When Across the Dnepr was released, I AAR'ed the scenario from the Soviet side. It was a bit of a disaster for me, and I felt the scenario was unbalanced in favour of the Axis. It can be found here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2435194 I conceded the game before the end, as my situation was pretty hopeless.
The official SSG AAR was published in two Matrix Newsletters, which are no longer officially available, but which are available through an archive service. Only the thumbnails of the images are visible, though as the image links no longer work.
Part 1: http://web.archive.org/web/20120820234102/http://www.matrixgames.com/newsletter/content/atd-aar/atd-aar_page1.asp
Part 2: http://web.archive.org/web/20120821141136/http://www.matrixgames.com/newsletter/content/atd-aar/part2/atd-aar2_page1.asp
Last week, years after release, I decide to accept a challenge by someone looking for an opponent. This time, I'll be playing as the Axis. This will be the second time I play the scenario against a human for more than a handful of turns.
As posting the AAR at SSG or Matrix will mean it's only read by the handful of people that still check the SSG forums, or the Matrix ATD2 section, I decided to post it here.
The game isn't all that well known I believe, so I hope it will be an interesting read for you guys.
Some quick explanations of how the game system works:
-HQ's have a certain Area of Operations, a major new feature. Until certain triggers apply (say, a new AO activates on turn 4 or when a certain hex or collection of hexes is captured by the enemy), its AO will be limited and units belonging to a HQ can only move within that area. The AO's mean units from different HQ's might not be mutually supporting. My AO's are generous, the initial Soviet ones are very confining but they improve significantly when Vitebsk and/or Mogilev and/or Orsha fall.
-Units have steps to indicate to what extent they're up to strength (2 steps means full strength for battalions, 3 for two battalion units and 4 for three battalion regiments most of the time).
-Units may have (organic) timed replacement steps, indicated by the number in the circle after the unit's steps. The timed replacement steps take a certain number of turns to be replace the loss(es). Usually 1-2 for me and 3 or so for the Soviets.
-Units have an offensive and defensive strength number. These numbers are modified for units belonging to a division (or rather: a formation with its own OOB formation entry aside from support assets belonging to a HQ) by a divisional integrity modifier when they're within a certain number of hexes from the first unit in the formation according to the OOB (usually a regiment). In the case of the example below: 6 hexes, but the first unit always gets the bonus unlike in the DB series.
The modifier is a certain percentage bonus on top of the base attack/defense strengths, in this case 30% for my German Panzers divisions and 40% for the infantry, including motorized divisions. Soviet Cavalry, Tank and Mechanized divisions get 40%, aside from the elite 17 Tank Division and the 1st Mechanized Division (one of the strongest Soviet divisions on the map) which get 45%, 50% for the 4th Airborne Corps (3 brigades, so basically division strength), 60% for Soviet regular Rifle formations, 65% for elite Rifle divisions. I'll post an example.
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This Tank regiment has a strength of 16/13 at 4 steps, which the divisional integrity modifier of 45% combined with an entrenchment bonus for the defensive strength increases to 23/24. At 4 steps, it has a Tank Shock and Anti-Tank value of 1. It hits in Direct Fire at a 6 and in Direct Defense at a 5. It has 1 life and has a 1 hex spotting bonus.
-Unlike in the DB series, there's a separate roll to determine whether the defender retreats.
-Units may have a Direct Fire and Direct Defense capability. This is a die roll that is rolled when the unit is attacking or is attacked. If the roll succeeds, the defender/attacker suffers an additional step loss on top of the result of the battle. This is one of the main features that makes battles so lethal compared to those in the DB series, as the casualties can climb quickly. The Direct Fire roll only works against unentrenched units and from a hexside that gives the attacker a tactical shift.
-The attacker gets tactical shift bonuses for each hexside he's attacking from that isn't across a river, doesn't have a minefield or a detachment in it, and doesn't have more enemy steps adjacent to it than there are friendly steps in the hex. The tactical shift bonuses influence the odds for the battle directly, as each bonus tactical shift moves the CRT table one row to the right normally. No tactical shifts doesn't penalize the Axis, but it penalizes the Soviets by -3.
-HQ's also give units a shift bonus for being in its radius. +4 for my Panzers Corps HQ's, +3 for Army Corps HQ's and Panzer Group HQ's and +2 for the Corps HQ's. Soviet HQ's give a 2 shift bonus. The great bonus Panzer Corps HQ's give greatly reduces the need for getting tactical shifts by attacking from multiple hexsides.
-Entrenching improves defensive strength by 60% for the Axis and 40% for the Soviets. It also gives the Axis 2 defensive shifts and the Soviets 1.
-Unlike the DB series, ATD2 doesn't have CRT results for every outcome between something like ~0.5:1 and 10:1+, but after a certain point the CRT's only improve when you gain something like 3 to even 8 shifts. I'll post a picture of the CRT's.
The green dot indicates an overrun. Provided a unit still has enough bullets to attack (Note that you always need the minimum required by the unit to launch a normal attack. If that's two, even if a unit has a guaranteed overrun chance and thus won't use more than 1 bullet, it can't attack if it only has 1), it can attack again after an overrun. "S" means surrender. Surrendering combat units don't come back even if they have a life.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg543.imageshack.us%2Fimg543%2F6997%2Ftipu.jpg&hash=0f7a00ca4a055293f1cb0c5493ad1b4ee142aaf0)
-Artillery added shifts in the DB series, but now they get an Indirect Fire roll. Double dice are rolled against entrenched targets or against artillery units spotted using the counterbattery percentage chance (artillery units that fire have a certain chance of becoming visible to the enemy, moving after firing decreases the chance). Heavy artillery only has to roll 1 die against entrenched units. This can mean artillery can both be pretty much useless to very powerful depending on how good the guns are. In this scenario, I'd say they're balanced properly. Soviet artillery is worse as their divisional guns require a 5 to hit, but my units won't be entrenched as I'm advancing. I'll nearly always have to roll double dice when trying to hit anything. My artillery usually requires a 3 (independent howitzer and gun battalions) or 4 (divisional artillery and Nebelwerfers) to hit.
-Air strikes, like artillery, can cause casualties through a die roll (in good weather, 3 or higher for me and 4 or higher for the Soviets). The die roll is increased by 1 by enemy AA within range, although for reasons not entirely clear to me, organic city AA doesn't always cause a penalty seemingly. I get a maximum of 4 interdiction and 4 air strikes at a 80% availability chance per strike (so I usually have 3-4), the Soviets a maximum of 2 per turn.
-HQ's have a certain supply burst and command radius ("power rating"). Unlike the DB series, there are no on-map supply units anymore. They have values for being in position and for being mobile. The mobile radius can be quite low for infantry HQ's. The change in radius takes place the turn after you move them. If the HQ's sit still for a turn, their radius returns to the in position radius. This means interdiction can really screw up your Command and Control.
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-Units inside the command radius of their HQ's benefit from receiving normal supplies and being able to refit. That gives them a certain chance of recovering a step, 10% for the Soviets and 20% for armies and 30% for corps for the Axis. Refitting also restores more attack bullets most of the time. Normally, units gain 1 per turn as long as they're in supply and in radius. When refitting, they tend to gain 2.
Units inside the command radius also have more OP's, Operational Points (movement points) and get reduced movement penalties when moving into enemy terrain. That change from the DB series was needed after the maximum OP penalty per hex was raised from 9 to 99. When calculating how many OP's a unit pays for moving into a hex, it adds the OP's (regular movement cost and penalties, if any) of the hex the unit is moving from to those of the hex it's moving to and divides by 2. This means that, for example, moving into difficult terrain isn't difficult, but moving from forest hex to forest hex costs quite a bit of OP's
-Interdiction, ground (partisan) or air, can cause OP penalties within a certain radius from the hex it's placed on. The penalty is automatically reduced if there's a police unit or AA unit in that area (bright blue/orange=full interdiction, darker blue/orange=reduced interdiction. My air interdiction causes 3 penalty points for each hex within a 2 hex radius from the hex I aim it at, the Soviet interdiction also causes 3 penalty points but within a 1 hex radius. Partisans cause 6 points within a 2 hex radius. Reduced interdiction penalties are 1 for air interdiction and 3 for partisans.
The Soviets have a 50% chance per turn of getting 1 partisan interdiction starting on turn 4, 2 from turn 7, 3 from turn 12 and 4 from turn 18. Partisan interdiction moves from being an inconvenience to becoming a problem.
-Units expend a certain number of their bullets (indicated by the green shading in the screenshots) when attacking and jerrycans when defending. Being out of supply gives a 30% chance of losing a jerrycan automatically each turn. Units without jerrycans are considered to be isolated. Units without enough bullets to attack can't attack but are otherwise fully capable when moving or defending. Overrun attacks expend 1 bullet, surrenders none.
-Units may have a number of "lives", which mean they're reconstituted once (combat units) or an infinite number of times (HQ's as long as they command at least 1 unit/as long as their units are not all destroyed). They come back with 1 step. You get full points for killing a unit with a life once, but no further points for killing a unit a second time and thus removing it from the game. My 2 step units and most Soviet Rifle units don't have lives. My regiments and Soviet Cavalry and most of their Tank divisions have 1 life.
-Only leg, motorized leg (infantry in trucks and motorcycle units) and cavalry units can cross major rivers without a bridge. The rest needs pontoons or a road bridge.
-Most of my mobile units have 48 normal OP's, 24 reduced. My infantry 24/18, Soviet infantry 18/12, motorized units 24/16, Tank units 30/20. Support units have a variety of OP's, depending on their degree of motorization and the speed of their transports. Example: Soviet artillery with tractors=slow, motorized artillery=fast).
-The Axis get 2 Special Attacks per turn until turn 11 when it drops to 1 and 0 after turn 14. The special attacks cause 1 additional step loss to the defender, add 2 shifts, and improve the retreat and overrun chance by 1 (as in: they're moved one row down on the CRT, so if I'd normally need a 4, I need a 3 with a Special Attack).
-Units may have Tank Shock and Anti-Tank ratings. If the Tank Shock is higher than the combined total of that of the AT value of the units (indicated by an icon dots for each step strength level, like the shock bonus) and the terrain type (if it gives any), CRT results improve by moving 1, 2 or 3 rows down depending on the advantage. If the attacker doesn't have a Tank rating and the defender does, the attacker suffers a 1 row down penalty on the CRT.
-Engineers give a Shock bonus when attacking fortifications, which can significantly improve the CRT's, usually leading to overruns.
-Reinforcements and reconstituted units arrive in Off-Map Areas (OMA's) from where they can be moved to one of the maximum of 3 on-map hexes for their specific OMA the turn after you select the hex. So the sequence is: a unit arrives, you select a destination, the unit arrives next turn at that hex up until the stacking limit. If it can't arrive at the designated hex, it stays in the OMA. Units can also move from OMA to OMA to change their arrival location.
Excellent, looking forward to more. I just purchase Battles in Normandy in this week's Matrix sale. Just about done with the tutorials. Appears it uses the same engine as Across the Dnepr so I suspect I can learn a lot about the Normandy game too.
BiN uses more or less the same engine as the original ATD, for Korsun Pocket.
ATD2 is an expansion of sorts for Kharkov:DotD, which uses a different system than the DB series. It's different in the addition of Direct Fire, Direct Defense, Artillery and Air Strike direct damage rolls instead of shift bonuses, higher OP penalties, higher CRT outcomes but fewer total odds tables, HQ's, OMA's, units having lives, divisional integrity not requiring all units of a division being within range X to work but just requiring units to be in range of the first unit and the inclusion of special attacks. The actual battles are still fairly similar.
There's also no extended movement in Kharkov:DotD/ATD2, units always have either full or reduced OP's without being able to use their action capability to move further. that's also quite a big change as it increases mobility immensely due to the OP's being significantly higher to balance increased OP penalties.
That can also lead to odd situations when using interior lines along roads when there are no OP penalties and movement costs are just 1 per hex: the map scale is 4 km/hex for ATD2, so my infantry divisions at 24 OP's can march 96 kilometres per day and my armour can move 192 kilometres per day. I guess it could be an abstracted way of representing infantry catching a ride on trucks or rapid redeployment, even though truck and rail movement are in (only most of the Soviet units can use those, though, only some of my heavy artillery units can use trucks I believe).
BiN also doesn't have a surrender mechanic or refit repair, those were added in Battles in Italy. The first helps the Axis, as substandard Ost battalions are perfectly credible defensive units in BiN.
For some good BiN AAR's that might help:
Two of my tournament AAR's for a revised Omaha scenario:
http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6373 (Axis)
http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6372 (Allies)
A long one by two other veterans, playing an extended Normandy scenario called On to Paris (well, a pro-Axis variant of that scenario which gives the Axis a slight edge):
http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5306
User created scenarios are still available on the SSG website and I probably have most of the patches to the scenarios on one of my harddisks in case they're not there, so let me know if you can't find something.
http://ssg.com.au/?page=scenarios
I've been curious about this game system for some time, so I'm registering for comment tracking. Thanks for bringing it, Comrade!
Thanks for the links and info ComradeP.....I was basing my initial comments solely on the screenshots in your first post, they look a lot like BiN. Sounds like there have been some significant changes since then. Looking forward to your AAR.
I'm really happy to see this AAR. I love these SSG games, and I do also think this one is balanced in favor of the Axis. I'm in one PBEM game of it now as Axis but it got interrupted by some extensive travel that I had to do. I'm back now though and look forward to finding time to resume the game.
Anyway thanks for the AAR, great idea for a great game series that doesn't get enough attention, appreciation, or play. :)
P.S. I pity your poor opponent as I know from experience that you are an excellent PBEM opponent and playing the Axis also just seems like he will have no chance..... :P
The scenario has 20 turns, and the primary objective is Smolensk. Ideally, I'll capture it by about turn 15 or so at the latest, but that might not be possible. Delays when capturing objectives are only acceptable if the delay also resulted in the destruction of numerous Soviet units.
There's no convenient detailed overview map, only a map screen that gives a good indication of where the frontline is and where the action happened when you're playing, but doesn't tell you much when you're not playing the scenario.
Hopefully, you should get a rough idea of the terrain and where the objectives are.
The Soviets get most of their points from holding the objectives in the west and center. Rzhev, Vyazma and Kirov mostly give me points when I capture them, they only give the Soviet player final turn ownership points, so he's mostly trying to keep me from capturing them.
The objectives in the west start to give the Soviets 200 points per turn after a few turns, so they need to be captured in a somewhat timely manner.
Of the objectives, only Vitebsk can be captured on turn 1, but I don't always do so because it also allows Soviet reinforcements west of Velizh to move to the front early.
As you can see, Smolensk is protected by woods and marshes to the west, east, southeast and southwest. The northern approach is the most practical as there are gaps in the woods and forests in that area, but my central and southern forces are stronger than the ones in the north. An approach directly from the south is also possible, but you'll have to cross the Dnepr again. In order to encircle Smolensk, it's very important to do as much damage to the Soviet units in the south as possible in the first 10 or so turns as they will be too weak to both protect Roslavl and Kirov and help out at Smolensk in that case.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg163.imageshack.us%2Fimg163%2F6479%2Flgta.jpg&hash=e1a95a9a4c64a28944c05dbad2d6cbfc4bb704c7)
German OMA's. Each OMA has 3 arrival hexes, for 4 units each per turn, provided there's no unit in one of the hexes as the stacking limit of 4 units per hex also applies to reinforcements.
The arrows point roughly to the arrival areas of the units. I've only marked OMA's where units arrive by default, units can shift from one OMA to a valid neighbouring OMA at a cost of a 1 turn delay. The road and rail only entry hexes are west of Orsha, only very heavy artillery and railroad guns arrive there. The reorganization area has numerous arrival hexes between Smolensk and Orsha.
Green hexsides on a hex indicate an OMA arrival location, you'll see those in the opening turn screenshots.
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German OOB's, screenshots taken on turn 1.
Add 2 turns to the arrival turns shown here to determine on what turn the units are on the map (for example: +7 means they arrive in their designated OMA on turn 8, and they'll arrive on the map on turn 9).
Anything arriving after turn 15 is unlikely to see much, if any, action as it will take the units 4-5 turns just to get to where the frontline is at that point.
AGC forces can cover most in the map. 2nd Panzer Group operates south of the Dnepr.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg199%2F664%2Fh46f.JPG&hash=85b111f6dc98d00ea3a554c9f2b772e507e90523)
3rd Panzer Group operates north of the Dnepr.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg820%2F7838%2Fawlr.jpg&hash=2150db214bd968e831080339f7d3054039406a68)
4th Army supports 2nd Panzer Group.
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9th Army supports 3rd Panzer Group.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg585%2F8697%2F3srt.jpg&hash=b8fe5bd163980eb57cfb172d12df2ca81510e65f)
Kharkov and Across the Dnepr are now on sale at Matrix this week so this post seems to have been somewhat prescient in appearing
Great system and thank you for explaining more of the game. i have played battlefront missions but never really ever understand what the CRT (Cathode-Ray Tube? table was for or how i could use it)
The Combat Resolution Table is a leftover of sorts of the boardgame era, which simply shows the possible results when rolling a certain number with one or more dice for a certain odds ratio. Currently, computers can run the calculations for element vs element interaction within a unit, but for boardgames that would've been way too time consuming, so a system where attacker strength is compared to defender strength and a die/dice being rolled for results within a table was far more useful.
Earlier SSG games didn't have any real unit vs unit interaction, so the addition of something like Direct Fire was revolutionary in a way, particularly the Battlefront variant where you could "shoot" at a neighbouring unit without combat taking place. In Kharkov:DotD and ATD2, you do need to fight an actual battle with the defender to get benefits from direct fire.
Soviet OMA's. The Soviets have numerous road/rail entrypoints that can be both practical and inconvenient, depending on how close the Germans are. Units that enter the map in road/rail mode can't attack or entrench themselves during that turn.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.imageshack.us%2Fimg15%2F852%2F0pl4.jpg&hash=c596e80ea6bf0087cea04f664758c4833cc08e76)
Soviet OOB.
A brown background for HQ's indicates a mechanized corps. HQ's with a name in green letters indicate a cavalry group.
The 17th Tank Division and the 24th and 127th Rifle divisions are elite and have above average combat strength and get a shift bonus for being elite.
Most of these units are are 2 or 3 step strength, some of the Tank divisions nearly exist only on paper at the start with 1 step units.
Initial Soviet Rifle regiments have 4 steps maximum and some are fairly comparable to German divisions (although the regiments are weaker in attack/defense strength) when they have their full complement of support assets, the new model Rifle division reinforcements (and many of the ones in reserve near the eastern map edge at the start) have 3 steps maximum and few support assets, if any.
There are two types of mechanized/motorized divisions: the pre-Barbarossa variant with tanks, and the new stripped variant which is basically limited to infantry in trucks.
Units directly attached to Western Front and Stavka Reserve can cover the entire map east of the line Vitebsk/Orsha/Mogilev (Western Front units can go a bit further).
Note that when I describe the areas the armies can cover, that's the maximum area with the largest AO triggered. Their initial areas are a lot smaller. I've described the starting positions of the armies I'm facing initially, as where the rest will end up isn't a certainty.
4th Army will be destroyed on turn 1 normally, the divisions are running away from 2nd Panzer Group and start west of the Dnepr at 1 or 2 step strength. As they're unentrenched, they're basically little more than a speedbump, but a speedbump that needs to be taken care of.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg89%2F2173%2Fn1za.jpg&hash=92abe02508d4564af20c287b0cbae01b97bed28b)
13th Army can cover the southern part of the map, aside from the area south of Smolensk. It starts south of Orsha and also protects Mogilev.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg21%2F7199%2F8b61.jpg&hash=ca624024cc3b17509d1c184796023a78b45ee178)
16th and 20th Army can cover the central part of the map up to Vyazma. 16th Army starts in the Orsha area, 20th Army starts north of it. 19th Army can cover the central and northern part of the map up to Rzhev. It starts near Vitebsk.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg19%2F4071%2Fk72v.jpg&hash=2abced8a4b3de762076820ee6e57df83dac9480f)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg844%2F723%2Fb24t.jpg&hash=86a1786e8c513a18a2909812173fdd0ea965a87f)
22nd Army covers the northern part of the map up to Rzhev. 22nd Army covers the Dvina up to Vitebsk and the Nevel area initially.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg571%2F8278%2Ftqdl.jpg&hash=1fa7a21ce3d8a924dcc79e534f7c77fd6c092662)
21st Army can cover the area in a triangle between Kirov and the (on the map) vertical part of the Dnepr (the part that Mogilev is adjacent to) after it bends at Orsha. It starts between 13th Army and the southern map edge.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg713%2F8890%2F5o5m.jpg&hash=22d2ac5af218800c6004f20e8dbdfb0878001dd8)
28th Army can cover the south up to the Dnepr, and Smolensk. I'm guessing 43rd Army has a similar AO, maybe more focussed on the center.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg822%2F5275%2Fpkwd.jpg&hash=fa06d76e526e3ba3eade2e10caf02bee5be08912)
24th Army can cover the central and parts of the map up to the Mezha river.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg10%2F3673%2F0w4q.jpg&hash=3baf2b74f38f6a072f80028927d0baf2273bcec8)
I'm guessing 29th Army can cover the central and northern parts of the map up to the Mezha river, the same goes for the militia armies. 31st Army can cover every objective east of the initial 3 aside from Msistlavl. 30th Army can cover Rzhev, Demidov and Velizh and the area in between (their boundary is slightly north of Yartsevo).
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg197%2F5078%2Fyqes.JPG&hash=55afce43c1e0b8edc57c4aa680ab5eb19c607325)
Incidentally, Matrix has put this game on sale for the week (and its immediate predecessor Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets). $20 download, or $30 box, "up to 60% off". (The main game normally sells for $50 box for example.)
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1220/The.Deal.for.Epic.World.War.II.Games!
ComradeP...I bought and have been playing Battles in Normandy in last weeks Matrix sale. Very similar looking games but it seems AtD2 is at a different scale? Divisions have 6-8 units where in BiN they have 3-4. Are the turn and hex scales sizes different too or is this just something else altogether?
The scale depends on the scenario. In this case, it's 4 km/hex.
I'm not entirely sure what scale BiN is, probably 2 km/hex or 1 km/hex.
In the Decisive Battles series games, divisions have at most 4 units. That's also because the divisional integrity rating can't handle many more (it can handle 5, units added after that will always be counted as being within the radius as long as the first 4 units are within divisional integrity range of eachother).
Units in Battlefront, Kharkov: DotD and AtD2 have divisional artillery and support assets. The unit scale of regiment/battalion is still the same (there might be a company in some scenarios, but it isn't the standard scale).
Step standardization in terms of how strong a unit needs to be to get a certain number of steps isn't entirely strict, as technically speaking a Soviet Tank brigade should have about 3 steps whilst in most scenarios it has 4, and the same goes for two of the three US Combat Commands in an armored division, which usually consist of 2 battalions and not 3. The same goes for PzG regiments, which have 3 steps like they should in this scenario, but usually 4 in BiI/BiN.
The Panzer regiments are broken up into battalions in most cases, but aside from that and the addition of combat engineers, the number of combat units hasn't really been changed much. The corps support assets were also present in earlier games.
Also keep in mind that the Wehrmacht you're seeing in BiN has significantly downsized TOE's for its regular infantry divisions compared to the ones in 1941. My infantry divisions all still have their cavalry/motorized recon battalion, 3 battalion regiments and pioneers. In BiN, there are mostly mediocre to poor quality divisions around and your recon consists of a battalion of Fusiliere. The Panzer divisions are still in OK shape and reasonably comparable to these, though.
OK, I've long been eyeing these titles and now have to dive in at this sale price.
Question -- As I know you can't play ATD2 without also buying Kharkov, I'll have to spring for both, but should I just dive into ATD2 and kind of ignore Kharkov, as it sounds like ATD2 has a lot of improved features? Or is Kharkov still worthwhile in its own right?
I'm very curious to see how this will compare with the Decisive Campaigns games that I love so much. The SSG games obviously seem deeper in many respects Having gotten the hang of DC through much repeated (and very much enjoyed) play, I feel ready to 'graduate' to something deeper.
Thanks for the detailed and interesting AAR, ComradeP.
I love the mechanics in these games. The specific unit patches are nice additional touch. Yes, I just praised some WW2 wargames despite having been so sick of the WW2 overload for years. :o
My problem is that the supported screen resolution(s) are so low and fixed. If I'm playing on a decent sized modern monitor, everything looks so tiny. :( I'm guessing even these latest versions are still low-res?
sandman: The problem with Kharkov:DotD with AtD2 installed is that some of the changes introduced in the 1.2 patch/AtD2 sort of ruined the original Kharkov scenario, as Soviet movement ranges are now quite a bit better than they were initially. So I'd say playing Kharkov:DotD's stock scenario is not advised if you're using the final patch.
Although I like SSG's games quite a bit, each game system has problem with how shifts relate to difficult terrain.
Good units in difficult terrain can literally be impossible to attack. That's why scenarios where the defending units are worse than those of the attacker, but where the defender has more units like AtD2 work well whilst something like The Ardennes Offensive 5 for BiI doesn't. Scenarios with difficult terrain tend to involve "grinding" which means attacking a hex at 7:1 or so odds a few times during a turn to see if you can kill the defender.
In Operation Konrad, a fan-made scenario included in AtD2, I wiped out most of the Axis units when playing it against the designer. When playing it afterwards, when both sides dug in, I couldn't launch good attacks against entrenched stacks. By that time, both sides have many units that kill something at a 2 to 4 roll with Direct Fire, so it can be a real bloodbath.
As to the other scenarios included in AtD2: Kirovograd is a nice slugfest. Husky 2 has issues with difficult terrain, making most Allied artillery pretty useless. You have a lot of it, but you need to roll double 5's with most of them at the least to hit anything.
The SSG games and scenarios are overall quite interesting, but there are only a handful that really work well all the time and the various systems all have their issues that might annoy you after a while. The transition from boardgame to PC using more or less the same rules isn't always smooth. Still, I'd say Kharkov:DotD and AtD2 are worth buying.
As to fan-made scenarios for Kharkov: there are two battle of Soltsy scenarios, Operation Iskra and Guadalajara (Spanish Civil War). An unfinished Gothic Line scenario is also available, as is a remake of Rommel: Master of Battle/Kalach Bridge for BiI, but that also has some issues with the Soviets having more mobility than they should and being able to use special attacks to Kamikaze German units to death.
It's a pity Battlefront wasn't really liked by many, as it has some excellent scenarios.
If you haven't purchased the games yet, I'll update this AAR to at least turn 10 this week, so you can see how things go and if you like the system.
-
Nefaro: I've never had any issues with the screen resolution. The screenshots I've taken thus far were copied to Paint and thus lost most of their quality. I'll try to use Paint.net for the actual AAR to keep the resolution intact (I'll set quality to 50% or so to keep the screenshots from being larger than 100 kb each).
As an example, BiI and AtD2 look like this on my 24 inch monitor at 1280x1024 (the highest the games support). The AtD 2 screenshot was decreased to 50% quality, but I'm not seeing much of a difference. Not tiny at all in my opinion.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg23%2F1234%2Fh546.jpg&hash=30d41cd701b2e8caf6c9ff658f75e5b6a0eb6f47)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg809%2F8317%2Fk4ok.jpg&hash=efc3ad1369639fc0c3e37140c0705aca5df9765a)
Quote from: ComradeP on October 02, 2013, 12:15:34 AM
Nefaro: I've never had any issues with the screen resolution. The screenshots I've taken thus far were copied to Paint and thus lost most of their quality. I'll try to use Paint.net for the actual AAR to keep the resolution intact (I'll set quality to 50% or so to keep the screenshots from being larger than 100 kb each).
As an example, BiI and AtD2 look like this on my 24 inch monitor at 1280x1024 (the highest the games support). The AtD 2 screenshot was decreased to 50% quality, but I'm not seeing much of a difference. Not tiny at all in my opinion.
If it supports 1280x1024 then it can't be too bad. Although the counters in those screenshots do look a bit smaller than I recall from the original title of the series. I must be getting old. Or I had the original running at 1024x768 oh so long ago.
The Eastern front shot looks nice but the Battles in Italy one is painful. The background terrain blends in with the counters too much. Luckily the ones on sale this week are the better looking one. :)
It probably just looks like that because the US counter background is a sort of yellow-brown-green camouflage print, which happens to be similar to the background colour for hill hexes. The other counters stand out just fine.
In AtD2, at 1024 the screen covers 27 hexes on the X axis, at 1280 it covers 35, so it zooms out a bit but everything is still visible.
It probably won't look too small using the smaller resolution on my notebook. Now to figure out if I want to drop $40 on the whole AtD setup. ???
I have both Korsun Pocket, and BiN, but both games give me eyestrain as the hexes are so small. Anyway, ComradeP :) You've made a nice start on your AAR, and I'm looking forward to following it. Thanks for sharing it.
Quote from: Nefaro on October 02, 2013, 05:38:09 PM
It probably won't look too small using the smaller resolution on my notebook. Now to figure out if I want to drop $40 on the whole AtD setup. ???
Better hurry, it's already Thursday! ;)
In effect, the sale would mean you're getting AtD2 for free.
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 03, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on October 02, 2013, 05:38:09 PM
It probably won't look too small using the smaller resolution on my notebook. Now to figure out if I want to drop $40 on the whole AtD setup. ???
Better hurry, it's already Thursday! ;)
In effect, the sale would mean you're getting AtD2 for free.
Argh!
Sometimes I hate all these sales. Now, if I get it, I still probably won't even load it up for a long time.
I suppose that's why they have these sales in the first place.. to get you to buy stuff you won't even use in awhile. I feel like a woman seeing 'Sale!' signs in a store. Don't need it, but it's "on sale" so I
must have it! ;D
Meh. I have way too much yet to play. My willpower has held. Besides, I never quite finished playing all the Korsun Pocket scenarios so if I have the itch, I'll just finish that one first and wait for another sale.
Quote from: Nefaro on October 03, 2013, 10:13:47 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 03, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on October 02, 2013, 05:38:09 PM
It probably won't look too small using the smaller resolution on my notebook. Now to figure out if I want to drop $40 on the whole AtD setup. ???
Better hurry, it's already Thursday! ;)
In effect, the sale would mean you're getting AtD2 for free.
Argh!
Sometimes I hate all these sales. Now, if I get it, I still probably won't even load it up for a long time.
I suppose that's why they have these sales in the first place.. to get you to buy stuff you won't even use in awhile. I feel like a woman seeing 'Sale!' signs in a store. Don't need it, but it's "on sale" so I must have it! ;D
Meh. I have way too much yet to play. My willpower has held. Besides, I never quite finished playing all the Korsun Pocket scenarios so if I have the itch, I'll just finish that one first and wait for another sale.
<sniff sniff> I'm so proud of you right now! :'(
I would say I'm proud, except I'm pretty sure I bought "...Disaster" and maybe Dnepr2 during a puny Christmas sale a while back. ;)
It was tempting me a few times yesterday, but I knew there was other stuff coming up that I'd be getting so that kept me honest. :D
Damn addict.
My eye is on CCW2.. I'm safe from Command due to the price.. .GTX Graphics for FSX is another temptation, even with it's very high price (because I do enjoy flying)!
Apologies for the delays, UoC DLC 2 betatesting is taking up a lot of my time.
Initial Soviet dispositions at the frontline, so you have an idea what I'm facing. I can't close in with most of these units on turn 1, so knowing where they are doesn't feel like cheating to me: they'll be somewhere else when I get to their starting locations.
We're playing a variant where the Soviets have a higher refit rating (20% instead of 10%), and better C&C and supply bursts at the cost of a lower OP penalty reduction (I only just discovered that, I thought the variant had only benefits for the Soviets). I think the higher refit rating and the better C&C are worth the lower OP penalty reduction aside from situations where lots of my units end up next to his (that explains why some of his stacks didn't withdraw when threatened with encirclement by adjacent units) when defending, but I prefer counterattacking so should we switch sides after this, I'll play the normal version.
His OP penalty reduction is now just 10%, but his C&C is quite a bit better: Rifle Corps now have 35/14, Mechanized Corps 40/20 (better than my corps!), at least one Army has 30/9, the rest seem to have 40/12. Fronts have 50/10. All rating are stationary/mobile.
As you can see, Soviet HQ's are quite far to the rear, maybe even unrealistically so considering the map scale. That means that Luftwaffe interdiction can work like an on/off switch for Soviet C&C early on, which is why having better command radii helps.
North:
Fairly weak forces in the difficult terrain north of the Dvina, which will still be difficult to dislodge. Strong forces east of Vitebsk (and a cavalry division at Demidov further east). 22nd Army HQ is in Nevel, an inconveniently located (for both defender and attacker) objective.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg407%2F6501%2Fy6ry.jpg&hash=54cf3049291b52095fdd1beb3561bc2af2fd626e)
Center:
Strong forces between Vitebsk and Orsha, particularly directly north of Orsha.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg850%2F5684%2F5tww.jpg&hash=c939d76e6efe192bb9aeaab3e9a307adf3f5784f)
South:
(Numerically) Weak forces west of the Dnepr and between Orsha and Mogilev. Strong forces south and east of Mogilev, including a half strength mechanized corps east of Mstislavl (where 21st Army HQ is at the eastern edge of the screenshot).
4th Army units are the unentrenched remnants west of the Dnepr.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg39%2F940%2Flule.jpg&hash=6602cdfd7e8738cdec7dbaee25c60ee69a70368c)
My starting positions:
North:
Various Panzer and motorized divisions have just arrived on the scene on the road network in the area. They're full strength as they've had time to rest and recover whilst waiting for the infantry to get closer after the opening encirclement battles. There's just one regular infantry division on the map at the moment. The first infantry divisions to arrive have mostly been walking after the motorized units and have seen only limited combat thus far, the units arriving later were the units that actually cleaned up the pockets and some of those are not full strength.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg849%2F9971%2F1nu8.jpg&hash=f252eedfaf63f2d2484d7d6417975ae041d5a18c)
South:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg542%2F8580%2Fbzhz.jpg&hash=d93cec71847c501b5dd16c6c9902d5b6a8321e9a)
Quote from: ComradeP on October 06, 2013, 07:32:04 AM
Apologies for the delays, UoC DLC 2 betatesting is taking up a lot of my time.
Whoa! Can you reveal what the campaign will be?!
Barbarossa, the summer/fall 1941 campaign and a few winter scenarios. Not as many scenarios as the Red Turn DLC due to having fewer battles to work with, but still enough to make it a solid DLC. The DLC's close to completion, so a release in the next few months (November-December) seems very likely.
Work on UoC 2 has already begun as well.
Note: screenshots are taken using the replay feature, which means the end of the Axis turn screenshots actually show the situation at the start of the Soviet turn and the end of the Soviet turn screenshots are taken at the start of the next turn (so they show the situation at the start of turn 2 in this case).
The initial plan is to move 3rd Panzer Group across the Dvina to outflank the Soviet defensive positions and to move 2nd Panzer Group across the Dnepr to find weak spots in the Soviet defensive line in the area. The destruction of Soviet units in the south currently has priority over the destruction of the units in the north.
The opening in the north is below average in some ways, as Vitebsk wasn't captured, but numerous Soviet units were destroyed/encircled, and not capturing Vitebsk also prevents an earlier AO expansion for the Soviet units east of Vitebsk (those units can't move forwards until Vitebsk falls)
Leg, horse and motorized leg movement type units can move across major rivers without using a bridge, motorized and tracked units require a bridge.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg208%2F4522%2Fmxmc.jpg&hash=a7d82629f730eeb8f6352e3b100d70c711c84054)
Near Orsha, the two Soviet Rifle divisions in the woods southwest of the city have suffered significant losses and will be largely destroyed soon. As 2nd Panzer Group needs to get across the Dnepr, I'm not moving much closer to Orsha until a solid bridgehead has been established.
Around Mogilev, progress was excellent. The special attacks were used to destroy 4th Airborne Corps and several units in the Mogilev area. 4th Army has been destroyed, including the Army artillery regiment that often escapes as it can only be reached by one unit, requiring careful positioning.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg30%2F139%2Foz4s.jpg&hash=9f7fb54f562f0a8491792156d772e94730900696)
The Soviets reinforce Vitebsk and form a line in the north and south along the minor/major rivers during their turn.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg580%2F4259%2Fkrfj.jpg&hash=079c43ebdafcbaaa84b69cfce25aa3f98b18cb4d)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg706%2F3185%2Fh1dj.jpg&hash=31921cd859f898084647e9141e97065fcf1e0877)
The shellholes on the map are artillery residue which can appear after artillery fire or combat, it gives an OP penalty and will go away after 1 or 2 turns depending on whether it's heavy or light.
North:
14th Motorized arrives, all of my motorized/Panzer divisions are now on the map.
Vitebsk falls, thankfully I got good rolls. In the DB series, in order to get an overrun when rolling double dice (there's a double dice chance when more than a certain number of steps are in a hex, the chance moves from 25% to 50% to 75% to 100% for each additional step beyond the threshold), the first roll needed to be an overrun result. In Kharkov:DotD and AtD2, an overrun also occurs if the second die roll is an overrun result. Example: I needed a 6 to get an overrun and be able to attack again. In the DB series, I'd need (say) 6 and 4. Now, a 4 and 6 result also works.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg547%2F6760%2Fshlj.jpg&hash=dbcd67a2c224483ca55fe02399753c95269901f3)
South:
The 1st Cavalry division and the first of many infantry division reinforcements arrive. Initially, I'll get about 2-3 infantry divisions as reinforcements per turn on average.
Mogilev falls (good rolls again) and a bridgehead across the Dnepr is established. My opponent may not have been aware of how far my units could move across the major river.
The Soviets have 3 T-34 battalions, which have a good Tank shock and can be dangerous. One was destroyed this turn, a good start.
Urban combat is ugly, so I'm happy that the cities were taken with fairly light losses.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg837.imageshack.us%2Fimg837%2F456%2Fnnfh.jpg&hash=180fdd02be2445e3efbb6d40cfe2358d90c6f9df)
Soviet:
North:
The Soviets have entrenched the encircled units north of the Dvina in the marshes, I'll keep a screening force there and will let them run out of supply. There's a 30% "attrition" chance for supply, if the unit fails the check it loses 1 supply jerrycan. The encircled Soviets have 3 each. Attacking them automatically removes a supply jerrycan, but attacking them is not worth it at the moment.
The Soviets form a line along the Dvina. The Dvina is, however, too long to defend adequately, and future turns will show the Germans can use their mobility to exploit that.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg822%2F576%2Fttxo.jpg&hash=709f979feb0a7ec5abf3f2f4ab4d48cd9aa3fd44)
South:
The Soviets leave a division in Mogilev and withdraw eastwards.
There's a "counterbattery" spotting chance when artillery fires, which makes artillery visible to the enemy. The VVS bombs and destroys one of my artillery units this turn, a fairly good one (KIA at a 3) which is unfortunate but I'll get plenty of artillery later on. There's very little you can do to prevent the destruction of artillery by air strikes, aside from moving the artillery after firing (each move decreases the spotting chance by 25%) placing AA in or adjacent to the hex so the Soviets need to roll a 5 instead of a 6. Luckily, the Soviets don't get many air strikes.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg198.imageshack.us%2Fimg198%2F3963%2F0bqk.jpg&hash=61f79ec0c4c38f7a934f0c4dfaf457df978f709c)
The red figures with a 1 next to them are Soviet detachments lasting 1 turn. Blue variants are mine.
Turn 3:
North:
The Soviets have abandoned the area across the Dvina north of Vitebsk, a wise choice. The Soviet line is slowly moving eastwards.
14th Motorized is driving towards Nevel, the other mobile units try to lengthen the Soviet flank to such an extent that a withdrawal will be made.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg28%2F3376%2F2qwu.jpg&hash=433e8630e50ea24ed31847958220d429fdae9fcc)
Center:
Several infantry divisions begin to put pressure on Soviet positions near Orsha.
The bridgehead is widened. Interior lines are now open east of the Dnepr, which will allow rapid redeployment to probe and attack weakspots to unhinge the Soviet line.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg545%2F3432%2F6r17.jpg&hash=c12f6600692275adf6078e299cc4f2bc5d9f6aa3)
South:
An infantry division moves across the Dnepr in the south. You can cross here on turn 1, but I prefer concentrating my mobile units. Strike with the fist and not with the fingers spread.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg5%2F7323%2Fy8g8.jpg&hash=2fbcfc76dae5ba473da9e3908f6e54e840cd09bf)
Soviet:
North:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg812%2F6493%2Fbh8p.jpg&hash=e6a1db7456a812e739df889d674f8b2272e6f519)
Center:
The Soviets form a fairly good line east of my bridgehead, but it can't be strong everywhere.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg208%2F3975%2Fbytg.jpg&hash=464c33bae14a46d90565d94dbc0bc30e0b129b22)
South:
My infantry and Das Reich face no opposition for the moment.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg59%2F9710%2Fxcx5.jpg&hash=28518a66116cc317d2403f276a615b9b31bc4311)
Quote from: ComradeP on October 06, 2013, 11:19:34 AM
Barbarossa, the summer/fall 1941 campaign and a few winter scenarios. Not as many scenarios as the Red Turn DLC due to having fewer battles to work with, but still enough to make it a solid DLC. The DLC's close to completion, so a release in the next few months (November-December) seems very likely.
Work on UoC 2 has already begun as well.
Huh. I'm kind of surprised, since Barb is generally regarded as an overrun -- not sure how to translate that properly to UoC, but considering the awesome previous two entries I'm not complaining. :) I was thinking a central or northern drive (post-Barb) would be more likely.
Loving the AAR by the way. :)