http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357352/Breaking-news-Canadian-town-center-wiped-freight-train-carrying-hundreds-tons-crude-oil-derails-explodes.html
Damn.
Wierd. How can "crude oil" explode? I could understand gasoline or diesel exploding, high vapor pressure, but crude? It should catch fire not explode as soon as there is a collision.
Yeah... something weird there. Crude will not 'Explode". Must have been other volatiles on other cars.
Holy crap. That's insane.
That's terrible. Sorry to hear it.
Lac Megantic is only a couple hours drive from where I grew up - pretty little town that I have gone through by train a number of times back when there was decent passenger rail service in Canada. It is terrible to see the devastation. Death toll is currently 5 but still 40 people missing. The rail cars were carrying light crude which is flammable and vapors will cause an explosion. The area is now considered a crime scene by the QPP.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/07/quebec-train-derailment-explosion-lac-megantic.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/07/quebec-train-derailment-explosion-lac-megantic.html)
http://www.cenovus.com/contractor/docs/CenovusMSDS_BakkenOil.pdf (http://www.cenovus.com/contractor/docs/CenovusMSDS_BakkenOil.pdf)
The photos are horrific. It's tragic. I've never been to Lac Meganitc, but the Province of Quebec is dotted with beautiful little towns that you just know are close knit. I did have the opportunity to spend a week in St. Georges about 10 years ago. The people I stayed with, and those I met while there, were all wonderful. My heart, thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Lac Megantic.
Quote from: Shelldrake on July 07, 2013, 03:47:15 PM
Lac Megantic is only a couple hours drive from where I grew up - pretty little town that I have gone through by train a number of times back when there was decent passenger rail service in Canada. It is terrible to see the devastation. Death toll is currently 5 but still 40 people missing. The rail cars were carrying light crude which is flammable and vapors will cause an explosion. The area is now considered a crime scene by the QPP.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/07/quebec-train-derailment-explosion-lac-megantic.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/07/quebec-train-derailment-explosion-lac-megantic.html)
http://www.cenovus.com/contractor/docs/CenovusMSDS_BakkenOil.pdf (http://www.cenovus.com/contractor/docs/CenovusMSDS_BakkenOil.pdf)
So the main "explosive" vapour is hydrogen sulfide gas it looks like. Benzene as well but very low concentrations.
It's a very sad situation.
bad times in Canada. :(
The explosive force is still too great to be from those light crude carrying cars. I am betting that there was either propane or natural gas in the equation.
Up to 13 confirmed dead, with lots still missing. Apparently they think that most, if not all of the missing, are actually dead. :(
Quote from: Centurion40 on July 09, 2013, 11:44:02 AM
Up to 13 confirmed dead, with lots still missing. Apparently they think that most, if not all of the missing, are actually dead. :(
What a shame. Reminds me of the disaster in West, TX.
Quote from: Centurion40 on July 09, 2013, 11:44:02 AM
Up to 13 confirmed dead, with lots still missing. Apparently they think that most, if not all of the missing, are actually dead. :(
I doubt that remains will ever be found for many of the missing, which will make it even harder for loved ones to cope with their loss.
This is an ominous development.
QuoteCanadian authorities have found evidence that a train that crashed in Lac-Megantic, Quebec, was tampered with, provincial police Capt. Michel Forget said Tuesday.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/world/americas/canada-runaway-train/index.html
Latest from CBC.
QuoteQuebec provincial police Insp. Michel Forget said a criminal investigation is now underway as officers continue to comb through the rubble and search for some 40 people who are missing.
Forget didn't provide much information on why a criminal investigation was warranted, but did say that investigators had "discovered elements" that supported such a probe.
Forget said officials don't think that the incident was caused by terrorism. He said criminal negligence was one possible avenue that officials are considering as the investigation unfolds.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/09/lac-megantic-quebec-train-explosion.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/09/lac-megantic-quebec-train-explosion.html)
its a very serious case and a horrible name for an inspector.
It's probably pronounced 'MEE-shell Foor-ZHAY'.
Just like in 'Hyacinth Boo-KAY'
A co-worker told me (how he knows, I have no idea- I also have no idea if any of this is actually true) that the company that operates the train received an exemption from Transport Canada, allowing them to run trains with only 1 engineer (a cost saving measure for the company). Apparently the standard regulation requires 2 engineers per train. When the explosion happened, the engineer was off the train, sleeping at a local motel. The train had 5 engines, one was left on in order to keep power to the brakes and other systems while the engineer rested. Apparently this is a common occurrence in this town, and something that really annoys the locals, especially during the summer months when people don't enjoy listening to a train engine running at night, while they are trying to sleep with their windows open.
While the engineer is sleeping, someone, somehow spots a fire on the train and calls the fire department. The (volunteer) fire department arrives and decides that, for safety, they need to stop the electricity running through the train from the engine. Someone climbs on-board and turns off the one running engine. This cuts power to the brakes, and the train starts to slowly roll. So the firefighters are trying to put out a fire on a slowly rolling train. Apparently the engineer is still in bed, asleep. As my co-worker understands the story, someone then jumps onto the burning train (either a firefighter or the now awake engineer), and starts engaging the hand brakes on the train cars. This action may, or may not have caused the derailment. Finally that the police investigation is looking into criminal negligence and the possibility that a disgruntled, sleepless local may have done something to the train.
The chief of the fire brigade that put out the engine fire said they left the train in the hands of a railroad official.
Meanwhile the railway company is saying the firemen should have awaken the sleeping engineer.
40 that sounds quite plausible. I guess we'll find out if it's true.
Latest report: the engineer failed to set the handbrakes...all 11 of them.
Quote...the engineer had told investigators that he set 11 handbrakes on the train before it broke away. "Our general feeling is now that is not true," Burkhardt said.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/world/americas/canada-runaway-train/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Yeah, CBC is basically reporting the same thing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/10/lac-megantic-quebec-train-explosion-investigation.html
Quote
The engineer in charge of the train that derailed and exploded in Lac-Mégantic is "under police control," according to the head of the rail company.
At an impromptu news conference, Ed Burkhardt, the president of Railworld Inc., remained unflappable as he addressed a flurry of reporters who crowded around him.
He said the engineer has been suspended without pay.
"The fact is he's under the police control. He's not, as I understand, in jail, but the police have talked about prosecuting him," Burkhardt said.
"I don't think he'll be back working with us," he told reporters shortly after he arrived in the town this afternoon.
"It was our employee that was responsible for setting the brakes on the train ... That employee is under investigation and is not working."
The train was parked by the engineer late Friday night, according to the Transportation Safety Board of Canada which is investigating the incident.
The engineer then left the train and went to sleep at a nearby hotel. A short time later, a fire was reported on the train and another railway employee was brought in, according to the TSB. After firefighters and the rail worker had left the scene, the train started to roll downhill, derailed and exploded in the centre of Lac-Mégantic .
...shouldn't brakes on such a vehicle been constructed in a way that the fail-safe mode is 'brake' and not 'roll'?
(so you need power, hydraulic- or air- pressure, whatever ....to keep the brake lifted, if the power is lost, brake clamps) no need to run a noisy engine so.
when i heard about the criminal investigation on our TV news i thought some local juvenile tampered with the unattended train... and it got out of control, and they jumped off
Nasa Sat pic
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fshawglobalnews.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F07%2Flacmegantic_vir_2013185_187.jpg&hash=ac46690dfba90bebbbf3c77915c98fa71b6e2fca) :o
I thought that the Westinghouse Vacuum Brake system was more-or-less used on railways the world over because its an almost fail-safe system. Once the vacuum is compromised the brakes automatically apply.
Before and after shots. Good lord.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F07%2Fna0709_beforeandafter_940_jr.jpg%3Fw%3D940%26amp%3Bh%3D1537&hash=6f964792de353013d693d3f4da31410473e9948d)
^ Wow I had not seen it in the perspective before. Just wow.
:o The railcars are right on top of that oft mentioned nightclub!
Even if they didn't explode right away those tankers would have been like 72 steamrollers stomping that place flat.
Not good.
My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
Questions are being raised about the overall safety of the tank car design.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/quebec-oil-train-derailment-puts-tank-car-in-spotlight-dot-111-is-workhorse-of-the-rails/2013/07/09/617cce7e-e8d0-11e2-818e-aa29e855f3ab_story.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT-111_tank_car
Quote from: mirth on July 10, 2013, 06:09:19 PM
Questions are being raised about the overall safety of the tank car design.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/quebec-oil-train-derailment-puts-tank-car-in-spotlight-dot-111-is-workhorse-of-the-rails/2013/07/09/617cce7e-e8d0-11e2-818e-aa29e855f3ab_story.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT-111_tank_car
OK, it's been known since '91 that there were problems with the cars.
It looks like changes were being implemented in 2011. Not enough time to do much with all the rolling stock out there, I guess :/
From the following article:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/354037
QuoteRail companies have resisted the proposed rules, asking that they be applied only to new tanker cars. They want existing tanker cars to be exempt.
In 2011, the Association of American Railroads estimated the cost of upgrading existing tanker cars at over $1 billion U.S. dollars.
Cleanup costs from derailments occurring between 2004 and 2008 cost nearly $63 billion, the group said.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 10, 2013, 02:22:04 PM
Latest report: the engineer failed to set the handbrakes...all 11 of them.
Quote...the engineer had told investigators that he set 11 handbrakes on the train before it broke away. "Our general feeling is now that is not true," Burkhardt said.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/world/americas/canada-runaway-train/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Oy vey.
I've kinda been wondering if the human element wasn't a major factor, but that level of negligence is just staggering.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on July 10, 2013, 04:31:38 PM
^ Wow I had not seen it in the perspective before. Just wow.
+2
Reading about the destruction is one thing (and bad enough). Actually seeing it like that, though...Jesus.
Just found someone's video of the fire as it was raging after the explosion, pretty crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRb3JHsiqfA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRb3JHsiqfA)
It's almost as if a volcanic caldera opened up in the middle of town. Those poor, poor folks at the nightclub in the middle of that... I hope it was over soon for them. There would seem to be little else to hope for in their case. :(
Yeah, it sounds like the best we can hope for is that they died quickly -- preferably before they could even realize what was happening. :(
There is a larger issue. More oil is being shipped by rail. The Wall St. Journal had the numbers (which I don't have in front of me). With increased oil & gas production in the US & Canada the oil is having to be shipped by rail because:
1] Existing pipelines are at 100% capacity.
2] Piplelines don't exist to take oil from current production fields to the refineries.
Pipelines are much, much safer than transporting oil by rail. But the green whackos have been doing everything possible to prevent additional pipelines being built or expanded.
I remember all of the idiotic green predictions about the trans-Alaska oil pipeline being such a huge problem that would poison Alaska forever. Of course, none of that happed because pipelines are much safer per ton mile than trains.
Quote from: airboy on July 15, 2013, 10:33:53 AM
There is a larger issue. More oil is being shipped by rail. The Wall St. Journal had the numbers (which I don't have in front of me). With increased oil & gas production in the US & Canada the oil is having to be shipped by rail because:
1] Existing pipelines are at 100% capacity.
2] Piplelines don't exist to take oil from current production fields to the refineries.
Pipelines are much, much safer than transporting oil by rail. But the green whackos have been doing everything possible to prevent additional pipelines being built or expanded.
I remember all of the idiotic green predictions about the trans-Alaska oil pipeline being such a huge problem that would poison Alaska forever. Of course, none of that happed because pipelines are much safer per ton mile than trains.
I'll give you that.... give me a teaparty whacko over a eco-whacko any day.
And pipelining is the way to go, not only safer, but significantly cheaper too
Quote from: Windigo on July 15, 2013, 03:25:32 PM
give me a teaparty whacko over a eco-whacko any day.
oh sweet irony, I do love you.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on July 15, 2013, 04:51:39 PM
Quote from: Windigo on July 15, 2013, 03:25:32 PM
give me a teaparty whacko over a eco-whacko any day.
oh sweet irony, I do love you.
all about personal choices today my friend,
tommorow the velvet fist of green tyranny gets put back on
on what?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on July 15, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
on what?
never thought of that.... wonder what the feedback on it would be
Now there's a visual of you typing. :o
People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
When people cannot even agree on objective reality, then there is no solution to problems. Windego can form opinions based on objective facts - which all thinking people should be able to do.
Unfortunately, many people are so blinded by ideology that facts cannot sway them. Leaning one way or another from ideology is not a real problem, unless you cannot adjust your opinions to objective reality.
Some have started to talk about pipelines, but I think that is only limited to oil. There are plenty of industrial materials needed for use & production that need to be transported by rail. Using more truck-tankers has been floated around, but I think that would only make traffic congestion worse, and driving more hazardous. Throwing more of those on the highways doesn't sound like a better solution (even the green activists can see that). Nor does it sound like it would be even close to as cost effective as rail is.
I've heard some local politicians in the area here ask about seeing if trains carrying hazardous materials can go around their cities or neighborhoods. However they haven't proposed where it should go, if not through the already existing track.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railroads-Canada-frame.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railroads-Canada-frame.png)
Sounds like the way forward will be better maintenance by the rail company, better trains, better management, and having stricter enforcement of the rules by both industry & government. Sounds like there's been a lot of research onto it throughout the years.
Next Generation Tank Car Project (NGRTC)
https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/ (https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/)
Small tidbit, the group that manages the public pension plan here in Quebec had invested several million dollars into MMA a few years ago, in capital and in the form of a loan (the loan was paid back by 2011, and current investment about $1000)
http://www.lacaisse.com/en/news-media/press-releases/facts-caisses-investment-montreal-maine-atlantic-railway-corporation (http://www.lacaisse.com/en/news-media/press-releases/facts-caisses-investment-montreal-maine-atlantic-railway-corporation)
The quantity of material shipped is why oil & natural gas can be economically shipped by pipeline.
You are right that many other hazardous chemicals are shipped by rail. But those derailments are not as serious because of the smaller quantities of materials.
Quote from: airboy on July 16, 2013, 08:56:14 AM
People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
When people cannot even agree on objective reality, then there is no solution to problems. Windego can form opinions based on objective facts - which all thinking people should be able to do.
Unfortunately, many people are so blinded by ideology that facts cannot sway them. Leaning one way or another from ideology is not a real problem, unless you cannot adjust your opinions to objective reality.
I love it when you talk dirty to me....
But I know you just want me to buy your book