Announcing Combat Mission Battle for Normandy: "Market Garden"
CMBN Market Garden - News
Friday, 16 August 2013
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How far is this bridge?
Combat Mission: Market Garden depicts allied Field Marshall Bernard Montgomery's September 1944 dash across Holland in a daring gambit to leap the Rhine river and enter the heartland of Germany itself. Fielding U.S., British and Polish forces, Operation Market Garden was meant to be the lightning stroke which would end the war that year. It included the largest airborne operation seen to that day or since. Market Garden ended in tragedy, though, when the allies failed to capture their final objective, the Rhine river bridge at Arnhem. It was, in the famous words of Lt. General Fredrick "Boy" Browning, a bridge too far.
CM: Market Garden allows the player to recreate Monty's desperate struggles to reach and cross the Rhine in Holland. It is an expansion module to Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy and requires the base game in order to play, upgraded to 2.0! No other modules are required.
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New, larger bridges!
For the first time, CM:Market Garden offers detailed, historical, to-scale models of the bridges involved in the Market Garden battles:
Arnhem bridge
Arnhem railroad bridge
Eindhoven bridge
Nijmegen bridge
Along with generic large bridges for creating your own fictional battles:
Canal bridge
Angled bridge
Round bridge
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New buildings!
New urban buildings, modeled after buildings near the Arnhem and Nijmegen bridges; and windmills!Image
New map tools!
New editor elevation tools, and a new terrain type: dirt footpaths
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New Scenarios!
Ranging from tiny to huge and with a varied mix of forces, 14+ standalone scenarios focus on the new units, weapons and vehicles found in the module.
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Master Maps!
The 7 "master maps" are huge maps, historically accurate, detailed and thoroughly researched, depicting the main areas around the bridges where most of the fighting happened:
Oosterbeek
Johana Hoeve
Arnhem Road Bridge
Oosterhout ( north of Nijmegen)
Nijmegen
West Nijmegen
Elst
These master maps will help scenario designers in creating their own scenarios without the burden of having to create the maps from scratch. The maps can be cut to encompass smaller areas for individual battles.Image
Two Campaigns: Allied and German
THE ROAD TO NIJMEGEN – ALLIED CAMPAIGN
September 17, 1944. Holland.
15 missions.
A MOMENT IN TIME - GERMAN CAMPAIGN
September 19, 1944. Holland.
6 missions.
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New Units and Equipment!
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy: "Market Garden" will be available for Download, Mail Delivery or both Download & Mail later this summer, exclusively from Battlefront.com!
Click here to jump to the CMBN-MG webpage for screenshots and more details
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Ok
Let me be the first to say "Me Want"
Con
Yeah. I saw that. But no release date or cost as yet.
OMG!!!!! Yes!!!!
My perpetual questuon : is there a package? I still aren't picked up any title.
I am already getting annoyed. It says:
QuoteCombat Mission: Battle for Normandy and requires the base game in order to play, upgraded to 2.0! No other modules are required.
If this means we have to first pay to upgrade our base game, and then pay again to get the module, I might be tempted to pass on this and just get the Market Garden module for
Battle Academy. Again, I know of no other company that would make you pay for a patch just so you could then buy another module in the series from them. That is double-dipping to me.
I hope this isn't the case but it sure sounds like it to me. >:(
Yes, you do have to pay for the 2.0 upgrade before buying MG.
But, the good news is that you only have to buy Normandy which has gone down in price, and not the brand new Battles In Italy.
Quote from: magnus on August 16, 2013, 03:36:16 PM
Yes, you do have to pay for the 2.0 upgrade before buying MG.
But, the good news is that you only have to buy Normandy which has gone down in price, and not the brand new Battles In Italy.
They still only sell CMBN 1.0, then you have to buy the 2.0 update, before Market Garden. I don't know of any company that sells old versions of software then makes you pay for an upgrade!
Will vehicles still drive through each other when they travel over these new bridges?
Another game added to my list....surprising they didn't open up pre orders and provide pricing information....typically in the past when they made announcements this was all done too.
The need to pay $5 for the upgrade has never been a secret. I guess they could have hid the cost in the expansion costs if that would have made people happier, but I doubt it. We then have people upset that they raised the price and charge too much for an expansion. Me? I paid. I have no problem doing so because I enjoy the games.
I thought it was $10.
Yes. why not just give CMBN 2 to all newcomers?
Yeah.. that's the whole point.. when someone finally 'gives in' and buys a game.. they kind of assume they get the 'latest'..
Like Paradox.. people complain about the Paradox Expansion Patches.. But at least with them.. when you buy the latest expansion.. you get the latest..
This is sort of similar to the Steel Beasts discussion, and for that matter some of the discussion we're having on SimHQ regarding flight simulation development.
The short version is that it is increasingly difficult for creators to make a single, definitive version of a game and still have enough cash flow to move forward. If you want to continue to see the CM engine evolve then a slow, steady income is critical. That's the gist of the argument, anyway. Whether it accurately applies to CM isn't something I can really say one way or the other.
If you really like the game, the concept, the developer, and want to see more, I recommend voting with your wallet.
Though you need to pay for an upgrade of Steel Beasts, newcomers will get to buy Steel Beast's latest version.
The existing customers don't mind and most of them would be currently in love with CM.
But this is a barrier to new customers (like me). I end up choosing to buy another game.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 16, 2013, 05:43:32 PM
I thought it was $10.
If you buy upgrade right now, it is $10. However, if you buy the upgrade bundled with the Market Garden purchase it will only cost $5. It probably would have been less confusing if they just sold the Market Garden expansion for an additional $5 and just said the 2.0 upgrade was included:) Probably nobody would have had an issue with that even though the outcome would have been the same...
No because someone would bitch that this expansion is more expensive than the others. Frankly if $5 is going to break the bank then maybe some other live priorities need to be looked at before buying a game.
Probably.....regardless, I will be pre ordering as usual when it becomes available...
I'll be getting it too at some point. Maybe not pre-order or first day this time, but I will get it because I think CMX2 is the best thing going for that type of game.
It makes sense, though, that if the patch thing is causing consternation among customers, why not just fold the $5 into the cost of the expansion?
It's not about the money, but about the perception.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on August 16, 2013, 10:24:52 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 16, 2013, 05:43:32 PM
I thought it was $10.
If you buy upgrade right now, it is $10. However, if you buy the upgrade bundled with the Market Garden purchase it will only cost $5. It probably would have been less confusing if they just sold the Market Garden expansion for an additional $5 and just said the 2.0 upgrade was included:) Probably nobody would have had an issue with that even though the outcome would have been the same...
See, I find that a bit more...easy to swallow. Just a bit, mind you, but probably enough to get me to fork over my cash. At least Battlefront seems to be making an effort on their part rather than merely going ahead with a "like it or leave it" mentality.
For me, it isn't about the money but about the practice. As I've said before, no other gaming company that I know of, big or small, major studio or indie shack, charges for a mere patch. An expansion, sure, but never a patch. And I also know of no other studio that upon releasing an expansion also charges for a separate patch (if anything, it is the complete reverse: the mega-patch that accompanies an expansion is usually distributed to both people who buy the expansion and those who don't
for free). $5 is still outrageous, but at least it is more of a token outrage. ;D
The other problem I have with this is that initially we were told that if you didn't want the patch, fine - no one is making you buy it. Well...now they are. Which is what I expected from Day One because no other outcome made sense.
Anyway, just my two cents. I am looking forward to this expansion, so it is what it is.
This has been the Battlefront line all along. $10 now following the CMBI release to bring CMBN up to V 2.0 or wait for MG and pay $5 to bring it up to V 2.0. I'm not sure how outrageous it really is compared to the DLC a minute releases that many dev/pub are using these days. Hell you pay $5 for the Paradox DLC when it is newly released and all you get is some new skins or shields or a song. Or $5 for a new civ or some other trinkets in CIV V. The list there goes on and on. Here your are getting a pretty major code over hall that brings some really great features into the game. In any event, I'm looking forward to MG because it'll bring hours of entertainment at a pretty cheap rate.
A link to the older thread, in case anyone missed it: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=6949.0 (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=6949.0)
Perception of others is one of those nebulous things, hard to pin down and even harder to understand. Individually it seems some are in the denial stage and refusing to accept the reality presented. Battlefront is selling an upgrade not a patch, patches have always been free. The version 2 upgrade is full of useful gameplay features that for $10 is a no brainer, the new graphical aspect is just icing on the cake. As noted above, Battlefront is hardly unique here, many sell DLC offering much less content. Perhaps they should start selling extra uniforms and AFV skins, and that would be more palatable?
When I first bought CMBN over 2years ago I paid a whopping $55, then another $10 for the 2.0 upgrade. Today the base game is just $35, add on the $10 upgrade and the wait and see crowd is still better off with the latest engine. I fail to see the issue whether is 'packaged' as such or not. Market Garden is an optional module for CMBN, not a base game and requires the latest version of the engine to play, which after 2 and a half years has changed significantly. It's not hard to understand a company improving their product and moving forward. Most gamers, me included, are happy to be able to keep the engine current.
Regardless of the perception hubbub, the MG module looks to cover a very interesting period of history and am looking forward to the new and challenging tactical situations.
Quote from: Zonso on August 17, 2013, 08:52:48 AM
Perception of others is one of those nebulous things, hard to pin down and even harder to understand. Individually it seems some are in the denial stage and refusing to accept the reality presented. Battlefront is selling an upgrade not a patch, patches have always been free. The version 2 upgrade is full of useful gameplay features that for $10 is a no brainer, the new graphical aspect is just icing on the cake. As noted above, Battlefront is hardly unique here, many sell DLC offering much less content. Perhaps they should start selling extra uniforms and AFV skins, and that would be more palatable?
When I first bought CMBN over 2years ago I paid a whopping $55, then another $10 for the 2.0 upgrade. Today the base game is just $35, add on the $10 upgrade and the wait and see crowd is still better off with the latest engine. I fail to see the issue whether is 'packaged' as such or not. Market Garden is an optional module for CMBN, not a base game and requires the latest version of the engine to play, which after 2 and a half years has changed significantly. It's not hard to understand a company improving their product and moving forward. Most gamers, me included, are happy to be able to keep the engine current.
Regardless of the perception hubbub, the MG module looks to cover a very interesting period of history and am looking forward to the new and challenging tactical situations.
And there's nothing wrong with that, if it's their model. But people buying the game for the first time.. .don't make it an additional purchase.. if you need the money for it that bad, then add it to the price of the base game, which like you said would still be cheaper than the original.. 45 instead of 55.
But when unknowing customers (and there are a few out there), go and buy and then figure out, hey, I don't even have the latest features.. they get pissed, and I don't blame them.
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
First I like Battlefront also I am a big proponent of letting business work their own models since ultimately they are responsible for their own sucess and failures.
That being said I do think Tuna hit on something here which is this is a failure in marketing and positioning of this product.
The two versions of CMBN needs to be clearly differentiated and positioned both by name/title strategy and branding from each other.
This I think would help eliminate the confusion and distaste that comes from making a purchase only to find out through lack of knowledge that upgrades (even though at minimal cost) are required to get the high end features.
Con
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
Quit being a jerk! :P
That was my gist. CMBN is $ 45 with the upgrade and BIT is $ 55.
So you do save $ 10.
Most other companies would make you buy BIT.
Quote from: Bison on August 17, 2013, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
Quit being a jerk! :P
THAT DOES IT!!! I'M GONNA LEARN THAT DOTA2 EVEN IF THE STRESSFULNESS GIVES ME A HEART ATTACK AND KILLS ME.. AND COMING ON THERE AND GIVE YOU A WHOOPING IN MP!!!
:o ;D
Off topic, I sat down next to my son who was playing League of Legends (The Dota2 clone) the other night and started playing my bass.. He said "Can you please stop that".. I figured cause of my lousy bass playing.. The next day, he said, he was sorry it was just that the game is very stressful. lol.. I said "why do you play then!".... He is playing League of Legends every minutes he's on the computer, with a lil Dota2 (which I wanted to try with him along with Bison).. I'm worried about addiction here!.. He needs to have a nice healthy case of Gamers ADD, like we all have and he used to.
Quote from: magnus on August 17, 2013, 10:03:44 AM
That was my gist. CMBN is $ 45 with the upgrade and BIT is $ 55.
So you do save $ 10.
Most other companies would make you buy BIT.
What is BIT?
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 10:07:27 AM
Quote from: Bison on August 17, 2013, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
Quit being a jerk! :P
THAT DOES IT!!! I'M GONNA LEARN THAT DOTA2 EVEN IF THE STRESSFULNESS GIVES ME A HEART ATTACK AND KILLS ME.. AND COMING ON THERE AND GIVE YOU A WHOOPING IN MP!!!
:o ;D
Whoa! I don't want your heart to 'splode ol' man. Maybe you should just, you know, play an easier game like Bejeweled or something.
Quote from: Bison on August 17, 2013, 10:33:49 AM
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 10:07:27 AM
Quote from: Bison on August 17, 2013, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
Quit being a jerk! :P
THAT DOES IT!!! I'M GONNA LEARN THAT DOTA2 EVEN IF THE STRESSFULNESS GIVES ME A HEART ATTACK AND KILLS ME.. AND COMING ON THERE AND GIVE YOU A WHOOPING IN MP!!!
:o ;D
Whoa! I don't want your heart to 'splode ol' man. Maybe you should just, you know, play an easier game like Bejeweled or something.
It's just there's a huge selection of crap to buy at the shop!!!.. and who knows what does what!... and mean time your dude is getting killed on the game screen!... so stressful!... lol.. maybe I should go back to the shop and shop (take my time look at everything carefully), or will I lose if I do that?
Well, I might finally have to jump into combat mission again. Haven't played since the first 3 games, between there limited installs and forum attitude[haven't been there in awhile] i just moved on. Market garden is one of my favorite battles. I visited the forum today for the first time in a long while and noticed a thread about a problem with infantry firing at tanks from buildings, how big a problem is this for those that have played the game alot.
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
And there's nothing wrong with that, if it's their model. But people buying the game for the first time.. .don't make it an additional purchase.. if you need the money for it that bad, then add it to the price of the base game, which like you said would still be cheaper than the original.. 45 instead of 55.
But when unknowing customers (and there are a few out there), go and buy and then figure out, hey, I don't even have the latest features.. they get pissed, and I don't blame them.
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
I understand about making things streamlined but I question the unknowing customers part. Myself, looking at the descriptors 'Game Engine v1.0' followed by 'v2.0 upgrade' I don't have a problem connecting the dots, at least to pose the question if in doubt. I really don't know about the actually getting pissed part you allude to. In fact from various polls, opponents corresponded with and met, and the like over the years, I think the people who play CM are a pretty intelligent and sophisticated bunch, not just in military aspects, but in real life. I would be leaning way over towards almost all never had an issue with this, let alone got to the point of getting pissed. If that was what it took to make a hypothetical customer angry then perhaps playing CM isn't for them. I can think of several diabolical battles that would almost certainly drive them to destruction. Just saying. :)
Quote from: Zonso on August 18, 2013, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: Tuna on August 17, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
And there's nothing wrong with that, if it's their model. But people buying the game for the first time.. .don't make it an additional purchase.. if you need the money for it that bad, then add it to the price of the base game, which like you said would still be cheaper than the original.. 45 instead of 55.
But when unknowing customers (and there are a few out there), go and buy and then figure out, hey, I don't even have the latest features.. they get pissed, and I don't blame them.
This is also the great thing about a site like Grogheads.. people can discuss both sides of the fence without fear of being attacked for it!
I understand about making things streamlined but I question the unknowing customers part. Myself, looking at the descriptors 'Game Engine v1.0' followed by 'v2.0 upgrade' I don't have a problem connecting the dots, at least to pose the question if in doubt. I really don't know about the actually getting pissed part you allude to. In fact from various polls, opponents corresponded with and met, and the like over the years, I think the people who play CM are a pretty intelligent and sophisticated bunch, not just in military aspects, but in real life. I would be leaning way over towards almost all never had an issue with this, let alone got to the point of getting pissed. If that was what it took to make a hypothetical customer angry then perhaps playing CM isn't for them. I can think of several diabolical battles that would almost certainly drive them to destruction. Just saying. :)
I researched it myself before making a purchase, I knew I was going to be paying an extra ten dollars for the upgrade.. But I have seen posts from people who were not aware, and it left a bad test for them.
So, what does it cost....I couldn't find a price on their site. I see Normandy with patch will cost $45.00, but what does the MG add on cost?
Quote from: Rayfer on August 18, 2013, 04:38:48 PM
So, what does it cost....I couldn't find a price on their site. I see Normandy with patch will cost $45.00, but what does the MG add on cost?
No latest price info, but in the past they said it was expected to be the same cost as the commonwealth module which was $35.
Will I need the Commonwealth module to play the British scenarios? Frost, XXX Corps, etc? I don't have that yet, nor the patch.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 18, 2013, 05:09:10 PM
Will I need the Commonwealth module to play the British scenarios? Frost, XXX Corps, etc? I don't have that yet, nor the patch.
Pre Reqs for market garden is just Normandy and version 2.0
CMBN + CW is $55.
Quote from: Bison on August 18, 2013, 05:36:55 PM
CMBN + CW is $55.
BattleFront Pricing, things sure are getting confusing and expensive! :o
CMBN 1.0 $35 + CMBM 2.0 $10 + CW $35 + MG $35 = $115
CMBN 1.0 $35 + CW $35 + (CMBM 2.0 + MG) $40 = $110
(CMBN 1.0 + CW) $55 + CMBN 2.0 $10 + MG $35 = $100
(CMBN 1.0 + CW) $55 + (CMBM 2.0 + MG) $40 = $95
Plus those who bought the special box will pay even more for physical copies.
WoW, the CMFI + Gustav bundle at $75 sure looks like a bargain now and here I thought that was too expansive. :P
Just come up with a bloody package!
Quote from: jomni on August 18, 2013, 07:36:35 PM
Just come up with a bloody package!
Where's the money in doing that! ;D
Got it. It's not a cheap gaming purchase, but again something like CIV V will cost you $150 if you buy all expansions and dlc. I guess on the Brightside no one is forcing you to buy anything nor are you forced to buy everything at once.
Quote from: SgtRock on August 18, 2013, 07:32:33 PM
Quote from: Bison on August 18, 2013, 05:36:55 PM
CMBN + CW is $55.
BattleFront Pricing, things sure are getting confusing and expensive! :o
CMBN 1.0 $35 + CMBM 2.0 $10 + CW $35 + MG $35 = $115
CMBN 1.0 $35 + CW $35 + (CMBM 2.0 + MG) $40 = $110
(CMBN 1.0 + CW) $55 + CMBN 2.0 $10 + MG $35 = $100
(CMBN 1.0 + CW) $55 + (CMBM 2.0 + MG) $40 = $95
Plus those who bought the special box will pay even more for physical copies.
WoW, the CMFI + Gustav bundle at $75 sure looks like a bargain now and here I thought that was too expansive. :P
This reminds me of something out of my high school exams. Solve for MG
Con
Will a 2.1 patch cost $10? :P
Quote from: Bison on August 18, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
Got it. It's not a cheap gaming purchase, but again something like CIV V will cost you $150 if you buy all expansions and dlc.
Um... no? I think the answer is no: I sure didn't pay that for CivV, and won't have paid that for the recent BNW expansion either.
But then, that game and its ilk goes on sale every once in a while. ;)
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 19, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: Bison on August 18, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
Got it. It's not a cheap gaming purchase, but again something like CIV V will cost you $150 if you buy all expansions and dlc.
Um... no? I think the answer is no: I sure didn't pay that for CivV, and won't have paid that for the recent BNW expansion either.
But then, that game and its ilk goes on sale every once in a while. ;)
Actually you would without the Steam sales. Which goes to the point a company like 2K can afford for Steam to give their games away precisely because a multitude of people do pay full price. How many here bought CIV V, G&K, and BNW for full price? That alone is $50 + $30 + $30 = $110. Trust me not everyone held out for a mega-sale.
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 19, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: Bison on August 18, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
Got it. It's not a cheap gaming purchase, but again something like CIV V will cost you $150 if you buy all expansions and dlc.
Um... no? I think the answer is no: I sure didn't pay that for CivV, and won't have paid that for the recent BNW expansion either.
But then, that game and its ilk goes on sale every once in a while. ;)
Quite true. I paid a total of about $20 to $25 for everything Civ 5 except the last expansion. Of course, it's a larger company occasionally putting it on sale.
But ya know what? I would never have bought all the masses of DLC and the first expansion for Civ5 if it
hadn't gone on sale. So there's another point. I actually purchased CMBN & the Commonwealth pack when they offered a bundle and lowered the price on it long ago. Wouldn't have otherwise, either. It was still rather pricey but I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, which didn't quite work out as the next release ended up being a Standalone and they charged for the game updates to the stuff they released the year before. Not quite as much of a big deal if they hadn't been saying that they were only gonna add the rest of their WW2 CMx2 line as DLC when I purchased. ???
Not the first time I've experienced such flakiness with 'em, either. While it's a fun & challenging game, I'm just not into the CM series enough to keep playing their marketing games.
well its seems battlefront's pricing isn't going to be a problem for me. I went over to their forums[which i haven't frequented in a long time]after reading here about market garden game coming out. Read some AAR's of CBBN and being a sucker for a good AAR i had the game in my cart ready to go, well something made me download the demo and give it a go. Wouldn't you know damn thing wont run for me. I have a laptop with on board intel graphics and i've had problems with open gl games before, but usually i just get the offending .dll file and drop into the win32 directory or the game directory and i'm in business. This one surprised me because the spec's for the game aren't that high, but nothing worked...bummer...post in the tech forum over at battlefront and the tech help basically said i was out of luck.They hadn't been able to get their game to work with my card which is a HD3000, they said it worked on the HD4000 but not mine. Even though they share the same driver and i put the newest version of the .dll file where it needed to go. I did suggest that they change the game requirements to indicate this, since my laptop more then meets the minimum specs. I can play APOS at reasonable settings, so i was surprised i couldn't run this. The bright side of this is that it got me to re-install the first 3 CM games, there all up and running fine and i've been modding every aspect of the games so i'll be ready this weekend to play. I forgot how many mods and maps and scenario's there were and how much content battlefront packed into the first 3 game especially CMBB. I'll try the demo again when and if intel puts out another driver update. O'well...... back to modding.
Even CMSF doesn't run well with internal graphics cards. So forget about it.
Quote from: jomni on August 20, 2013, 12:15:51 AM
Even CMSF doesn't run well with internal graphics cards. So forget about it.
I find CMSF runs crappier than CMBN v2.0 even on top notch modern machines anyway, so that might not be a good gauge to go by. :)
Yes definitely the v2 engine in CMBN and CMFI are more efficient and run smoother then CMSF does, ie panning or moving around the map, animations etc. It is subjective but pretty apparent during play. The graphical look is also more immersive and polished. I have used both NVidia and Radeon graphics cards, and think the games look much better with the NVidia cards, ymmv.
Urban combat is probably one of the harder aspects to model well. Some comments from BFC on Market Garden was that one of the improvements in the module will be a better simulation of urban combat. I'm not sure exactly what that entails at this point, but changes are welcome. Currently the game has certain limitations to be aware of and work around, though a good designer can make that more seamless when making the map. I recall a couple urban battles where the map design and subsequent combat resulted in a highly plausible battle.