Take for instance the Warmachine - Tactics kickstarter - now sat at c.£950,000 with a goal of £550,000 - its passed, brilliant and i cant wait for the game BUT.............
why the stretch goals? whilst nice, you had me at 'this is what we want to make and heres a video to show it with some info' that info didnt include 'extra bits' but you still got my money - you got my money because i believed in the core concept and im happy with that - so what if you get £1million, make the game at the estimated 550,000 and bask in the glory of the other 450,000 - please, please dont feel guilty about the extra money, dont add on other stuff noone asked for, bits than could break the game, bits that could extend the programme - just make what you told us you wanted to make - were all happy to pay for that
There was a double fine project that took over 600 percent of its goal and they added so much to it theyve now run out of money and time trying to justify the over subscribed original concept - it doesnt matter
Kickstarter encourages the stretch goals as value-adds for people who got in early to help recruit more funding.
Sometimes those stretch goals get freakin' awesome, like the Reaper minis campaign last summer.
From what I've seen, the stretch goals generally aren't a ton of work unless the difference is pretty large. If anything, they're making more money for it.
Quote from: Nefaro on July 22, 2013, 11:45:42 AM
From what I've seen, the stretch goals generally aren't a ton of work unless the difference is pretty large. If anything, they're making more money for it.
as long as they dont overextend the original project which is what most people will have signed up for theyre cool - i suppose im aiming more at the 'we got so much more money we have to justify it angle'
...
Nah, I've crapped on Kickstarter and people getting in over their heads enough. ;D
Arctic decided not to do it, but I think he has a subtle point hidden under the joke. Increasingly, I am seeing KS projects get too ambitious with the stretch goals so that it holds up, delays, or otherwise sabotages their main game. Case in point, there is a silly lighter minis battle game called Krosmaster coming from France into the US (based on the Dofus universe, if you know it). But they offered so many promos and such that the second shipment of promos got caught in customs and charged heavy duty fees (apparently figures have duty taxes and board games do not, who knew). So backers are waiting on the customs delayed package to get the base game that is already in the warehouse.
Initial release was early-June, then early-July, and now it looks like late July or early August. The backers are getting really irritable, particularly considering that people might be able to buy them at Cons (notably GenCon) before they get their KS-backed game.
The PC game KS projects are even worse. I've backed a good handful of them and only actually gotten a released game with about 2-3. For these one-man outfits, the chance that they will ever be "finished" seems remote. Not every indie game is going to be Minecraft.
I've been waiting for this one, which reached its target in April. So - where is it?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1893407396/war-stories
Wasteland 2 is running in a similar problem. They have some much extra content to include from stretch goals and people still donating money after the fact that they won't meet the original release date but hope to open the beta on that data. In this case I am not to worried as they have communicated very well with us backers. I would rather they take the time and get it done right.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on July 22, 2013, 04:36:46 PM
Arctic decided not to do it, but I think he has a subtle point hidden under the joke. Increasingly, I am seeing KS projects get too ambitious with the stretch goals so that it holds up, delays, or otherwise sabotages their main game. Case in point, there is a silly lighter minis battle game called Krosmaster coming from France into the US (based on the Dofus universe, if you know it). But they offered so many promos and such that the second shipment of promos got caught in customs and charged heavy duty fees (apparently figures have duty taxes and board games do not, who knew). So backers are waiting on the customs delayed package to get the base game that is already in the warehouse.
Initial release was early-June, then early-July, and now it looks like late July or early August. The backers are getting really irritable, particularly considering that people might be able to buy them at Cons (notably GenCon) before they get their KS-backed game.
The PC game KS projects are even worse. I've backed a good handful of them and only actually gotten a released game with about 2-3. For these one-man outfits, the chance that they will ever be "finished" seems remote. Not every indie game is going to be Minecraft.
That's exactly what I meant!
They say we need 300k to make this game - I give them my money because that game is exactly what I want - then they say ooo we can give you XXX now - no, no, no I wanted what you'd said you'd make that's why I paid
Quote from: TheCommandTent on July 22, 2013, 06:04:23 PM
Wasteland 2 is running in a similar problem. They have some much extra content to include from stretch goals and people still donating money after the fact that they won't meet the original release date but hope to open the beta on that data. In this case I am not to worried as they have communicated very well with us backers. I would rather they take the time and get it done right.
Thankfully, Shadowrun Returns looks to be ready and to be released this week, somewhat on schedule!
I worry a lot about Cthulhu Wars, which asked for a small amount and made over $1 million! For a boardgame, that is insane. And they kept adding extras. I put a lot of money into that KS, because I wanted the whole shebang, and I hope that it doesn't get a massive delay.
I'm still waiting for Ogre Deluxe Edition, which got waylaid by its extras and the fact they couldn't fit them into the box! It is past due by about a year now.
Somewhere in my massive horde of junk I have (or had) a copy of OGRE in the little plastic box. I have not laid eyes on it in several years.
Steve Jackson games FTW!!!
Quote from: son_of_montfort on July 22, 2013, 09:01:58 PM
Thankfully, Shadowrun Returns looks to be ready and to be released this week, somewhat on schedule!
Yes, but I worry much about it.
Having pined for a good Shadowrun RPG on the PC for years, I've been afraid that this was whipped up a bit too quickly. At the price, I'm also wary of how short it will probably be out of the box so even if the system is up to snuff.. it may well suffer from lack of extensive content despite the editor tools looking quite friendly and what seems to be a large fanbase to use it.
If only one release turns out good this year - please let it be this one!
Quote from: TheCommandTent on July 22, 2013, 06:04:23 PM
Wasteland 2 is running in a similar problem. They have some much extra content to include from stretch goals and people still donating money after the fact that they won't meet the original release date but hope to open the beta on that data. In this case I am not to worried as they have communicated very well with us backers. I would rather they take the time and get it done right.
And unlike double fine, they are still within budget even with the increase in scope. 6 weeks behind isn't all that bad all things considered.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on July 22, 2013, 09:36:18 PM
Steve Jackson games FTW!!!
Oh, this Deluxe edition is going to be glorious. If they ever ship it to us.
Nefaro, I hear you regarding Shadowrun. I was worried it would be too short and buggy as well. Hopefully it won't or they will use the profits and the new engine to produce cheap DLC, expansions, extra adventures, or whatever to improve longevity.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 22, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
Somewhere in my massive horde of junk I have (or had) a copy of OGRE in the little plastic box. I have not laid eyes on it in several years.
Latecomer. Some of us still have our copy of
Ogre in the original plastic bag, for which we paid a whopping $2.95.
Long live Microgames!!!
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 22, 2013, 09:24:46 AM
Take for instance the Warmachine - Tactics kickstarter - now sat at c.£950,000 with a goal of £550,000 - its passed, brilliant and i cant wait for the game BUT.............
why the stretch goals? whilst nice, you had me at 'this is what we want to make and heres a video to show it with some info' that info didnt include 'extra bits' but you still got my money - you got my money because i believed in the core concept and im happy with that - so what if you get £1million, make the game at the estimated 550,000 and bask in the glory of the other 450,000 - please, please dont feel guilty about the extra money, dont add on other stuff noone asked for, bits than could break the game, bits that could extend the programme - just make what you told us you wanted to make - were all happy to pay for that
There was a double fine project that took over 600 percent of its goal and they added so much to it theyve now run out of money and time trying to justify the over subscribed original concept - it doesnt matter
The issue is not just the expanded goals, it's bad management, all the money in world isn't enough if a project isn't well managed. About 95% of failed projects & companies fail due to bad management, doesn't make a difference if it's a new building or a software project. I don't know if anyone tracks kick-starter failures but, about 25% or so of will not deliver a finished project (fail) and about 50% plus will likely deliver something some what less than what was expected. Just look at E3, less than half of the projects announced ever get delivered on scheduled and about 20-25% never get released at all.
Yeah. Those sorts of failure rates in Corporate IT are very well documented and just about as common.
Oh, what the Hell...
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 22, 2013, 09:24:46 AM
why the stretch goals?
Because without stretch goals, they won't get buyers...they'll get whiners. Seriously. Take a look at any discussion thread of a Kickstarter game on BGG or a gaming site, and you'll see people complaining that the stretch goals aren't good enough. Everyone wants more and more stuff, and then those same people are the first to complain when that extra stuff causes delays.
Quote from: SgtRock on July 25, 2013, 09:41:40 AM
The issue is not just the expanded goals, it's bad management, all the money in world isn't enough if a project isn't well managed. About 95% of failed projects & companies fail due to bad management, doesn't make a difference if it's a new building or a software project. I don't know if anyone tracks kick-starter failures but, about 25% or so of will not deliver a finished project (fail) and about 50% plus will likely deliver something some what less than what was expected. Just look at E3, less than half of the projects announced ever get delivered on scheduled and about 20-25% never get released at all.
And this is the other part of it. Now you have new developers, or old developers who never previously had to worry about the business side of things, diving in. They don't know what's involved in terms of expenses because they've never run it before. Sure, they're factoring in the costs of an animator...they just aren't remembering that they need to buy him a copy of his animation software first. All of the day-to-day expenses of running a business are new to these guys, and some of them screw it up.
Now add that to the stretch goals. Now you have more moving parts being added to the formula. More time needed working on the extra stuff. More resources spent on delivering them. How many of these guys are properly accounting for the extra work needed to realize those stretch goals? Particularly when they're throwing up more stretch goals in response to people complaining about a lack of them?
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