently added the T-72 in the last upgrade. From what I understand 3.0 is going to have all sorts of new stuff. Honestly it's like the BMS of ground sims. But it's not nearly as hard to learn as BMS. Most of my problems stem from just not understanding how to effectively do ground stuff, utilize the terrain, things like that.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on July 10, 2013, 08:59:10 PM
So how hard is it to really play this sim? Always have been intrigued but intimidated. Do you have to be a super-tanker to play and enjoy it?
That's very cool, but I would need some serious help in figuring out how to play that game competently.
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 09:14:50 PM
I find it hard, but I'm more of a pilot-type than ground type. Still, the challenge is part of the fun.
I finally sat down and no-shit read the manual the last few days and now I'm working through the tutorials. The payoff seems amazing.
They recently added the T-72 in the last upgrade. From what I understand 3.0 is going to have all sorts of new stuff. Honestly it's like the BMS of ground sims. But it's not nearly as hard to learn as BMS. Most of my problems stem from just not understanding how to effectively do ground stuff, utilize the terrain, things like that.
Thanks for the feedback......Is everything easily controlled through the keyboard or is this the type of game you need some kind of controller unit to play? If so, what is the typical recommended setup?
I use keyboard and mouse, and I think that's the preferred set up. Frankly, I can't gun for crap with keyboard/mouse. I've been thinking that a gamepad might really be more effective, but I haven't tried it.
I might just need more practice with the controls. What I really want to do is to figure out how to play strictly from the commander's seat and allow my AI gunner to do all the shooting. I know that must be possible, but I haven't figured out how to do it effectively.
Not sure if I really answered your question there...
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 10:03:28 PM
I use keyboard and mouse, and I think that's the preferred set up. Frankly, I can't gun for crap with keyboard/mouse.
Hmmm.
I use a Razer mouse capable of custom dpi settings. I can crank it up to 5600 dpi for rapid movement and down as far as I want for precision stuff. Maybe something like that could help you?
Well, we seem to have some SimHQ experts reading this thread now. Hopefully a few of them will stick around and give us some pointers.
I'm not an SME at Steel Beasts. The game kicks my ass and I barely grasp how to play somewhat effectively.
I personally feel that SB is worth the purchase price, but I also feel that most high-end simulators are underpriced for what they offer. I got DCS:A-10 for $5 on Steam and that is just obscene in my opinion. Fortunately my repeated full-price purchases of various Lock-on/Flaming Cliffs iterations might have offset that somewhat.
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 10:14:40 PMI also feel that most high-end simulators are underpriced for what they offer.
for those of you not in the know, Toonces is in a pretty good position to compare sims to reality:
http://grogheads.com/?p=662
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 09:14:50 PM
I find it hard, but I'm more of a pilot-type than ground type. Still, the challenge is part of the fun.
I finally sat down and no-shit read the manual the last few days and now I'm working through the tutorials. The payoff seems amazing.
They recently added the T-72 in the last upgrade. From what I understand 3.0 is going to have all sorts of new stuff. Honestly it's like the BMS of ground sims. But it's not nearly as hard to learn as BMS. Most of my problems stem from just not understanding how to effectively do ground stuff, utilize the terrain, things like that.
Quoted for truth once again. :)
The tactical application of your assets is what makes the sim hard. The controls of the tank itself are not that hard to learn.
I still have not dared going online. While I do think this is where the magic is, many players have military experience in the Armor side of things it seems, and I dont feel comfortable ruining their game experience with my noobness. :D
Furthermore I wish to thank Ssnake for hopping over and explaining his viewpoints and I want to thank everyone for keeping it a professional and respectful discussion.
I understand that much of the debate isn't about us, but what it might others to do. I think that much of what can be done depends on the technological infrastructure. We adopted the CodeMeter stick because it offers a high degree of flexibilty with respect to licensing models. The "lease vs buy" argument that some brought forward is a nice analogy, except that our model is a much better deal than leasing - because you don't have to pay your SB Pro leasing rates if you decide to take a pause. Try that with a car dealer. ;)
As far as SB Pro and gaming online is concerned, I say that going multiplayer is the by far most effective and fun way to learn, if you are an observant guy who stays for the after action review. Because then you can see what the other players did in their supporting roles (remember, it is team effort ... and many games are actually played cooperatively - as humans vs. the computer). It is here where you can compare what the reported situation was (vs. the REAL situation, if you toggle the corresponding map overlay switch, which can sometimes be a massive difference (and they say that you can't hide a tank...).
Not going online because you fear that your skills are inadequate is a sure way to perpetuate that problem. It is much better to say Hello and ask for directions, because that's what the other players over at SteelBeasts.com will do. SB.com also has this neat calendar function with upcoming multiplayer events which you can use to coordinate your play times.
I agree with the assessment that learning the individual tank is much easier than to fly, say, the A-10 or other jets in recently released flight simulations. The real challenge is what to do with it once that you are confronted with the tactical challenges of a skirmish or even a bigger battle. Again, being able to talk to team mates during play and ask for advice, or to coordinate your movement with that of your friends to the left and to the right simply by talking to them makes it both easier, and more conducive to learning.
:)
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 10:03:28 PM
I use keyboard and mouse, and I think that's the preferred set up. Frankly, I can't gun for crap with keyboard/mouse. I've been thinking that a gamepad might really be more effective, but I haven't tried it.
I might just need more practice with the controls. What I really want to do is to figure out how to play strictly from the commander's seat and allow my AI gunner to do all the shooting. I know that must be possible, but I haven't figured out how to do it effectively.
Not sure if I really answered your question there...
Thanks....
FWIW - this is now a big discussion in other software markets, too
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/technology/personaltech/photoshop-cc-turns-software-into-a-monthly-rental.html
and
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/photoshops-new-rental-program-and-the-outrage-factor/
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2013, 06:43:37 AM
FWIW - this is now a big discussion in other software markets, too
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/technology/personaltech/photoshop-cc-turns-software-into-a-monthly-rental.html
and
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/photoshops-new-rental-program-and-the-outrage-factor/
Thank you...buckle up fellas'. May be time to find a new hobby.
Chiming in as one of the SB fanboys, on learning the sim.
In terms of keypresses, it's a lot easier than, say, learning Falcon 4 or DCS.
Most of the interface complexity is in the gunnery. I can't stress that enough. Gunnery is complex in the way that a Falcon 4 or DCS radar system is complex. (On its accuracy - I'm not a tanker, but I've been playing Steel Beasts for years; when I got a chance to sit in the gunner's seat of an M-1 training simulator, I found that while I didn't know where any of the switches were, I knew what they did, due to SB.)
You don't need to be a good gunner. Steel Beasts works at 4 different levels in single player. You need to understand the lower ones to do the higher ones well, but you don't need to be an expert.
Gunner - focussed on operating the big cannon.
Tank Commander - maneuver your tank, give firing orders to the gunner. You need to understand the capabilities and limitations of the cannon in order to employ the tank effectively, but you don't need to be a master gunner.
Platoon Leader: From your turret-top, maneuver your platoon, either en masse or in sections. You'll want to start learning about moving forces on the 2D map and calling for artillery fire.
Company Commander: You may be in a turret top, but now a lot of your time is spent on the 2D map, coordinating forces and raining fires on the enemy.
These are 4 pretty distinct challenges. Which one you prefer is up to you; but SB supports all of them well.
I've attached a handout that I give to my students covering the basics of tank commander & platoon commander controls. I tell them to leave the gunner alone! :)
Quote from: Toonces on July 10, 2013, 10:03:28 PM
I use keyboard and mouse, and I think that's the preferred set up. Frankly, I can't gun for crap with keyboard/mouse. I've been thinking that a gamepad might really be more effective, but I haven't tried it.
I might just need more practice with the controls. What I really want to do is to figure out how to play strictly from the commander's seat and allow my AI gunner to do all the shooting. I know that must be possible, but I haven't figured out how to do it effectively.
Step 1: Trust your gunner. :) The gunner has two magical qualities that nearly every human player lacks: The gunner never fires on destroyed targets, and the gunner never calls out to shoot at friendlies.
Therefore, if your gunner shouts out "Tank!" or "PC!", hit Shift-Space (Fire and Adjust) and let the gunner get on with it. 95% of the time, this means the target's about to eat metal. On a good day, your AI gunner is outstanding.
Step 2: Control the gunner:
In order of importance:
a) Learn Space for "Fire!" and Shift-Space for "Fire and Adjust!"
b) Learn to hit Insert to kill tanks, Delete to kill light armor, and use M to toggle between main gun and the coaxial machine gun (look in the upper right corner of the screen to see what
c) Learn Shift-(arrow) to tell the gunner to scan front/left/right
The gunner is generally pretty good at picking up targets
d) Learn the override controls for your chosen tank
M1: Hold P or middlemouse-button and move the mouse to slew the cannon
Leopard: Learn to use the periscope and thermal sight - a tad more complex but a really powerful capability (presumably coming for the M1A2 in v3!)
Step 3: Understand the AI gunner's limitations.
In single-player, all of your AI gunners has a skill set by your highest gunnery score. Getting a score of 80 or higher will make your life easier as the TC.
In multi-player, all AI gunners have a score of 80.
* Your point of view, as the TC, is higher than the gunner's. You can see more. Your thermal sight, on top of the turret, can see more than the gunner can. Check your F2 view to see the gunner's point of view.
* The AI gunner can get confused by fleeting contacts. You, the human, can understand that the target is mocing into and out of view among the trees. The gunner sometimes keeps acquiring and dropping the contact. This is when it may be time for you to drop briefly into the gunner's seat and take the shot - or to be patient.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2013, 06:43:37 AM
FWIW - this is now a big discussion in other software markets, too
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/technology/personaltech/photoshop-cc-turns-software-into-a-monthly-rental.html
and
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/photoshops-new-rental-program-and-the-outrage-factor/
My latest copy of MS Office offered me the choice to pony up some short money for a year or big money for a permanent copy. I elected to go with the one-year "lease" as it was cheaper in the short term. I know I'll owe it again in another six months or so but in the mean time it works and I use is daily.
Hey James, thank for that solid piece of info.
I guess its the classic situation of sounding pretty straightforward, yet challenging in practise. :) Especially when burning hot steel starts flying around you. *grin*
Like Ssnake said, perhaps I should come out of the shadows and actually jump on the TS channel more often. It's a vicious circle; not playing online out of being shy about your skills will not enable you to become better by guidance from those who will give it to you...
It's just that when I watch a YouTube video like Brave Rifles (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6C95BB70225FE48C) I get excited and humble at the same time. :)
Quote from: James Sterrett on July 11, 2013, 09:06:48 AM
Step 2: Control the gunner:
In order of importance:
a) Learn Space for "Fire!" and Shift-Space for "Fire and Adjust!"
b) Learn to hit Insert to kill tanks, Delete to kill light armor, and use M to toggle between main gun and the coaxial machine gun (look in the upper right corner of the screen to see what
c) Learn Shift-(arrow) to tell the gunner to scan front/left/right
The gunner is generally pretty good at picking up targets
d) Learn the override controls for your chosen tank
M1: Hold P or middlemouse-button and move the mouse to slew the cannon
Leopard: Learn to use the periscope and thermal sight - a tad more complex but a really powerful capability (presumably coming for the M1A2 in v3!)
All your advice is great. I have a Razer Naga with 12 programmable thumb buttons. It sounds like it would be the perfect mouse to use to re-map all those controls into a more concise (and faster) remap.
Honestly, I'd program the mouse for the gunner.
Gunnery takes place on a scale of seconds or less. That said, 1) I find the keys are mapped well for the gunner and 2) trying to press buttons on the mouse while tracking a target screws up my target tracking - so I *like* having the lase key (control) and the fire key (space) *not* on the mouse. (Track target, then hit control then space in rapid succession.)
Even in contact, the TC's often looking 5-10 seconds ahead. (Insert for sabot and Delete for HEAT rounds, for example, don't take effect until the gunner fires the currently loaded round; you're telling the loader what round to load *next*.)
There are times when the TC is very much in the moment, but usually that's trying to direct the driver to save the tank from imminent death.
The platoon leader and company commander are looking at longer and longer time horizons on most of their decisions. The company commander spends time being worried about how things happening now affect things 5, 10, or 30 minutes into in the future.
First off...this thread is why Grogheads is awesome. :)
I understand the trepidation people are feeling about the change in licensing, but I especially like this quote from Longblade: "What works for a $120 tank sim isn't going to work for a $40 Battle Academy. "
I have to admit, the price has kept me from even really looking into Steel Beasts, despite it being a game right up my alley. As a father of soon to be 2, and the sole bread winner I only have limited funds and even more limited...time. I can see myself paying $10 to try out Steel Beasts for a month, and if I could find a community to play with regularly I would probably pay the $40 for a year.
However, the subscription model is a 2 edged sword for eSim. Increased revenue from people who have been on the fence, but also once you start paying a subscription, you have more expectations of a company. Next year when that $40 comes up, if people do not see advancements, they may opt to not re-up.
i found this very interesting 8)
Now where we have the experts here, i would like to ask:
Even so it might not be using the sim as intended :-[
Is it possible for me to play this scenario above as SP alone and mostly directing the battle from the map ...maybe jump in a vehicle only to adjust its postion (hull down for a defend stance ...or is that not necessary cause of the AI?)
or generally use it as a
tactical wargame, where i solve a situation on a given battlefield using the mixed assets under my command as wisely as possible? Is fixed wing air support on call too, and is it affected by OPFOR battlefield low range AAA?
When is the 3.0 release date?
i think i will trade in eating one exotic dessert less (which i have come known for on the internet shortly) for a month SBPro 3.0 ;)
Quote from: MikeGER on July 11, 2013, 11:07:39 AM
Is it possible for me to play this scenario above as SP alone and mostly directing the battle from the map ...maybe jump in a vehicle only to adjust its postion (hull down for a defend stance ...or is that not necessary cause of the AI?)
or generally use it as a tactical wargame, where i solve a situation on a given battlefield using the mixed assets under my command as wisely as possible? Is fixed wing air support on call too, and is it affected by OPFOR battlefield low range AAA?
Mostly, yes.
You can play the entire game from the map. Your personal vehicle will suffer a loss of effectiveness if it needs the TC giving permission to fire, but you can get around that by sitting in vehicles without a cannon.
It works well at that level. Coordinating a combined arms breach is high adventure.
The Australian Army has run scenarios with an Australian brigade against an opposing force division -- all running off the map, on 3 computers.
Some rotary wing is present (Tigers, Hinds, and a few others I'm not recalling offhand - no Apaches), as is AAA (2S6M only if memory serves, plus everybody else throwing whatever they can bring to bear into the skies).
However, the fixed-wing tac air is currently limited (version 2) to a pair of 500 pound bombs magically appearing from the sky. I don't know if that is changing in version 3.
THX for the info James :)
... i don't need to see the plane doing the strafe run (that's what i have DCS world for)
looking forward for to the 3.0 release
DCS and eSim should do an joint venture ;) that would bring a hell of a simulation!
Quote from: LongBlade on July 10, 2013, 10:11:00 PM
Hmmm.
I use a Razer mouse capable of custom dpi settings. I can crank it up to 5600 dpi for rapid movement and down as far as I want for precision stuff. Maybe something like that could help you?
I picked up a pricey Razer gaming mouse awhile back. It was larger than I prefer, but that was manageable.
The big problem I had with it was that it moved much faster in the X axis than it did in the Y axis. It was unfuriating when I first used it. I had to manually adjust the Y axis sensitivity in the software but it never did feel right so I gave up in disgust and shelved it.
Also note that the software required me to create a login with an email address and always tried to connect to the web and log in whenever it started up. ::)
Sorry for the OT.. felt I needed to warn about my experience with a Razer mouse.
Quote from: Nefaro on July 11, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 10, 2013, 10:11:00 PM
Hmmm.
I use a Razer mouse capable of custom dpi settings. I can crank it up to 5600 dpi for rapid movement and down as far as I want for precision stuff. Maybe something like that could help you?
I picked up a pricey Razer gaming mouse awhile back. It was larger than I prefer, but that was manageable.
The big problem I had with it was that it moved much faster in the X axis than it did in the Y axis. It was unfuriating when I first used it. I had to manually adjust the Y axis sensitivity in the software but it never did feel right so I gave up in disgust and shelved it.
Also note that the software required me to create a login with an email address and always tried to connect to the web and log in whenever it started up. ::)
Which mouse?
Quote from: LongBlade on July 11, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on July 11, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 10, 2013, 10:11:00 PM
Hmmm.
I use a Razer mouse capable of custom dpi settings. I can crank it up to 5600 dpi for rapid movement and down as far as I want for precision stuff. Maybe something like that could help you?
I picked up a pricey Razer gaming mouse awhile back. It was larger than I prefer, but that was manageable.
The big problem I had with it was that it moved much faster in the X axis than it did in the Y axis. It was unfuriating when I first used it. I had to manually adjust the Y axis sensitivity in the software but it never did feel right so I gave up in disgust and shelved it.
Also note that the software required me to create a login with an email address and always tried to connect to the web and log in whenever it started up. ::)
Which mouse?
Don't recall.. it's boxed away in purgatory. IIRC it was ~$70 from Amazon.
Quote from: MikeGER on July 11, 2013, 12:22:31 PM
THX for the info James :)
... i don't need to see the plane doing the strafe run (that's what i have DCS world for)
looking forward for to the 3.0 release
DCS and eSim should do an joint venture ;) that would bring a hell of a simulation!
It would! :)
do we need to start a separate "how to play Steel Beasts" thread?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
do we need to start a separate "how to play Steel Beasts" thread?
Yes, and maybe a "How Will LB Afford Steel Beasts?" thread, too.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 11, 2013, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
do we need to start a separate "how to play Steel Beasts" thread?
Yes, and maybe a "How Will LB Afford Steel Beasts?" thread, too.
Me too.....I have avoided this game like the plague because of cost and dongle.....but I might finally be buckling......I need to stay strong.
Despite the DRM scheme, it's a helluva game. I've found it to be very much worth the price, but I'm into armor sims the way a lot of others here are into flight sims.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 11, 2013, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
do we need to start a separate "how to play Steel Beasts" thread?
Yes, and maybe a "How Will LB Afford Steel Beasts?" thread, too.
By using the rental plan to reduce costs? ;D
Quote from: James Sterrett on July 12, 2013, 09:35:25 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 11, 2013, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 11, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
do we need to start a separate "how to play Steel Beasts" thread?
Yes, and maybe a "How Will LB Afford Steel Beasts?" thread, too.
By using the rental plan to reduce costs? ;D
Or getting a higher paying job so you don't have to contribute to the demise of the hobby? Just sayin'... :-X