Interesting article in Polygon today (http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups)
QuoteThe greatest threat to the video game industry may be some of its most impassioned fans. Increasingly, game developers are finding themselves under attack by some of the very people they devote their lives to entertaining. And this growing form of gamer-on-game-developer cyber harassment is starting to take its toll.
Developers, both named and those who wish to remain anonymous, tell Polygon that harassment by gamers is becoming an alarmingly regular expected element of game development. Some developers say the problem was among the reasons they left the industry, others tell Polygon that the problem is so ubiquitous that it distracts them from making games or that they're considering leaving the industry.
The problem has become so pronounced that International Game Developers Association executive director Kate Edwards tells Polygon that the organization is looking into starting support groups and that while the harassment isn't yet having a major impact on game development, "we're at the cusp of where it could."
Yes its always amazing to see the common high amount of vitriol and hostility on many official forums.
It's not only there, its common all over the internet. From social sites to game forums. People just seem to think its ok because we have freedom of speech, the internet is for everyone, they can spew their filth anonymously or they feel entitled... whatever.
I just enjoy sites like Grogheads to have decent discussions and often stay away from any official forums.
very good quote from further down in the article, that fortunately I don't think applies to Grogs as a whole, and certainly not here
Quote"I could go on and on about this, but I'm just going to consider one example: the word 'noob.' If you decide to take up almost any other hobby in the world, you can find beginning classes teaching you how to do it. If you want to knit, you can go to a yarn store and meet fellow knitters who will help you get the basics. If you want to play basketball, you can join a rec center or community league at a beginner level. And generally, the people already involved in those hobbies are thrilled to have someone with whom they can share their passion. But if you want to get started as a gamer, you get told, 'go home noob,' because people in this hobby hate newcomers so much they turned the word itself into an insult. How are we supposed to thrive as an industry if we are actively hostile to growing our audience?"
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 21, 2013, 12:54:29 PM
Interesting article in Polygon today (http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups)
QuoteThe greatest threat to the video game industry may be some of its most impassioned fans. Increasingly, game developers are finding themselves under attack by some of the very people they devote their lives to entertaining. And this growing form of gamer-on-game-developer cyber harassment is starting to take its toll.
Developers, both named and those who wish to remain anonymous, tell Polygon that harassment by gamers is becoming an alarmingly regular expected element of game development. Some developers say the problem was among the reasons they left the industry, others tell Polygon that the problem is so ubiquitous that it distracts them from making games or that they're considering leaving the industry.
The problem has become so pronounced that International Game Developers Association executive director Kate Edwards tells Polygon that the organization is looking into starting support groups and that while the harassment isn't yet having a major impact on game development, "we're at the cusp of where it could."
I think this is a valid point. The strange resonances of episodes such as the release of CLOD certainly suggest a peculiar dynamic for the disappointed fanboi element out there. I'm sure I'm not rational about such things as WWII online or StormEagle Studios.
Some designers (such as the total War designers and Bohemia Interactive) seem to handle the horrors of feedback pretty well. I like the Bohemia Interactive solution to the disappointed fans of a realism that doesn't seem likely in the FPS environment -- they just set ARMAIII in an imaginary future world -- a realistic solution to fans who don't like your failures to live up to their need for realism.
I'm not sure what the problem is exactly -- I can of course sympathize with disappointed fans but I wonder about the need to go on and on projecting this disappointment on everything else (even if it is a valid expectation -- ie disappointment). I also wonder about the impact on design decisions since its clearly risky to promise more than you are absolutely certain of delivering, BUT that cramps design and probably has an impact on which projects get funded.
As I head up the tiers of World of Tanks, I'm finding more and more jerks at the higher levels that get upset easily when their side doesn't do what they think they should do. They have declared themselves tank experts, everyone else are noobs and they don't seem to understand it's just a game. WoT is great fun to play, but the gamers are sometimes the turnoff.
Like the other day, some guy sending messages after messages calling his side all noobs and yet he was one of the first killed on the team. Or the guy that accused me of not finding cover with my Panther despite my tank being the last one left alive against four enemies and I did have two kills.
I can see why some new gamers and even some developers get turned off by the constant whiners.
I think much of the snotty elitism comes from the age of the players and the type of games. For example, it rarely appears in games like War in the Pacific, where the average age of the players is probably 35+
Ask a question over there and someone is always around to help.
Back when I played WoW, I made the statement in chat that I would gladly pay more for a server that was verified "30+". Naturally I got a lot of vitriol directed towards my comments along with lots of "you can be immature at 30 too" remarks, but there were also a lot of "yeah, I would pay as well" comments. When Fallen Earth went ftp, a game which had boasted one of the more mature and helpful gaming environments was lost as the griefing/whining/begging level shot up to the point that I dropped the game. This isn't meant as a diatribe against younger players, but as a customer base, a lack of maturity can ruin things for other customers quicker than flaws in the game design.
that reminds me of a place..... hmmm
Quote from: WallysWorld on August 21, 2013, 01:55:56 PM
As I head up the tiers of World of Tanks, I'm finding more and more jerks at the higher levels that get upset easily when their side doesn't do what they think they should do. They have declared themselves tank experts, everyone else are noobs and they don't seem to understand it's just a game. WoT is great fun to play, but the gamers are sometimes the turnoff.
Like the other day, some guy sending messages after messages calling his side all noobs and yet he was one of the first killed on the team. Or the guy that accused me of not finding cover with my Panther despite my tank being the last one left alive against four enemies and I did have two kills.
I can see why some new gamers and even some developers get turned off by the constant whiners.
It's sad they don't moderate it, I gave up WOT but, even if banned, it's too easy just to create another free account and continue being a jerk. I'll say GuildWars 2 got this part right, players help each other and even say thank you during group events.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 21, 2013, 03:57:06 PM
that reminds me of a place..... hmmm
I think I know the place.....used to be nice, but nothing left there now but pinenuts and 32 sockpuppet variations.
I can see knocking a company but, the developers personally I don't get. I think part of it is, the I want it my way and I want it now generation. The internet breeds bad personal skills and too many seem to be raised with little or no manners. I think some Asian countries are starting to teach internet manners in schools.
In the civilian sim world, X-Plane users are very critical of Microsoft FS users. They always claim their sim is more superior and say the are the real pilots while MSFS guys are just playing with toys. I have both but I have my reasons for sticking with MSFS. And one of them is because of the X-Plane community.
Quote from: Herman Hum on August 21, 2013, 02:08:35 PM
I think much of the snotty elitism comes from the age of the players and the type of games. For example, it rarely appears in games like War in the Pacific, where the average age of the players is probably 35+
Ask a question over there and someone is always around to help.
Believe me, there are some rabid fans.
Quote from: WallysWorld on August 21, 2013, 01:55:56 PM
As I head up the tiers of World of Tanks, I'm finding more and more jerks at the higher levels that get upset easily when their side doesn't do what they think they should do. They have declared themselves tank experts, everyone else are noobs and they don't seem to understand it's just a game. WoT is great fun to play, but the gamers are sometimes the turnoff.
I just ignore the idiots and play the game.
though I have to admit that sometimes when someone is just a complete idiot my finger slips on the mouse button. ::)
128mm of stfu. ;D
The Internet introduces both anonymity and the depersonalization of other folks. Neither is conducive to civil dialogue.
Computer gaming is mostly a solo hobby, and while computer gamers have many traits to recommend themselves, abnormally high social skills generally isn't on that list.
It's obviously a huge generalization, and there are a million exceptions (both you and old), but invite computer gamers to post on the internet is a bit like inviting untreated cataract patients to a shooting range.
I'll put myself on report here.
I've been, not exactly ranting but expressing forceful, negative opinions, on SimHQ on the Battle over Stalingrad, Rise of Flight and DCS forums the last few months. Mostly this stems from the fact that as an avid flight simmer and somebody who's been in the hobby pretty much from the beginning, I feel that I have a good pulse of what makes a mainstream-ish flight sim that appeals to a wide variety of players.
There just aren't that many sims in the works these days, and the ones that are coming out seem to miss obvious mechanics that have made previous sims so popular and have such longevity. It's like, the wheel is invented but developers seem to feel the need to go and keep trying to reinvent it.
Take IL-2 for example. That is a widely popular, long-lived flight sim. If I'm going to make a WW2 flight sim, Cliffs of Dover or Stalingrad or whatever, the first thing I'm going to do is look at what made IL-2 so popular and keep that stuff in...improve upon it. Not reinvent the wheel with things like unlocks, static campaigns, limited planesets, etc. This goes for other sims as well: Over Flanders Fields/Red Baron 3D vs. Rise of Flight; Falcon 4.0 vs. DCS; etc.
So when we as customers rage against developers, it's mostly because some of the stuff we players want seems so bloody obvious. We get frustrated when the guys that make these games refuse to listen to what we want, and for lack of alternatives we play what we can get, rather than what we want....and meantime lament the lack of content that is so obviously missing.
Quote from: Toonces on August 21, 2013, 08:29:53 PM
Take IL-2 for example. That is a widely popular, long-lived flight sim. If I'm going to make a WW2 flight sim, Cliffs of Dover or Stalingrad or whatever, the first thing I'm going to do is look at what made IL-2 so popular and keep that stuff in...improve upon it.
my guess is that its when they try improving upon the good stuff that things go pear shaped.
Ah, gamers. Quite possibly the most obnoxious and toxic social group on the planet.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on August 21, 2013, 09:35:22 PM
Ah, gamers hipsters. Quite possibly the most obnoxious and toxic social group on the planet.
fixed
As a game developer I use one simple rule. It keeps me sane.
I make the game I like.
Then I share it with you. If you don't like it, play something else.
Good Hunting.
I think the game developers in the article come off as a bit like spoiled babies. On twitter I saw a few tweets going around from high profile developers, they sounded like they were suffering from a unique form of persecution. It sounded like there was no end to the hurt feelings (perhaps bruised egos).
We all experience the idiots that roam the internet causing misery wherever they go. When I played WoT, calling out other players rudely was very common. In any MMO I have played, the general chat area is filled with insults, immaturity, and racism. Perhaps developers get more than their fair share of crap from disappointed gamers, but it is a common problem faced by all. It is not the fans, it is just a new breed of idiot growing up on the consequence free internet.
Quote from: Swatter on August 23, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
I think the game developers in the article come off as a bit like spoiled babies. On twitter I saw a few tweets going around from high profile developers, they sounded like they were suffering from a unique form of persecution. It sounded like there was no end to the hurt feelings (perhaps bruised egos).
We all experience the idiots that roam the internet causing misery wherever they go. When I played WoT, calling out other players rudely was very common. In any MMO I have played, the general chat area is filled with insults, immaturity, and racism. Perhaps developers get more than their fair share of crap from disappointed gamers, but it is a common problem faced by all. It is not the fans, it is just a new breed of idiot growing up on the consequence free internet.
I disagree about the spoiled babies part. These are people who are literally sent mountains of DEATH THREATS AND WORSE because they tweaked a timing issue in a game or many equally other minor situations. Nowhere else in human society would that be accepted. Yet the vast majority of the gaming world shrugs and pretty much says "Well, that's how it works here." That's insane. I'd probably have one Hell of a chip on my shoulder facing that on a regular basis and then being told I should just grin and bear it "Because, y'know...gaming!"
I'm being completely serious when I say that the majority of the gaming world are the most spoilt, whiny, socially maladjusted collection of humanity you will find in the supposedly civilized world.
Quote from: Swatter on August 23, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
I think the game developers in the article come off as a bit like spoiled babies. On twitter I saw a few tweets going around from high profile developers, they sounded like they were suffering from a unique form of persecution. It sounded like there was no end to the hurt feelings (perhaps bruised egos).
We all experience the idiots that roam the internet causing misery wherever they go. When I played WoT, calling out other players rudely was very common. In any MMO I have played, the general chat area is filled with insults, immaturity, and racism. Perhaps developers get more than their fair share of crap from disappointed gamers, but it is a common problem faced by all. It is not the fans, it is just a new breed of idiot growing up on the consequence free internet.
Yeah, you make a good point. If you've played multiplayer games on the 'net much, then it's likely you've been the target of some idiot's personal attacks. The developers just get the attention more than Avg Joe.
I think some do act spoiled, but I do concede that they can receive more than their fair share.
At the same time, anyone who engages in online public forums potentially exposes themselves to death threats and douchebags. If I had the poor judgment to routinely engage in political discussions on twitter, then I open myself to that kind of vitriol. Game companies engage in public forums to promote and discuss their projects, it would be naïve to expect the idiots to hold fire.
It is a minefield we all must walk through (unless you are the one laying the mines). Now, when I discussed some tweets from developers earlier, the whiniest ones were the ones whose job it is to get out and promote their games via trade shows, forums, and twitter. I am not sure what they expect. It is their job to promote their products and often promising the world in the process. When the product sucks or falls short of the stratospheric expectations they peddle, are the results all that surprising.
I have a feeling much of this crap comes from twitter, because forums are heavily moderated these days. If you can't ignore/block an idiot on Twitter, you need a different job or simply need to not engage on Twitter. I am sure there are many horror stories on Twitter and most of them having nothing to do with game development.
"literally sent mountains"
Ok, you have a point here. Sending mountains is over the top, but if someone is willing to pay the shipping costs on a mountain, perhaps they should be listened to.
This conversation reminds me of an Angry Joe twitter exchange a week or so ago. Angry Joe (if you don't know) is a YouTube game reviewer with his own brand of showmanship. He tweeted one day about how a certain game was going to enlarge the breasts of one of its female characters. He said something about how it degrades women and perhaps the developers should concentrate on actually making the game better. This Twitter conversation quickly devolved into death threats. Yes, death threats over Joe's benign comment.
The more I think about it, the more whiney these game developers sound. I think it isn't so much angry/crazed fans as much as a new dynamic occurring in these social mediums. Its something that affects us all.