GrogHeads Forum

I just can't seem to break into a new Paradox game these days despite my burning desire. I desperately want to learn EUIV, Crusader Kings II and HOI3.  Really, I totally want to play all three of them...I actually day dream about it. But then when I go to sit down to play, I end up loading and playing something much more mindless.

It is very frustrating to truly want to play something, but to then to never try due to a lack of patience in learning the system, and an unwillingness to play and do poorly as a result of being an inexperienced player. This has always been a real problem with me and gaming, I hate losing, I hate doing poorly. I hate losing territory, battles or men simply because I don't know how to play. I strongly feel this way, even though it is just a game. What is wrong with me?

Anyway, I've played paradox games to death before. Most notably, Hearts of Iron 2, EUIII and EU: Rome, so it is not as if I've never been able to learn the paradox system, and I know once I do, I really enjoy it.

Do any of you guys have any suggestions for getting over this hump? I desperately want to play these games.

Nothing wrong with you mate, you sound like me.

I'm the same with HOI3, which has been on my machine for several months. I keep going into it, usually inspired by other peoples AAR's, determined to get into it. But there is something which just not register with me, for some inexplicable reason.

I'll keeping trying in the hope that it 'clicks', but it is very frustrating.

Is there a multi-player option you could set a time for a game with some other guys and force yourself to participate that way?

Count me in....have bought all these games and just sit and stare at them...however, going to try and get into crusader kings more since that is material I really should enjoy.

I think one thing I wish these games would do is not use ratings/numbers so much.....instead give them meaningful descriptions and values that would help non-numbers guys understand things.  For example, when they rate a trait or something within the game, it always gives something a +2 or -2, etc.....why can't it just be it gives them a "Low", "Medium", or "High" advantage?  I think if it took out the spreadsheet numbers and replaced with meaningful stuff like this, I likely would understand it better:)  However, I do realize some people like all those numbers:)

Quote from: bob48 on February 16, 2014, 06:50:32 AM
I'm the same with HOI3, which has been on my machine for several months. I keep going into it, usually inspired by other peoples AAR's, determined to get into it. But there is something which just not register with me, for some inexplicable reason.

I'll keeping trying in the hope that it 'clicks', but it is very frustrating.

The problem is, I don't really even try. I sit there, I stare at the title in my steam library and then I move on. I usually don't even run the game. Sometimes I will, but then I will stop at the paradox menu window that pops up, like running into a brick wall.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 16, 2014, 06:59:55 AM
Is there a multi-player option you could set a time for a game with some other guys and force yourself to participate that way?

I think I really need someone in the room with me. It's sort of like having a buddy with you at the gym for motivation.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 16, 2014, 06:59:55 AM
Is there a multi-player option you could set a time for a game with some other guys and force yourself to participate that way?

Not sure, but MD has offered to give me some help with it, and I'm sure that Geek would do the same. I have to wait to be in the right mood to try.

I'm am, however, totally immersed in learning and playing 'Heroes of the Blitzkrieg' at the moment  :)

I've only played CKII from that list and struggled with the same things trying to get into it.  You definitely have to be in the right mind set before starting to play/learn it.  How you get there, well that is up to you.  For me with CKII I watched a number of awesome "Let's Play" videos online.  Not only did this really help teach me the game and give me some confidence that I knew what I was doing but also got me in the right mindset to play.

Same here as all above.

Finally just set aside 3 hours of clear time with no distractions and started up EU IV. Picked a country I'm familiar with, Castille/Spain and just started playing on the slow setting. Used the hint system, poked at stuff to see what happens. It turns out most of EU IV is not that different than EU III, except the trade system.
I've not got about 40 hours in and starting to enjoy it. Still have no real idea how the trade system works but I'm making money so there's that....

Anyway, you need a time when you are relaxed, have lot of time and no distractions to get over that first hump. Once you are playing it will get easier to jump in and out for shorter periods.

Next up for me if HOI III.... before HOI IV comes out!  :P

I love Paradox games and my favorites are Victoria 2 and Europa IV. I have tired to get into Crusader Kings but can't seem to. It did take a while for Paradox games to 'click' with me but they are great fun once you figure it all out.
My bigger problem now is that when I sit down to play ANY GAME I can't seem to really get into it. But I think we already have a thread(s) on that somewhere else.  :P

I had the same problem myself and still do with HOI3.

I found EUIV to be the most approachable of the three.

Pick a beginner country, either Ottomans or Castille and then focus on the missions system. Pick a mission and figure out what you need to do to achieve it, concentrate on that and don't worry too much about the bigger picture.

If something bad or annoying happens because you didn't really know what you were doing you'll probably have spotted what you did wrong (i.e. you've learned a bit more about that part of the game) don't feel bad about starting again from the last save and doing things different this time round.

In the end you probably will have to enjoy losing to start with, if you feel you have to always know how to make the optimum move in each circumstance you'll not get much more than a year or two into a game before being stalled by analysis paralysis, or giving up because you can't learn and apply every part of the game to your best advantage.

CKII can also be great fun when you are losing  :)

Definitely agree with the idea that you have to be in the right frame of mind for Pdox games.  Because most are so open-ended, if you're mentally tired (and after a long day at work, who isn't?), it's very easy to boot up any Pdox game, stare at the screen, throw up your hands, and go play something where you blow s**t up instead.

Ii just want to throw in my plug for the greatness of Crusader Kings II, and why it's worth the investment if time learning to play.  Paradox is probably my favorite publisher - I'd count HoI, Victoria, and EU among my favorite games of all time.  I'm increasingly convinced CKII with all the expansions  is P'dox's best game to date.

I know 'read the manual' type advice is not too inspiring, but I have to highly recommend this in-depth guide to CKII out together by Meneth.  It's available as a PDF -- and is beautifully illustrated to boot:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?599744-CK-II-Userguide-by-Meneth-and-Novapaddy (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?599744-CK-II-Userguide-by-Meneth-and-Novapaddy)


P'dox's own CKII manual is pretty useless.  This one really explains the game mechanics, what strategies you should employ and why.  CKII and EUIV both do a pretty good job with tooltips -- the Pdox GUI has come a long way since the early days of HoI and EU.  Still, esp with CKII, there's so much going on under the hood that you really can't be aware of until someone tells you about it -- hence why I think Meneths guide will really help anyone who wants to get into CKII.

An alternate view....perhaps it's societal, something many of us suffer; the lure of instant gratification, which permeates all aspects of our world today.  We want the payoff, the kick, the juice right now, we don't want to wait, we don't want to cultivate the necessary skills and devote the necessary time to engage ourselves in these sort of more complex games (i.e. CK2, HOI3) in order to enjoy them. Maybe I'm over-complicating this, but then....? Just saying.

Quote from: Rayfer on February 16, 2014, 08:50:33 AM
An alternate view....perhaps it's societal, something many of us suffer; the lure of instant gratification, which permeates all aspects of our world today.  We want the payoff, the kick, the juice right now, we don't want to wait, we don't want to cultivate the necessary skills and devote the necessary time to engage ourselves in these sort of more complex games (i.e. CK2, HOI3) in order to enjoy them. Maybe I'm over-complicating this, but then....? Just saying.

Oh I agree with this completely! That's why I force myself every once in a while to sit down and concentrate on a complex game. I feel I need to do this to keep me from becoming a mindless zombie..  :P

I had the same problem with the Achtung Panzer Operation Star series by Graviteam in the beginning.
The manual sucked and the patching process was completely foreign to me.

One day I decided I was going to take a week off of work and not leave my PC(minus sleep and meals) till I mastered everything it took to get the game up and running and learn at least the basics.

The first couple days were pure frustration and I almost gave up a few times except for the fact that I was at least making some progress every day.

Perseverance is the only advice I have.
In this day and age of instant gratification,determination and staying power are your friends.

I don't know who he is or how he has the time but there is a guy on you tube called Arumba and the library of let's plays he has is phenomenal.... he played as Venice for 70 videos had trouble with Austria so then played again as them for 70 videos, he has Spain, England, he posts a new video every 3 hours..... he has literally weeks of ck2 material for most nations and then the game of thrones mods.... I wouldn't have got into eu4 without him.... I'm not watching to be entertained but to learn..... why and how do I get the curia, why should I vassalise and not conquer, how to trade..... everything you need is in the vids, and instead of 90 minute slogs they're just 20 mins each.... I sacrificed an hour a night for a week and by the end of that I couldn't wait to get started

I have the same problem.. waiting for stuff to happen.. LOL. .my 15 year old just plays for hours on end.. Everytime I go into the playroom, EUIV or CK2 or Vicky 2 is on his screen. He always seems to be doing other stuff at the same time (on his Ipad or texting with friends).

Maybe that is the secret, multi-task when playing these games, and it keeps you moving.

He loves history, I think in part from playing these games.

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 16, 2014, 08:46:43 AM
I know 'read the manual' type advice is not too inspiring, but I have to highly recommend this in-depth guide to CKII out together by Meneth.  It's available as a PDF -- and is beautifully illustrated to boot:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?599744-CK-II-Userguide-by-Meneth-and-Novapaddy (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?599744-CK-II-Userguide-by-Meneth-and-Novapaddy)

Nice, thanks for linking this! I'll have to try CKII yet again!

As much time as I sunk into HOI2, you would think HOI3 was a no brainer.  Not true.  I did my usual, play as a minor country to learn the fiddly bits, and went through a whole game learning very little and dissatisfied with the results.  I haven't gone back.  That makes me sad for two reasons 1) because I love HOI2 so much it hurts me to know that I can't wrap my head around 3 and 2) that I am like you JH in that I hate to lose at anything or perform poorly at something I know I should kick a$$ at.  The worst of the bunch is the Europa Universalis games.  I've tried 3 and the Northern Crown expansion and for the life of me, can't figure it out.  I haven't watched any Let's Play videos and I don't have the manuals for either game, so, there is that handicap, but I am reasonably intelligent and these games aren't rocket science.

As for CK2, I am not sure what about it kept me going back, but, I have played many enjoyable hours at it.  There are many things that bug the crap out of me about it, but, the story that it insinuates into your mind while you are playing certainly holds a charm to it that doesn't happen for me in other games.  I don't put in nearly as much time with it as I would like, but, my available time is not what it used to be.

And if you would like JH, as bob suggested, I would be glad to set some time aside to walk through these games with you.  My lack of knowledge is a handicap, but, I don't mind failing with a friend.  At least we can commiserate :)

Quote from: MetalDog on February 16, 2014, 09:44:52 AM

And if you would like JH, as bob suggested, I would be glad to set some time aside to walk through these games with you.  My lack of knowledge is a handicap, but, I don't mind failing with a friend.  At least we can commiserate :)

Deal. Skype? Let's PM and work out the details...maybe we can try HOI3, too?

Modify message (  Re: Breaking into the great Paradox abyss )

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 16, 2014, 09:53:56 AM

Quote from: MetalDog on February 16, 2014, 09:44:52 AM

And if you would like JH, as bob suggested, I would be glad to set some time aside to walk through these games with you.  My lack of knowledge is a handicap, but, I don't mind failing with a friend.  At least we can commiserate :)

Deal. Skype? Let's PM and work out the details...maybe we can try HOI3, too?

PM sent

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 16, 2014, 06:41:30 AM
I just can't seem to break into a new Paradox game these days despite my burning desire. I desperately want to learn EUIV, Crusader Kings II and HOI3.  Really, I totally want to play all three of them...I actually day dream about it. But then when I go to sit down to play, I end up loading and playing something much more mindless.

It is very frustrating to truly want to play something, but to then to never try due to a lack of patience in learning the system, and an unwillingness to play and do poorly as a result of being an inexperienced player. This has always been a real problem with me and gaming, I hate losing, I hate doing poorly. I hate losing territory, battles or men simply because I don't know how to play. I strongly feel this way, even though it is just a game. What is wrong with me?

Anyway, I've played paradox games to death before. Most notably, Hearts of Iron 2, EUIII and EU: Rome, so it is not as if I've never been able to learn the paradox system, and I know once I do, I really enjoy it.

Do any of you guys have any suggestions for getting over this hump? I desperately want to play these games.

I know exactly how you feel. Although I have purchased nearly all the Paradox games including the first Europa Universalis through Europa Universalis IV, I just can't get into the most recent releases. Unfortunately I have no suggestions.  :(

Quote from: MetalDog on February 16, 2014, 09:44:52 AM
As much time as I sunk into HOI2, you would think HOI3 was a no brainer.  Not true.  I did my usual, play as a minor country to learn the fiddly bits, and went through a whole game learning very little and dissatisfied with the results.  I haven't gone back.  That makes me sad for two reasons 1) because I love HOI2 so much it hurts me to know that I can't wrap my head around 3 and 2) that I am like you JH in that I hate to lose at anything or perform poorly at something I know I should kick a$$ at.  The worst of the bunch is the Europa Universalis games.  I've tried 3 and the Northern Crown expansion and for the life of me, can't figure it out.  I haven't watched any Let's Play videos and I don't have the manuals for either game, so, there is that handicap, but I am reasonably intelligent and these games aren't rocket science....

I think EU2 and HOI2 were the high points of me being interested in actually playing Paradox games.

I remember trying to get into the original EU...IIRC it came out at the same time as the original Shogun TW. I tried for a few weeks with EU but ultimately gave up. I just couldn't get it and then Shogun became an obsession. Since then, the only other Paradox game I've tried has been Victoria II, which also left me cold.

I want to try EUIV and EU: Rome because they look great but I think I will probably have the same reaction to them.

Quote from: Barthheart on February 16, 2014, 08:54:37 AM

Quote from: Rayfer on February 16, 2014, 08:50:33 AM
An alternate view....perhaps it's societal, something many of us suffer; the lure of instant gratification, which permeates all aspects of our world today.  We want the payoff, the kick, the juice right now, we don't want to wait, we don't want to cultivate the necessary skills and devote the necessary time to engage ourselves in these sort of more complex games (i.e. CK2, HOI3) in order to enjoy them. Maybe I'm over-complicating this, but then....? Just saying.

Oh I agree with this completely! That's why I force myself every once in a while to sit down and concentrate on a complex game. I feel I need to do this to keep me from becoming a mindless zombie..  :P

^ This

Especially because my generation is all about getting things instantly.

You could always fire up some Rome II!  ;D

I haven't bought any Paradox titles, primarily due to fears that impressive as the nation building titles might be, the AI might break down completely after I invested dozens of hours into a game.

I do, however, understand the wall you're running into. As has been mentioned earlier, it might be due to a sort of instant gratification requirement that you might get after playing more casual games for a while before jumping into a complex game or wargame. Going from Panzer Corps to something like Tiller's Moscow '42 really doesn't work for me as I just can't muster the required focus.

Thinking about games in advance might also spoil the experience a bit, because the things you thought about might not be possible or might take a lot of time.

Maybe you could consider trying to think about what you want to achieve and how you're going to do it, shortly before turning on the PC and actually being able to do it. Don't force yourself to play a game and "enjoy" it though, that never works. There are days when more complex games are less enjoyable. If you're tired after a 50 hour or so week, carefully considering what the long term effects of a certain action might be in a complex game might not be what you need. On the other hand, it can also be relaxing.

Quote from: TheCommandTent on February 16, 2014, 12:51:45 PM

Quote from: Barthheart on February 16, 2014, 08:54:37 AM

Quote from: Rayfer on February 16, 2014, 08:50:33 AM
An alternate view....perhaps it's societal, something many of us suffer; the lure of instant gratification, which permeates all aspects of our world today.  We want the payoff, the kick, the juice right now, we don't want to wait, we don't want to cultivate the necessary skills and devote the necessary time to engage ourselves in these sort of more complex games (i.e. CK2, HOI3) in order to enjoy them. Maybe I'm over-complicating this, but then....? Just saying.

Oh I agree with this completely! That's why I force myself every once in a while to sit down and concentrate on a complex game. I feel I need to do this to keep me from becoming a mindless zombie..  :P

^ This

Especially because my generation is all about getting things instantly.

I didn't see it as a generational thing at all....it includes many of us from all different generations; young, old and all that's in between.

I just played about 2 hours of HOI3. I replaced some ministers, started up some production, began research and played around with diplomacy. I've reduced IC waste, started influencing nations toward my faction and seem to generally be making progress. The main thing I did not even try to touch was my military OOB and organization. I know it is totally disorganized and ineffective as is, but I have no idea what my armies should look like organizationally, what kind of divisions and brigades they should be composed of, how they should be positioned and which HQs they should be attached to. I think this is my biggest hurdle in getting to be a semi-competent player. Most everything else seems generally intuitive. 

Something I thought of earlier today while I was out is the time investment.  As has been mentioned, when you sit down to play, the thought of starting such a time intensive game just wears you out before you even start.  It's happened to me plenty and I love CK2.  I also know that mood plays a large part in what I play.  Sometimes I have to be in the mood to start a big Paradox game.  However, once I get it going, it seems to be all I can think about.  I find it best to have a couple of hours with nothing planned before I sit down to play.  That way, if I get caught up, it's no big deal to find that four or five hours have elapsed.  But I can't see myself firing up one of these games and just playing for an hour or so.  Not that I need immersion, but, it just kind of ruins things if I don't have the time I want to devote to what I am doing.

Jarhead:

This is an easy fix.   Just watch some Let's Play series on CK2 or EU4, whichever you want to do most.  I believe there are also numerous tutorial-style videos on YouTube in which the creator explains how things work and their strategy as they go. 

I've found that watching some of these puts me into the mood to play and primes me on many of the little details that I wouldn't have figured out for awhile, or that I had forgotten if returning to the game.  At some point you'll start thinking of what you would do in a certain situation, as opposed to what the creator did, and you'll be ready.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 16, 2014, 02:35:33 PM
I just played about 2 hours of HOI3. I replaced some ministers, started up some production, began research and played around with diplomacy. I've reduced IC waste, started influencing nations toward my faction and seem to generally be making progress. The main thing I did not even try to touch was my military OOB and organization. I know it is totally disorganized and ineffective as is, but I have no idea what my armies should look like organizationally, what kind of divisions and brigades they should be composed of, how they should be positioned and which HQs they should be attached to. I think this is my biggest hurdle in getting to be a semi-competent player. Most everything else seems generally intuitive.

that all depends on who you are and what year it is

Quote from: undercovergeek on February 16, 2014, 04:25:48 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 16, 2014, 02:35:33 PM
I just played about 2 hours of HOI3. I replaced some ministers, started up some production, began research and played around with diplomacy. I've reduced IC waste, started influencing nations toward my faction and seem to generally be making progress. The main thing I did not even try to touch was my military OOB and organization. I know it is totally disorganized and ineffective as is, but I have no idea what my armies should look like organizationally, what kind of divisions and brigades they should be composed of, how they should be positioned and which HQs they should be attached to. I think this is my biggest hurdle in getting to be a semi-competent player. Most everything else seems generally intuitive.

that all depends on who you are and what year it is

Germany - March 1936. Once I know how to build, tweak and move units around organizationally, I'll be ok. I just have no idea where to start. If someone knows of a good "Let's play" video dealing with this aspect of the game, do tell.

I thought HOI3 was a bit of a mess and not very easy to get into.  Didn't play it much.  You're probably starting with the most difficult & frustrating one.

There is an alternative answer to this:  uninstall the game.  In the end it's just entertainment and if it doesn't grab you then move on to something else.  Granted, this isn't a very positive approach, but this is what you do for fun - it shouldn't weigh on your mind.

This attitude keeps me from spending on Steam sales.  I look at something like EUIV and think, "Wow, it's only £xx, I really should have that game".  Then I consider the likelihood that I will actually learn how to play the game and decide that I shouldn't buy.  Like most of us I have a limited time in which to play and so have to be efficient.

BTW this is in no way a criticism of the games under discussion.  In fact I think that my refusal to go down the route of buying them and then failing to play them displays  a kind of respect.

Inspired by Game of Thrones (books), I bought CKII, but could not get to grips with it.  I'm convinced that it is a great game, but in the end I have several other games that I'm in the process of exploring and I can't afford the time to learn this one as well.  So I just uninstalled it.

To my mind this situation is a bit like the evolution of friendships as you get older.  You have friends who move away, get married, have kids.  Some of those people you keep in contact with without  considering the effort.  Others, you keep thinking, " I really must..."  But if it's an effortthen surely the friendship isn't that strong?  There should be no shame in accepting that - and a game isn't bothered either way.

Ted, there is much in what you say that I agree with. On the side of the coin, I am a board wargamer by preference, and have been since the early days of AH and SPI (late 1960') and a figure gamer before that.

PC games have advantages - no setting up and putting away - takes no space as such, but there is something rewarding in pushing counters around a map. However, your point still applies. Buy a game and then find its really not worth the time or effort to learn and play. Fortunately, a lot of publishers now give you the means to download the rules, or even a P&P sample so you can try before you buy. All the games I have purchased in recent years have been chosen by doing that.
I guess its the non electronic version of a PC demo.

Plus, like most of us, funds are limited, and its often a choice between buying a PC game or a board game. In most cases, its the board game that I buy.

Sorry - I do ramble on at times. Its an age thing y'know :)

I've also recently tried getting used to HOI3.  I'm used to playing HOI2, and then I noticed the big changes with HOI3 - very similar to HOI1.

I've been trying the German Submarine interdiction strategy from user 'blu emu' (http://blu%20emu') that I had used on HOI2. 
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?264824-Are-Submarines-Worthless (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?264824-Are-Submarines-Worthless)


I couldn't find him playing the same strategy with HOI3, but I did find this post

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?516989-Listening-to-D%F6nitz-a-submarine-oriented-Germany-AAR (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?516989-Listening-to-D%F6nitz-a-submarine-oriented-Germany-AAR)

Paradox titles got  a lot more complicated and refined after the days of Europa Universalis 2, which is when I got started on them.  They suck up a lot of time.  HOI3 does not run well on my spare laptop that I bring for business trips, so I usually resort to HOI2.

JH, I was in the same boat as you regarding HOI3 a few months ago and finally decided to just do it, as they say. I wouldn't call myself an HOI3 expert, but I have spent a good amount of time organizing my OOB in preparation for Case White and then the invasion of the west. I pretty much exclusively play Germany 1936 in all the HOI games. If you want to Skype some time, I'd be happy to load up the game and run you through forming and reforming divisions, corps, armies, setting AI objectives, etc. Heck, I think it's even possible to play the same country cooperatively.

I've also been in the same boat with CK2 and just decided to dive in a couple of weeks ago. I played heavily for a couple of days and got through about 15 years of game time. My relatives keep declaring that I'm not fit to rule and demanding that I abdicate my petty throne in favor of this cousin or that. I stopped playing and one of these days I'll get around to asking on the CK2 forum why this keeps happening!

I'll be out of town starting tomorrow night up until next Saturday, so if we Skype it will have to be after we get back.

After getting Victoria II when it first came out and buying all expansions and DLC's, I'm finally getting around to playing the game after I watched these very helpful "Let's Learn" videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Multimediaphile/videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/Multimediaphile/videos)

Watching some online videos for these type of games really helps you to get going on playing and understanding the game.

TL;DR version:

They're intimidating and exhausting, very rewarding for a long time, but ultimately flawed in some very interesting and sometimes amusing ways. As a matter of personal taste, I do prefer the Europa Universalis games over the rest.  And my interest with their games has gone down, rather than up, as years and numerals have gone by.

The rant:

Maybe I prefer the EU line of games because their roots being at a quite good strategic board game (by Philippe Thibault, 50% of AGEOD, which kind of explains some of the most shambolic and fiddly aspects of the EU experience), or the setting allowing for a much broader gamut of interactions between the players (here I'm counting the AI-controlled nations, trying EU 4 multiplayer is in my to-do list). My biggest problem with EU IV is how warfare is modeled: it hasn't got much improved after 10 years of EU "iterations", and never has even resembled what I have read about the period.

If you start a 1453 game, you'll get wars like the Seven Year Wars/Revolutionary France Wars/Napoleonic Wars right off  the bat by early 1520's, involving hundreds of thousands of men, massive naval battles that would put Trafalgar to shame and nations (or kingdoms) being toppled like it was the case 300 years later with Napoleon. Most of these mega-wars revolve around France, in one form or another, which I find amusing and not too ahistorical :)

The economic, exploration and diplomatic aspects of the game are very strong, the military just goes out of hand really quickly, especially in wars fought between major European powers.

The HOI games have always been a disappointment for me. They're the best closest thing to a playable computer-based game of WIF - and I do really like the 1936-39 pre-war period of the game, since things aren't so clearly set as the war starts. I remember fondly the diplomacy system in HOI2, and the pre-World War 2 kind of Cold War setting - influencing neutral nations in Europe, propping up China to stand against the Japanese invasion, etc - is a topic which has been hardly covered by games (with the notable exception of WIF's Days of Decision). Building up your military and technology is also quite fun.

But the war itself is all but unmanageable as fronts start to open all over the place. As the Germans I always found close to impossible to put up a good fight against the Allies strategic bombing (which starts right off the bat in 1940 or so, and causes a lot of damage). As the Allies I always found very hard to coordinate allied operations in a manner that suited my liking. And to be honest, managing a multi-theater war spanning half across the globe and involving land, sea and air operations isn't easy (although HOI 3 interface came a long way to help with that). But in any case, the Friendly AI isn't ever close to match a 50% of what one would need.

Not to mention the enemy AI which still makes very questionable strategic choices such as sending a green as grass American army to invade northern Germany in 1942. Destroying 20 American divisions on the beaches is a stretch for my imagination, especially if as Germany you can't really retaliate and invade the US with rocket ships or stuff  :)

CKII is pretty good though. Playing as an underdog Duchy or lackluster Kingdom and carving an empire for your bloodline is very rewarding. I also find its military model to be much more sensible than the one in EU IV: attrition in the 15th, 16th or 17th century wasn't any better managed than it was in the time of the Crusades and keeping together big armies for extended periods of time seriously wrecks things in many interesting and fun ways.

What becomes ultimately a micro-management nightmare to me is administering properly your relations and your court. Seriously, I spend something like  70% of the time dealing with the 'life admin' issues of my retinue than anything else. But it also kind of lacks a bit of structure: once you've become big and powerful, it's very hard to be toppled by the very limited skills of the AI (another thing is the Event Engine which is sometime a quite ham-fisted form of Divine Providence).

I am EXACTLY the same.

For HoI3, my main issue when I start it up is I have vanilla...and I wonder if it's fixed...and if I should get the expansions...then I quit  :)

As Nefaro said, best way to ignite enthiusiasm for a juicy game are Let's Play videos. You become invested in understanding the game, and following the progress of a playthrough, with hopefully, the decisions and thought processes of the player being spelled out for you. You can probably just watch some of a series and suddenly get the urge to try some things out, now you have a better understanding of where to begin.

Also, I found setting myself up to write an AAR about such a game, would encourage me to delve in and get down to the understanding of it, simply because I'd need to know a few basics to talk about it in the AAR as I played.

Lastly, and I think this is where Grand Strategy often falls short, is they market themselves on complexity, and on providing whole sweeping campaigns of many hours and hours of play - but a lot of gamers haven't got the time to invest in these sort of ways to play. Rather than offering you the world on a stick approach and saying 'go and find your pleasure in the complexity of it all', they should hand hold you a bit, and break the experience down to begin with, into manageable short scenarios, where various systems are introduced and then encouraged, building upon the scenario before it. Lastly ending in the almighty campaigns, for those who have the time, curiosity (and patience) to go there. Smaller chunks of well designed gameplay, to encourage players to dabble and not have to study to get anywhere. It would open the door into these games, and I'd wager much more players would be willing to make the step than currently do.

If the scale of the gameplay is a disuading factor to even the grognards of society, then (I would argue) you need to bite smaller chunks off and feed the game to the players at much more appetising and manageable sessions of gaming.

Paradox do large complex sandboxes and pitch them out of the box at massive often unfathomable campaign level, 'go play my pretties!'. Their systems can often be beautiful to watch play out and interact with, but mostly the price into the Wonderful World of Paradox is too high to even find the enthusiasm for it. It promises much on the Steam store page (or in a box on the shelf) but it requires a lot of serious effort to get any pleasure from it. Make the curve less steep, design in some clever scaled scenarios, and spell out the beauty to many more people.

Quote from: spelk on February 17, 2014, 03:27:44 AM
Paradox do large complex sandboxes and pitch them out of the box at massive often unfathomable campaign level, 'go play my pretties!'. Their systems can often be beautiful to watch play out and interact with, but mostly the price into the Wonderful World of Paradox is too high to even find the enthusiasm for it. It promises much on the Steam store page (or in a box on the shelf) but it requires a lot of serious effort to get any pleasure from it. Make the curve less steep, design in some clever scaled scenarios, and spell out the beauty to many more people.

There's a lot to this, certainly, but I think Paradox is coming around to this way of thinking, Spelk, with their latest generation of games.  They've clearly made strides in improving the UI, making relevant information more up front. In CKII and EUIV, most everything is 'clickable,' hyperlinking to screens that give more detailed information, and most everything has informative tooltips. The game-event icons that pop up in the upper right-hand corner -- the stained-glass roundels in CKII and the red/green/gold tabs in EUIV -- do a pretty good job of giving the player a 'heads up' when something important needs to be done or an important opportunity presents itself. Pdox is clearly invested in figuring out ways to present information to the player in ways that are helpful and not irritating, a la the message spam that plauged earlier games in the HOI and EU series.

They're also signaling very clearly that HoI4 will be more streamlined and easier to understand than HoI3, with a less steep learning curve.  I personally love HoI3, but I certainly understand (and share to some extent) the frustrations of players who say "it's too hard to tell what's going on, or what I should do."  I feel pretty confident they will strike a good balance in HoI4 between accessibility and depth.  They are keenly aware, I think, that HoI3 remains their most 'controversial' title, in terms of how it continues to divide their player base. I'm sure they're determined not to repeat the mistakes with HoI4.

Their UI is undergoing an evolution all the time, and we're getting some good informative stuff now - but - I'd still say they need to pull off chunks of the bread and feed it to us in smaller more mouth-size bites. Not just segment history and say have at it, but set up specific scenarios, with known historical quantities and then play out a small section of the history from a guided/followable narrative. I know its like having missions in Elite, but done well it could cleverly explain the thought processes necessary to get to the very large sandbox campaigns, and you'll get an informative thrill ride on the way.

Fired up CKII last night.  Then it crashed on me. 

oddly enough i have the same blockage with CMANO, i see its a great game, i see its complex, immersive and a blank canvas waiting for whatever my imagination can unleash on it

i enjoyed the tutorials, have yet to venture into scenarios and scenario design, its just every time i open it i close it again

to some extent, and it is not a discredit to Baloogan, but i stand at the bottom of the massive mountain of content hes created and think....... 'whaaaaaaaaat?' its just too much to comprehend

undercovergeek.....just curious, what is game is CMANO?

Command: Modern Air Naval Operations

Any of you HOI aficionados have any suggestions for reducing IC waste? I replaced my armament minister with Hjamer Schact and that seemed to help tremendously for about 6 months. Now it is on the rise again and I'm not really sure what is causing it. I recently enacted a new industrial law (mixed industry) that seems to have reduced the IC waste slightly...perhaps I'll see a greater effect over time? My national morale is extremely high, its up to at least 93%, while the dissent levels (although rising slightly) are extremely low, less than .80% right now.

I've started tweaking my OOB. Pretty much just making sure that the divisions are spread out evenly amongst Armie Korp HQs. Typically, I have 3 to 4 divisions attached to each Armie Korp. I'm still not certain how many divisions may be attached to each Armie Korp without taking a penalty. I'm also not sure how Theater HQs come into the picture.  For instance, how many Armie Korps can be attached to Theater HQs without a penalty? 

I think I've been at this point once or twice over the years. I feel like I'm pretty competent in the pre-war years, but once the war starts, everything goes to hell pretty damn quickly.

Go with the rule of fives for OOB.  One army group gets 5 armies, one army gets 5 divisions, and so on down the line.

Rule of 5 is a good premise.... but you can't get 5 brigades per division til after some research

German infantry division fielded 3 regiments plus an arty regiment. This was pretty much the pattern throughout the war, although there were a few exceptions.

Brigades tended to be independent formation, such as assault guns.

Just being pedantic.......sorry ;)

Everything that follows is based on HOI2.  Not sure how well they work in 3.

Check your research.  There may be some things you can research that will increase IC.  Build long runs of things you need: Infantry, Planes, Infrastructure, etc.  the longer the run, the less it costs to build them.  I am sure there are more, but those are the ones that come off the top of my head.

Spend some time here as well:  http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Main_Page

The lads that did this one also did 2 and I learned a lot from it.

Quote from: bob48 on February 17, 2014, 06:35:33 PM
German infantry division fielded 3 regiments plus an arty regiment. This was pretty much the pattern throughout the war, although there were a few exceptions.

Brigades tended to be independent formation, such as assault guns.

Just being pedantic.......sorry ;)

Yeah, sorry....... 5 whatever's!

Rhubarb!

Two observations plus one question.

First: I think many of us started our computer gaming in the 80's or 90's.  Not only were there fewer games back then but you had to invest the time of going to the store, searching through the available titles, and deciding on one.  Unboxing it was an event.  Reading the manual and working through the tutorial were very necessary since there was no internet to fall back on.  Multi-player meant hot seat or playing a network game in the same room as your opponent.  It created a camaraderie between friends.  Now there are so many titles available, most instantly, that if it doesn't grab me right away then I can just move on to the next one.  Hard drives can hold hundreds of games so I always have other games at my fingertips. 

Second: So after reading through this thread I though "maybe I'll see if I can get a deal on CK:II or HOI:III".  I quickly discovered that I ALREADY OWN HOI:III.  I don't ever remember buying or trying it.  That's how Gaming ADD I've become.  That being said, and not to derail the thread but what are the must have mods for HOI:III?  I want to give HOI:III a try this weekend but, like many of us, I need it to grab me right away.  Great mods certainly help.

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
That being said, and not to derail the thread but what are the must have mods for HOI:III?  I want to give HOI:III a try this weekend but, like many of us, I need it to grab me right away.  Great mods certainly help.

I can't recommend any mods, but I do recommend all of the DLC. I think there is Semper Fi, For the Motherland and Finest Hour. All of them add significantly to the experience.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 18, 2014, 11:14:08 AM

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
That being said, and not to derail the thread but what are the must have mods for HOI:III?  I want to give HOI:III a try this weekend but, like many of us, I need it to grab me right away.  Great mods certainly help.

I can't recommend any mods, but I do recommend all of the DLC. I think there is Semper Fi, For the Motherland and Finest Hour. All of them add significantly to the experience.

Wow!  I had no idea there was so much DLC for the game.  Does it all really enhance the game/immersion?  It looks like you could spend twice the cost of the game just on DLC.

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 12:03:39 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 18, 2014, 11:14:08 AM

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
That being said, and not to derail the thread but what are the must have mods for HOI:III?  I want to give HOI:III a try this weekend but, like many of us, I need it to grab me right away.  Great mods certainly help.

I can't recommend any mods, but I do recommend all of the DLC. I think there is Semper Fi, For the Motherland and Finest Hour. All of them add significantly to the experience.

Wow!  I had no idea there was so much DLC for the game.  Does it all really enhance the game/immersion?  It looks like you could spend twice the cost of the game just on DLC.

I think purists will tell you that each DLC really improves the overall experience and makes it a much better, more streamlined game. i never played a lot without the DLCs so I cannot compare and contrast.

Getting the fully up-gunned HOI3 with all expansions at this point is a must, IMO.  You can get the "Hearts of Iron 3 Collection" and "Their Finest Hour" and voila, you have state-of-the-art HoI3.

BlackICE is (in my view) the best HOI3 mod.  However, it changes the game pretty significantly, so I'm not sure I'd dive right into that without first familiarizing myself with the base game. 

Perhaps the better move, if you want a mod, is the "Total Realism Project" mod, which as far as I understand, leaves the vanilla game more or less intact while giving you much improved AI.

The HoI III Collection on Gamersgate does not include Their Finest Hour.

Paradox are one of the main culprits here when dealing with "collections"...You would think it would be quite simple...buy the "collection" and you get the lot...but no - you are almost as bad off as I am at the moment with HoI III and Semper Fi...I still have to look into what other DLC I could get...as you do with "The Collection". They did the same with EUIII...several version came out and you were never entirely sure which version wa the complete version.

Aaaargh!

.

Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 18, 2014, 12:18:18 PM
The HoI III Collection on Gamersgate does not include Their Finest Hour.

Paradox are one of the main culprits here when dealing with "collections"...You would think it would be quite simple...buy the "collection" and you get the lot...but no - you are almost as bad off as I am at the moment with HoI III and Semper Fi...I still have to look into what other DLC I could get...as you do with "The Collection". They did the same with EUIII...several version came out and you were never entirely sure which version wa the complete version.

Aaaargh!

That's not really fair. Sometimes collections are released including the DLC released at the time. Sometimes a collection is released around the time a new DLC comes out to help others jump in and get everything released prior to the new content. I don't really see a problem with this.   

Quote from: eyebiter on February 18, 2014, 12:18:31 PM
If you build a run of 10x3 factories starting in 1936, should have enough IC for war in 1939.

For hoi3 will usually use the 10% IC or +25% resources minister, depending how few rares available. 
Also use Logistic leaders to reduce supply consumption. 

If you have extra IC early build infrastructure and ports to keep supplies moving.  Manually control a stack of transports running air supply missions.  Also try to intercept allied bombing raids to minimize damage.

Plan for the time when your armies begin to run out of gas and supplies in Russia.  Will often transfer Panzer or Mech Infantry divisions to Western Europe before D-Day, and keep Infantry and Calvary in the Eastern Front once the Soviets retreat east of Moscow.

Is building that much infrastructure right out of the gate sensible? Won't resources be better spent on military units who can then take and hold foreign territory that itself has IC producing infrastructure?

I can honestly say that, in many, many times playing Germany in HoI3, starting in '36, I've never bothered to build infrastructure or factories.

It's actually one of my complaints, actually, that logistics doesn't really matter all that much in any of the HoI games. (Nor does army / navy intel.).  I've never been stalled driving into USSR due to lack of supply, weather, or insufficient infrastructure. (Slowed maybe, but never stalled.) BlackICE makes some of these aspects much more of a challenge -- in fact, beating USSR as Germany in BlackICE is hard.  But in vanilla, Germany always seems to have plenty of IC, manpower, supply, and sufficient infrastructure to make the whole war-machine run smoothly -- a little too smoothly.

Well - it's how I feel JH. Everytime I go to look at what DLC is available, I'm like "Can't they put this in a collection", and when I find the collection, you're just about to by and realise that isn't "the" collection...it's just "a" collection.

.

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 18, 2014, 01:28:57 PM
I can honestly say that, in many, many times playing Germany in HoI3, starting in '36, I've never bothered to build infrastructure or factories.

It's actually one of my complaints, actually, that logistics doesn't really matter all that much in any of the HoI games. (Nor does army / navy intel.).  I've never been stalled driving into USSR due to lack of supply, weather, or insufficient infrastructure. (Slowed maybe, but never stalled.) BlackICE makes some of these aspects much more of a challenge -- in fact, beating USSR as Germany in BlackICE is hard.  But in vanilla, Germany always seems to have plenty of IC, manpower, supply, and sufficient infrastructure to make the whole war-machine run smoothly -- a little too smoothly.

Conquered Europe as Italy and Germany..... never built a factory

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 12:03:39 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 18, 2014, 11:14:08 AM

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
That being said, and not to derail the thread but what are the must have mods for HOI:III?  I want to give HOI:III a try this weekend but, like many of us, I need it to grab me right away.  Great mods certainly help.

I can't recommend any mods, but I do recommend all of the DLC. I think there is Semper Fi, For the Motherland and Finest Hour. All of them add significantly to the experience.

Wow!  I had no idea there was so much DLC for the game.  Does it all really enhance the game/immersion?  It looks like you could spend twice the cost of the game just on DLC.

Since Hearts of Iron IV is in the works, if I were you I would only invest in the three HoI3 expansions: Semper Fi (http://www.mobygames.com/game/hearts-of-iron-iii-semper-fi-), For the Motherland (http://www.mobygames.com/game/hearts-of-iron-iii-for-the-motherland), and Their Finest Hour (http://www.mobygames.com/game/hearts-of-iron-iii-their-finest-hour). Think of them as big patches. The DLC isn't really necessary in my opinion, but the expansions fix most of what was wrong with the game when it was released, or so they tell me.

Quote from: Greybriar on February 18, 2014, 05:43:59 PM

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 12:03:39 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 18, 2014, 11:14:08 AM

Quote from: KyzBP on February 18, 2014, 11:02:54 AM
That being said, and not to derail the thread but what are the must have mods for HOI:III?  I want to give HOI:III a try this weekend but, like many of us, I need it to grab me right away.  Great mods certainly help.

I can't recommend any mods, but I do recommend all of the DLC. I think there is Semper Fi, For the Motherland and Finest Hour. All of them add significantly to the experience.

After looking through my Steam account I found that I own HOI 3 w/ For The Motherland and Semper Fi.  I honestly don't remember buying them.  I'm thinking they were part of a bundle some time ago.

Wow!  I had no idea there was so much DLC for the game.  Does it all really enhance the game/immersion?  It looks like you could spend twice the cost of the game just on DLC.

Since Hearts of Iron IV is in the works, if I were you I would only invest in the three HoI3 expansions: Semper Fi (http://www.mobygames.com/game/hearts-of-iron-iii-semper-fi-), For the Motherland (http://www.mobygames.com/game/hearts-of-iron-iii-for-the-motherland), and Their Finest Hour (http://www.mobygames.com/game/hearts-of-iron-iii-their-finest-hour). Think of them as big patches. The DLC isn't really necessary in my opinion, but the expansions fix most of what was wrong with the game when it was released, or so they tell me.

JH,

Here's a link that helps with understanding the HOI3 OOB  functionality. While it references "For the Motherland," the principles apply to all of HOI3.  It really helped me get into the game.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d95CHl9WQaA

Sorry Jarhead, I'm a little late to the game. Paradox games are like AGEOD games; they are comes but once you learn one, the rest are opened up to you. Like you I tried to learn with a a number of paradox games;mainly Eu3. I just could t get it and got bored quickly.

Although I finally broke through on CK2, I would recommend EU4 as a starting point.
1. Pick England around 1508. Your not at war and can sell Calaise to avoid war with France
2. It's extremely difficult for anyone to attack you because of the channel so you can stay out of continental wars
3. Between Scotland and Ireland,  you have lots of future lands to conqueror and none of them are powerful enough to cause you problems.

So. Start and just click on the little flags that tell you about missing advisors, causus belli and such and read them...but don't worry about them.
Find a buyer for Calais...keeping it will only  get you in a war with France.
Find your trade nodes and send a trader to the one in your land to "collect"
Send anymore you have to other ones to "steer trade".

After that, take a break, start clicking on things and looking at your territories. I will tell you this about paradox games. When you start out you think "this is it? I can build a fort or temple" but trust me, as your tech advances, you will get more. Force yourself to play for 2 hours. Keep your navy strong and concentrated and keep an army of about 8k inf, 3cav and 2 arty with a general to take care of any rebellions. That's all you need.

Just experiment, hire an advisor and see how it effects the warning of monarch points. Send diplomats to any scotish land to improve relations..once
High enough you can make them a vassal. Once they have been vassals for long enough, you can annex them.

It's a long process and just like distant worlds or AGEOD, you have to force yourself to sit down and learn it

Quote from: Electric_Strawberry on February 18, 2014, 07:43:41 PM
JH,

Here's a link that helps with understanding the HOI3 OOB  functionality. While it references "For the Motherland," the principles apply to all of HOI3.  It really helped me get into the game.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d95CHl9WQaA

Didn't watch part II yet, but from part I! this looks like exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

I've noticed that the AI seems to be trying to fill out the OOB in accordance with the "law of fives." At least, theater commands seem to be requesting build orders for tanks and infantry divisions and then placing them in under strength korps to fill them out.

A few hints I've gleaned over the years:

AI control at the highest Theatre level is odd so only set AI to Army-Level HQ's or lower. Assign air assets directly to these groups, not to theatre level AI.
The Army HQ's are good for large fronts (Russia) and the corps AI for smaller regions (North Africa, Norway).

As a test, fire up the 1939 Scenario as Germany and assign each Army HQ to their historical objectives. Select Historical Battle Plan for Case White (Poland 1939).

Set Army HQ AI's to 'Blitzkrieg', make sure you've assigned air groups to each army HQ and let the game run. Once each Army has seized an objective, select another rear-area objective.

I've seen the Army-level AI's complete this to historical satisfaction.

 HOI III : Tried to get into it. But the deeper you delve into it, the more you see how flawed the AI is, and that it is not going to provide anything resembling a realistic WW II experience.

Crusader Kings II: Tried to get into it playing a small kingdom in Ireland. Just really did not hook me. Im going to give it another try eventually.

EU IV : Now this is my cup of tea. Above average AI gives you a pretty good challenge. Plus if you are familiar with the other EUs, its not too hard to figure out. Usually play as England and have a blast dominating the British Isles, colonizing, and taking advantage of anything that pops up in Europe. In my opinion this is the best strategy game out now. It has a good mix of playability and complexity.

Quote from: IanC on February 19, 2014, 06:22:55 AM
AI control at the highest Theatre level is odd so only set AI to Army-Level HQ's or lower. Assign air assets directly to these groups, not to theatre level AI.

For me, army AI-control option is one of the best things about HoI3.  Yes, it's fiddly, tempermental, prone to stupidity -- in other words, far from perfect -- but I love it.  I find I get the best results using AI control at Corps level.  It's also important not to overwhelm the AI. Give the Corps a *single* objective or at most 2, ideally pretty deep behind enemy lines.  Equally important, set an "axis of advance" for the AI-led Corps by Ctrl-right-clicking in the area of the objective.  This helps keeps the Corps driving toward the objective, making it less prone to idiotic diversions.

It's takes some practice to use correctly and to learn what you can and cannot expect the AI to do.  Still, I can't go back to individually micromanaging every single division.  I'm very, very psyched that HoI4 is going to integrate battle plans with AI control. It will finally be possible to plan and direct real operations -- not just unit shuffling.  Can't wait.

Quote from: bboyer66 on February 19, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
HOI III : Tried to get into it. But the deeper you delve into it, the more you see how flawed the AI is, and that it is not going to provide anything resembling a realistic WW II experience.

Crusader Kings II: Tried to get into it playing a small kingdom in Ireland. Just really did not hook me. Im going to give it another try eventually.

EU IV : Now this is my cup of tea. Above average AI gives you a pretty good challenge. Plus if you are familiar with the other EUs, its not too hard to figure out. Usually play as England and have a blast dominating the British Isles, colonizing, and taking advantage of anything that pops up in Europe. In my opinion this is the best strategy game out now. It has a good mix of playability and complexity.

EU4 is definitely the easiest to learn, of the lot. 

I would suggest starting with that if someone wasn't familiar with their stuff.

After digging through Steam a bit I figured out that I bought HOI:3 Complete back in 2011 and never played it.  I went ahead and bought the rest of the DLC so I'm about to start a game as Norway (no particular reason) in 1936.  Any last minute advice?

Why Norway  ??

I mean, great country IRL and all that... but in HOI3?   Seems like the makings of a pretty uneventful game, just given a country like Norway's lack of resources for waging war --

Maybe to just get a grip of the mechanics...not be overwhelmed like. I would likely start in a quiet country given the option. Just to see IC, industry, research etc...though you admittedly wouldn't be doing much.

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 19, 2014, 02:31:16 PM
Why Norway  ??

I mean, great country IRL and all that... but in HOI3?   Seems like the makings of a pretty uneventful game, just given a country like Norway's lack of resources for waging war --

I wanted a country that would be a bit slow at first so I could learn the game.  I'm figuring out trade and research right now.  Production will be next and then to begin building my Home Defense Force.  A gun behind every tree.  I have Germany to my South and England to my west.  Surely I'll be a juicy target for one of them once the war starts.

I'm starting to "feel" like my ground forces are really coming together organizationally. They look good on paper, at least, but it remains to be seen how they will ultimately perform in battle. I have really no idea if they will be effective. For instance, I'm not sure if I have a good mix of infantry and armor, or whether the brigade composition maximizes unit effectiveness.  I guess this is something I may have to figure out through trial and error. It's December 1937, so I still have some time to prepare.

So, what about aviation and naval forces? How should the Air Force be organized? I'm focusing production on interceptors and close air support/tactical bombers in preparation for blitz style warfare. Like I was with the ground component before, I really have no clue how to organize these squadrons to avoid penalties and maximize effectiveness. Advice?

What about naval forces? I think it makes most sense to focus on the submarine fleet for now.m don't see Germany ever being able to be build a fleet capable of challenging the British. At least, not until I've accomplished my initial goal of pacifying Western Europe. Thoughts?

Finally, is it possible to win the game while deviating from history? In other words, as the German player with the benefit of hindsight, it would seem to be prudent to not invade the Soviet Union until after the western powers have been defeated. At this point I've played longer than ever before. I seem to now be very competent with managing the economy, production, domestic politics and R&D. I understand unit organization, at least, from the perspective of building and shifting units within the framework f the UI. All that is really left is to master the art of war.

These are pretty neat guides:


http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Strategy

http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Reference

http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Country_guides


If you want a better looking map with traditional counters try my own mod (some work included by Modestus, also contains Nazi flag):
http://www.gamefront.com/files/24066322/clear_map_mod.zip

Unzip both files and copy to:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Paradox Interactive\Hearts of Iron III\tfh\mod

Will build a new map cache (a few minutes, once only at start).


(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1207x755q90/248/solidger2.jpg)

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 20, 2014, 05:07:11 AM
I'm starting to "feel" like my ground forces are really coming together organizationally. They look good on paper, at least, but it remains to be seen how they will ultimately perform in battle. I have really no idea if they will be effective. For instance, I'm not sure if I have a good mix of infantry and armor, or whether the brigade composition maximizes unit effectiveness.  I guess this is something I may have to figure out through trial and error. It's December 1937, so I still have some time to prepare.

So, what about aviation and naval forces? How should the Air Force be organized? I'm focusing production on interceptors and close air support/tactical bombers in preparation for blitz style warfare. Like I was with the ground component before, I really have no clue how to organize these squadrons to avoid penalties and maximize effectiveness. Advice?

What about naval forces? I think it makes most sense to focus on the submarine fleet for now.m don't see Germany ever being able to be build a fleet capable of challenging the British. At least, not until I've accomplished my initial goal of pacifying Western Europe. Thoughts?

Finally, is it possible to win the game while deviating from history? In other words, as the German player with the benefit of hindsight, it would seem to be prudent to not invade the Soviet Union until after the western powers have been defeated. At this point I've played longer than ever before. I seem to now be very competent with managing the economy, production, domestic politics and R&D. I understand unit organization, at least, from the perspective of building and shifting units within the framework f the UI. All that is really left is to master the art of war.

all ive ever read, and indeed practiced as the germans re a naval force is to can everything and just build a big uboat fleet - with that alone i destroyed the royal navy

From the first second of playing I influenced the USA to be nazi sympathisers and i even think the govenrment changed to reflect that, but in the end i think the AI is scripted for the big Russian showdown - might not be '41 but theyll come

I have actually purchased HOI 3 with al of jt expansions but never really played it. I'm intrigued but turned off by WW2. I am really looking forward to the Cold war version coming out in a few months "East versus West" I believe it's called

On the subject of Paradox  --  EUIV on sale on GG for $10 today -- a steal.  Plus discounts on Victoria 2 and expansions.  Vicky 2 still holds up amazingly well today, esp. with the POP Demand mod.  Great game.

Anyone have Pride of Nations? I bought that last year sometime, tried playing through it for an hour or so, then uninstalled it. It's the only Paradox title I have in my Steam account right now, but I think about trying again from time to time.

That seems to be a running theme with most of us - play through, get stymied for whatever reason, uninstall, pine for it, reinstall, repeat...lol.

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 20, 2014, 11:45:35 AM
On the subject of Paradox  --  EUIV on sale on GG for $10 today -- a steal.  Plus discounts on Victoria 2 and expansions.  Vicky 2 still holds up amazingly well today, esp. with the POP Demand mod.  Great game.

Thanks and bought.

EUIII was one of the few Paradox games I ever really devoted any time to. I've been waiting on an EUIV sale (I didn't pick it up on Steam)

Quote from: Banzai_Cat on February 20, 2014, 12:09:55 PM
Anyone have Pride of Nations? I bought that last year sometime, tried playing through it for an hour or so, then uninstalled it. It's the only Paradox title I have in my Steam account right now, but I think about trying again from time to time.

That seems to be a running theme with most of us - play through, get stymied for whatever reason, uninstall, pine for it, reinstall, repeat...lol.

I shelved it until there was a decent let's play on you tube, which I consider to be today's manuals and tutorials.... there is one now I just need the time

In all fairness... Pride of Nations is really AGEOD isn't it?

Quote from: Tuna on February 20, 2014, 03:34:05 PM
In all fairness... Pride of Nations is really AGEOD isn't it?

Yes. Paradox was just the publisher.

Ah, my mistake.

Quote from: Barthheart on February 20, 2014, 03:37:42 PM

Quote from: Tuna on February 20, 2014, 03:34:05 PM
In all fairness... Pride of Nations is really AGEOD isn't it?

Yes. Paradox was just the publisher.

Actually at the time Pride of Nations was released AGEOD was a part of Paradox Interactive; it was Paradox France. That's why the game was titled Pride of Nations instead of Vainglory of Nations. AGEOD split from Paradox (http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?24740-Paradox-Interactive-amp-Paradox-France) in June 2012.

Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 20, 2014, 12:19:12 PM

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 20, 2014, 11:45:35 AM
On the subject of Paradox  --  EUIV on sale on GG for $10 today -- a steal.  Plus discounts on Victoria 2 and expansions.  Vicky 2 still holds up amazingly well today, esp. with the POP Demand mod.  Great game.

Thanks and bought.

EUIII was one of the few Paradox games I ever really devoted any time to. I've been waiting on an EUIV sale (I didn't pick it up on Steam)

I think EU4 is much better than EU3.  There was a fair bit of annoying and improper junk going on under the hood of EU3 that was changed for 4.  I enjoyed the latter much more.

A quick HOI:3 question:

How do I trade/sell Heavy Water as Norway?

Sorry if this derails the thread.

Are you playing with a mod -- TRP?  Vanilla HOI3, there's no way to trade 'heavy water' per se, just the generic "rare materials."

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 21, 2014, 11:23:25 AM
Are you playing with a mod -- TRP?  Vanilla HOI3, there's no way to trade 'heavy water' per se, just the generic "rare materials."

I'm playing TFH.  I was hoping to be able to get some cash for it.  I'll probably never be able to use it.  Oh well.

Thanks.

Well, it's October 1940 and the war has finally begun. Hostilities kicked off late because I didn't annex the Sudetenland on historical schedule, which is what really starts the downward spiral towards war.

I'm pleased to report that my eastern armies kicked the snot out of the Poles. I mean really, we took Warsaw and forced a surrender in a matter of months. I was really pleased to see my divisions that I worked so hard to build win so decisively.

I'm reorganizing the eastern front now and redeploying several army groups to the western front. So far, the western powers were happy to maintain a quiet watch from their defensive positions on the border. They have not tried to engage me on land. I'm hopeful my redeployment will be complete before the western theater lights up.

The allies, however, are attacking my shipping and so far I seem pretty impotent in preventing the attacks. Every 5 seconds or so I get a popup telling me that a transport or two has been sunk. I have submarines out there on patrol, but they seem to be unable to stop this problem.

Otherwise, so far, the war seems to be going very well for Germany.

whos next? denmark or holland/belgium?

Quote from: undercovergeek on February 22, 2014, 06:58:49 AM
whos next? denmark or holland/belgium?

Denmark isn't really threatening me right now, so I was probably going to swing through the Low Countries. They have their armies lined up on my western border and I feel like they are going to attack anytime now.  I'll have to reassess once my eastern forces are redeployed.

I need to slow things down. The war with Poland, although successful, started and then finished very quickly. The time between the declaration of war and combat operations happened too fast, and felt a little out of control. I want to avoid that from happening again if at all possible.

Holland has good rare material count and Norway has the heavy water if you're going nuclear

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 22, 2014, 07:42:18 AM


I need to slow things down. The war with Poland, although successful, started and then finished very quickly. The time between the declaration of war and combat operations happened too fast, and felt a little out of control. I want to avoid that from happening again if at all possible.

Did you let the AI micro-manage your armies during the war? 

I'm wondering how well the AI handles them these days, as that was often one of the big complaints I read about HOI3.  Leaving units out of HQ range/supply/etc and other such mismanagement was pretty common early in it's post-release period but hopefully it's passable now.

I had wanted to start a game as Japan awhile back but some of the reports weren't too hot about it at the time.  Then there is the usual naval warfare and amphibious problems that plague most large grand strategy games, so I lost faith and never really played far.  Despite my general aversion to most things WW2, it's still tempting to fire this back up sometime soon if our 'AI Helper' can do a fair job of running a military campaign.  :D  I suppose it would be best to ask someone who has progressed into a full-on war with the Soviets, or other such large and daunting endeavors.

I managed the war in Poland myself.

In my game as Norway I am in May of 1945 and the world looks like this:

-Most of Europe is in Russian control.  They took Berlin in Oct. of 44.
-Finland took a bunch of land in Norway's Arctic Circle area.  Russia then relieved them of that land.  Russia owns Finland.
-The Japanese hold Pearl Harbor.  They hold all of Oahu but will probably be kicked out soon.
-The Japanese hold Southeastern Australia and seem to be moving inland.

The Fins were the only ones to attack me so far.  My lack of knowledge concerning attacking prevented me from countering.  Most of my forces are in a defensive posture awaiting the arrival of Soviet forces.

The game has been fun.  I may try a larger power next time.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 22, 2014, 09:34:02 AM
I managed the war in Poland myself.

Down to the individual counter?? Or did you give orders to the HQs and let the AI micro-manage the stuff?

I recall seeing a horde of unit counters in one game and thought, "Holy Testicle Tuesdays Batman!  This is worse than Supreme Ruler!"

Yes. Down to every division. If I was fighting more than one front, it would have been unmanageable.

My reorganized western divisions swept through the Netherlands. All Dutch provinces are occupied, but those stubborn SOBs refuse to capitulate. Their divisions fight on. I've also swung into parts of Belgium, but like the Dutch, they are putting up one hell of a fight. I sustained heavy losses taking Antwerp and Brussels just does not want to fall. My last attack cost me over 9000 men. It's still 1940, and I'm confident the Dutch and Flemish will surrender...the question is, can I force that before the French go on the offensive?

Although the French are assisting Belgium and holland with considerable divisions, they seem to have the majority of their forces guarding our mutual border. I want it stay that way, even though I'm forced to commit considerable forces on the border, as well. If the French attacked into Germany, I suspect it would tip the balance in the allies' favor. My units fighting in Holland and Belgium are tired.

The Russians seem to be quiet too. I need that war to stay cold for now.

just in case anyone is interested --

You can get the *entire* HoI3 collection, including all 3 add-ons (Their Finest Hour inclusive) and DLC, for $11.24 on Steam, until March 3.

I'm tempted to buy this just for the convenience of having it all on Steam...

Dammit. I just bought 2 DLC's for more than that not a week ago! lmao!

I recently bought a bunch of CKII add-ons and DLC through Steam... only to discover a day or 2 later that all that stuff was on sale on GamersGate for like 50-75% off.  noooooo!!!!!!!

You win some, you lose some...

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 24, 2014, 03:52:32 PM
just in case anyone is interested --

You can get the *entire* HoI3 collection, including all 3 add-ons (Their Finest Hour inclusive) and DLC, for $11.24 on Steam, until March 3.

I'm tempted to buy this just for the convenience of having it all on Steam...

Yes, I'm thinking about it too. I get confused as to what DLC I've bought for HOI 3 on Gamersgate and what I'm missing which appears to be the last two DLC (Italian and Minor vehicles). Be nice to have everything sorted on Steam.

If you're playing with the Their Finest Hour DLC, don't bother with the other DLC, it doesn't work or is already bundled in.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 24, 2014, 06:19:15 PM
If you're playing with the Their Finest Hour DLC, don't bother with the other DLC, it doesn't work or is already bundled in.

The expansions are cumulative and have to be installed in chronological order. Since Their Finest Hour is the most recent, both Semper Fi and For the Motherland have to be installed before Their Finest Hour can be added.

Quote from: Greybriar on February 24, 2014, 06:50:37 PM

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 24, 2014, 06:19:15 PM
If you're playing with the Their Finest Hour DLC, don't bother with the other DLC, it doesn't work or is already bundled in.

The expansions are cumulative and have to be installed in chronological order. Since Their Finest Hour is the most recent, both Semper Fi and For the Motherland have to be installed before Their Finest Hour can be added.

True. I misread and thought he'd purchased the HOI 3 Collection which has Semper Fi and For The Motherland already included.

Quote from: Greybriar on February 24, 2014, 06:50:37 PM

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 24, 2014, 06:19:15 PM
If you're playing with the Their Finest Hour DLC, don't bother with the other DLC, it doesn't work or is already bundled in.

The expansions are cumulative and have to be installed in chronological order. Since Their Finest Hour is the most recent, both Semper Fi and For the Motherland have to be installed before Their Finest Hour can be added.

i dont think this is correct - i only have HOI III TFH, never bought or played SF or FTM

Quote from: undercovergeek on February 25, 2014, 04:38:34 AM

Quote from: Greybriar on February 24, 2014, 06:50:37 PM

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 24, 2014, 06:19:15 PM
If you're playing with the Their Finest Hour DLC, don't bother with the other DLC, it doesn't work or is already bundled in.

The expansions are cumulative and have to be installed in chronological order. Since Their Finest Hour is the most recent, both Semper Fi and For the Motherland have to be installed before Their Finest Hour can be added.

i dont think this is correct - i only have HOI III TFH, never bought or played SF or FTM

If you purchased the HOI3 "Collection" then the previous expansions were already in it.  All you needed was the last one to round it out.

Riddle solved!  :P

just checked on my steam acount - just vanilla HOI III and TFH

I think Nefaro got it right -- from the Pdox site (all caps are from cut&paste, I'm not shouting  :)) -- for Their Finest Hour --

"NEEDS HEARTS OF IRON III COLLECTION OR HEARTS OF IRON III, SEMPER FI AND FOR THE MOTHERLAND TO PLAY"

Yes, I bought Hearts of Iron 3 Collection quite a while ago on Gamersgate and have been slowly adding the DLC's released after I bought it.

Here's an interesting question: if you bought the Collection a while ago and there has been expansions and DLC's released since you bought and installed it, if you reinstall it from Gamersgate and even Steam, will you get all of the DLC's released after you bought the Collection? I mean Steam's current HOI3 Collection lists all expansions and DLC's included so if you bought the Collection two years ago, can you reinstall it now and get everything?

Quote from: sandman2575 on February 25, 2014, 09:40:23 AM
I think Nefaro got it right -- from the Pdox site (all caps are from cut&paste, I'm not shouting  :)) -- for Their Finest Hour --

"NEEDS HEARTS OF IRON III COLLECTION OR HEARTS OF IRON III, SEMPER FI AND FOR THE MOTHERLAND TO PLAY"

im stumped, my library just shows HOI III, no mention of TFH but when i start the game its definitely TFH - shrug

Paradox gave me a copy of HOI III collection (can't remember why).  When I decided to sit down and learn it, I picked up Their Finest Hour as well as a few DLC that sounded interesting.  I found out that Their Finest Hour made some pretty drastic changes to the core game mechanics and, because of that, most of the older DLC wouldn't work with TFH.  I get a dual .exe option in the HOI III game folder.  I can either play Their Finest Hour or I can play For The Motherland.  If I choose the latter, I can use all the DLC stuff I bought.  I can't if I choose TFH.

Quote from: WallysWorld on February 25, 2014, 11:45:24 AM
Yes, I bought Hearts of Iron 3 Collection quite a while ago on Gamersgate and have been slowly adding the DLC's released after I bought it.

Here's an interesting question: if you bought the Collection a while ago and there has been expansions and DLC's released since you bought and installed it, if you reinstall it from Gamersgate and even Steam, will you get all of the DLC's released after you bought the Collection? I mean Steam's current HOI3 Collection lists all expansions and DLC's included so if you bought the Collection two years ago, can you reinstall it now and get everything?

No.  The "Collection" version doesn't come with TFH.  IIRC.  YMMV.  CYA.   So you'll have to buy that separately if you haven't already.  It was released after the Collection version.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 25, 2014, 01:13:39 PM
Paradox gave me a copy of HOI III collection (can't remember why).  When I decided to sit down and learn it, I picked up Their Finest Hour as well as a few DLC that sounded interesting.  I found out that Their Finest Hour made some pretty drastic changes to the core game mechanics and, because of that, most of the older DLC wouldn't work with TFH.  I get a dual .exe option in the HOI III game folder.  I can either play Their Finest Hour or I can play For The Motherland. If I choose the latter, I can use all the DLC stuff I bought.  I can't if I choose TFH.

Now this is really odd.  I've never seen a Pdox game do such a thing before.  Was TFH originally a mod that changed lots of stuff or something?  Maybe they had a last moment modular install decision.  All game series should these days!

If this is the case then you probably don't need the previous expansions, as UCG says.

Quote from: Nefaro on February 25, 2014, 01:45:41 PM

Quote from: WallysWorld on February 25, 2014, 11:45:24 AM
Yes, I bought Hearts of Iron 3 Collection quite a while ago on Gamersgate and have been slowly adding the DLC's released after I bought it.

Here's an interesting question: if you bought the Collection a while ago and there has been expansions and DLC's released since you bought and installed it, if you reinstall it from Gamersgate and even Steam, will you get all of the DLC's released after you bought the Collection? I mean Steam's current HOI3 Collection lists all expansions and DLC's included so if you bought the Collection two years ago, can you reinstall it now and get everything?

No.  The "Collection" version doesn't come with TFH.  IIRC.  YMMV.  CYA.   So you'll have to buy that separately if you haven't already.  It was released after the Collection version.

Actually TFH is listed as being part of the Collection on Steam right now:  http://store.steampowered.com/sub/37223/ (http://store.steampowered.com/sub/37223/) In fact, I see Semper Fi and FTM as well along with the newest DLC's listed with this package. I don't see anything missing.

Quote from: WallysWorld on February 25, 2014, 02:50:34 PM

Actually TFH is listed as being part of the Collection on Steam right now:  http://store.steampowered.com/sub/37223/ (http://store.steampowered.com/sub/37223/) In fact, I see Semper Fi and FTM as well along with the newest DLC's listed with this package. I don't see anything missing.

That may be the case with buying the latest "Collection" version from Steam.  I dunno.  I had bought my Collection version from Gamersgate a couple years ago and it doesn't have TFH, as shown:

http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-HOI3C/hearts-of-iron-3-collection

TFH was released after I bought this one and, AFAIK, was never added to it.

*shrug*

Quote from: WallysWorld on February 25, 2014, 02:50:34 PM
Actually TFH is listed as being part of the Collection on Steam right now:  http://store.steampowered.com/sub/37223/ (http://store.steampowered.com/sub/37223/) In fact, I see Semper Fi and FTM as well along with the newest DLC's listed with this package. I don't see anything missing.

Score one for Steam. Apparently Steam collections of Paradox games are more complete than the GamersGate collections.

I am pure Steam now. Avoiding GG as much as possible.

Quote from: jomni on February 25, 2014, 04:53:46 PM
I am pure Steam now. Avoiding GG as much as possible.

Why?  A bunch of the GG stuff is just Steam keys anymore.

Yeah.  I mean I get Steam codes from a lot of sources.  I prefer games in Steam now because of easy patching.  My GG experience wasn't too nice because of slow download times in my location.

I prefer GG versions to Steam.  I usually play Paradox titles on my laptop when I'm traveling or on night-shift.  Even if I put Steam into offline mode before I leave, it sometimes "forgets" and tries to start normally and then won't let me play my games.  With GG, I don't have to worry about online connections.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 25, 2014, 06:07:24 PM
I prefer GG versions to Steam.  I usually play Paradox titles on my laptop when I'm traveling or on night-shift.  Even if I put Steam into offline mode before I leave, it sometimes "forgets" and tries to start normally and then won't let me play my games.  With GG, I don't have to worry about online connections.

Moot point with some publishers, since they've gone Steam-only. 

I guess packaging patches and uploading them to more than one retailer is too much work.  ::)


We can supposedly run Paradox titles straight from their install folder, but I'm not sure if that's still the case with all the Steam integration they've done in their newest titles.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 25, 2014, 06:07:24 PM
I prefer GG versions to Steam.  I usually play Paradox titles on my laptop when I'm traveling or on night-shift.  Even if I put Steam into offline mode before I leave, it sometimes "forgets" and tries to start normally and then won't let me play my games.  With GG, I don't have to worry about online connections.

You dont have to put Steam in offline mode in advance.
Once you are at a location without internet, Steam will ask you if you want to continue in offline mode. But it does take some time. I seems to be waiting for a time-out or something. Definately could be improved.
But AFAIK you can always run Steam in offline mode on the fly. I do that often on my laptop too when I am abroad.

Not my experience.  I just get a message telling me there's no connection and it doesn't give me an option for offline mode.  It's unreliable and it often "forgets" that it's been put into offline mode. 

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 27, 2014, 01:59:23 AM
Not my experience.  I just get a message telling me there's no connection and it doesn't give me an option for offline mode.  It's unreliable and it often "forgets" that it's been put into offline mode.

I've also had it tell me that I need to log into Steam in the past, after having it in Offline Mode a few days, and it wouldn't let me do anything else until I did. 

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 23, 2014, 11:47:36 PM
My reorganized western divisions swept through the Netherlands. All Dutch provinces are occupied, but those stubborn SOBs refuse to capitulate. Their divisions fight on. I've also swung into parts of Belgium, but like the Dutch, they are putting up one hell of a fight. I sustained heavy losses taking Antwerp and Brussels just does not want to fall. My last attack cost me over 9000 men. It's still 1940, and I'm confident the Dutch and Flemish will surrender...the question is, can I force that before the French go on the offensive?

Although the French are assisting Belgium and holland with considerable divisions, they seem to have the majority of their forces guarding our mutual border. I want it stay that way, even though I'm forced to commit considerable forces on the border, as well. If the French attacked into Germany, I suspect it would tip the balance in the allies' favor. My units fighting in Holland and Belgium are tired.

The Russians seem to be quiet too. I need that war to stay cold for now.

JH...does the campaign continue? I was enjoying your updates, they read like an AAR. Have you invaded France?

Quote from: Rayfer on February 27, 2014, 01:05:25 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 23, 2014, 11:47:36 PM
My reorganized western divisions swept through the Netherlands. All Dutch provinces are occupied, but those stubborn SOBs refuse to capitulate. Their divisions fight on. I've also swung into parts of Belgium, but like the Dutch, they are putting up one hell of a fight. I sustained heavy losses taking Antwerp and Brussels just does not want to fall. My last attack cost me over 9000 men. It's still 1940, and I'm confident the Dutch and Flemish will surrender...the question is, can I force that before the French go on the offensive?

Although the French are assisting Belgium and holland with considerable divisions, they seem to have the majority of their forces guarding our mutual border. I want it stay that way, even though I'm forced to commit considerable forces on the border, as well. If the French attacked into Germany, I suspect it would tip the balance in the allies' favor. My units fighting in Holland and Belgium are tired.

The Russians seem to be quiet too. I need that war to stay cold for now.

JH...does the campaign continue? I was enjoying your updates, they read like an AAR. Have you invaded France?

Thank you! Yes, I was hoping the discussion would shift away from DRM and back on to the topic.

Anyway, I have invaded France, but it would be disingenuous to describe the war as anything, but a stalemate. I just cannot crack them enough to make significant gains. I have occupied all of the Netherlands and 95% of Belgium; the Belgians are holding out in one province. I've made some gains in France along the Northern coast, reaching as far as Calais. I've also broken through in the South, but do not have enough divisions to maintain the front line in the north and take advantage of the gains in the South. Slowly, I am creeping towards Paris.

The problem is that despite losing clearly, neither the Dutch, nor the Belgians have surrendered. They still have significant formations in the field that tie down a significant percentage of my offensive power.

If I keep at it, I am confident I will eventually take Paris, but it probably wouldn't be until late 1942. I'm thinking of redeploying even more of my Eastern front forces to the west, but to do so will leave me exposed in East and may encourage Russian intervention. I am building new divisions all the time, but this is a slow process and new formations are added to the front in piecemeal fashion.

Italy has joined me in the war against France, but they are not doing shit to help me. The French do have a lot of force stationed on their border with the Italians, but I want the Italians to attack. Diplomatically, I do not see an option to help me encourage that sort of action.   I hope to be in a position to get Nationalist Spain to join the Axis and then enter the war against France, as well, but who knows when, or even if this will happen.

^Sounds like an historically authentic Italian response :)

Holland and Belgium have holdings elsewhere - I had this with Portugal thinking I'd kicked their ass but they were hiding across the globe I had to go there to force surrender

Quote from: undercovergeek on February 27, 2014, 03:42:22 PM
Holland and Belgium have holdings elsewhere - I had this with Portugal thinking I'd kicked their ass but they were hiding across the globe I had to go there to force surrender

Yes. They are, in essence, governments in exile.

Well, I've spent hours trying to crack the code of the western front. Unfortunately, I just don't have enough strength to make a lasting breakthrough.  Typically, any gains I make in the north are offset by losses in the south and vise-verse. My forces are still creeping towards PAris, but it is all too frustrating and I know there must be a better way.

So, I'm going to try one more strategy for shits and giggles and if it doesn't work, I am probably going to start over. Now that I know the potential force necessary to succeed in the West, I would make different production decisions in the years leading up to the war.

Anyway, as a last ditch effort, I am going to redeploy the majority of my divisions guarding the eastern front.  That means redeploying 10 to 15 divisions (2 to 3 Army Corps) over to the West. That will leave the border with the USSR dangerously unguarded. I'll have maybe one army corps with 5 divisions left in the east. If the Russians wanted to, they could literally walk into Poland, and then continue through most of Germany. It would be more of a leisurely sight-seeing vacation for them, then an actual invasion.  At this point though, I figure, what the hell do I have to lose?

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 28, 2014, 09:41:48 AM
Well, I've spent hours trying to crack the code of the western front. Unfortunately, I just don't have enough strength to make a lasting breakthrough.  Typically, any gains I make in the north are offset by losses in the south and vise-verse. My forces are still creeping towards PAris, but it is all too frustrating and I know there must be a better way.

I've never been able to pull off the von Manstein plan for encircling the French/BEF.  The game map just isn't nuanced enough.  What has always worked for me is the Schlieffen plan of WWI vintage, where I outflank the French/BEF by spearheading along the coastline, while applying pressure and tying down enemy forces along the rest of the front.

German invasion of France is always more of a slog in HOI3 than it was historically.  It's worse if you play with BlackICE mod, which enhances the BEF and makes for tougher fighting and more attrition. 

^This is good to know. I was starting to believe that I really just sucked at this.

Seems like my last ditch gamble paid off. I have strong formations right on the outskirts of Paris. Taking the city won't be easy, but I do feel it is inevitable. If the French do not surrender after Paris falls, I am going to lose my shit and probably never play this game again.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not but you can check a country's surrender likelihood on the diplomacy screen.  There's a green bar above the country stats.  If you hover the mouse pointer over that bar for a few seconds, a pop up will appear that shows surrender progress.

I don't think France counts as a core of Germany so it's unlikely they'll surrender but there might be some Vichy rule that I am not aware of.  I've never played as Germany.

And head for the big vp provinces.   8)

I was just about to surround Paris and felt as if the French were finally beginning to break when...the USSR declared war. Son of a b*tch!

Sounds like you are toast.  You should fire up EUIV so we can both flail around Europe.  Check out the Wiki.  I am reading through it now.  It's been super helpful.


http://www.eu4wiki.com/Main_Page

Quote from: MetalDog on March 01, 2014, 01:18:27 PM
Sounds like you are toast.  You should fire up EUIV so we can both flail around Europe.  Check out the Wiki.  I am reading through it now.  It's been super helpful.


http://www.eu4wiki.com/Main_Page

Yeah. I think I'm going to tap out of HOI3 for now. I'm supposed to leave for Florida tomorrow if I can beat the snow. I'll install EUIV on my laptop. Hopefully it will run ok. I'm sure I'll have some down time next week while I'm away to connect and play.

Quote from: MetalDog on March 01, 2014, 01:18:27 PM
Sounds like you are toast.  You should fire up EUIV so we can both flail around Europe.  Check out the Wiki.  I am reading through it now.  It's been super helpful.


http://www.eu4wiki.com/Main_Page

I've been sorely tempted in getting the latest DLC and starting a fresh game of EU4.  Hopefully the randomized New World option is in decent shape.

Was trying to play a long stretch of CK2 and then convert that campaign to EU4.  Curious as to how well that works.  But playing about 500 years of CK2 would take quite awhile. 

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 01, 2014, 12:18:49 PM
I was just about to surround Paris and felt as if the French were finally beginning to break when...the USSR declared war. Son of a b*tch!

really? what year?

thats harsh

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 01, 2014, 03:55:41 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 01, 2014, 12:18:49 PM
I was just about to surround Paris and felt as if the French were finally beginning to break when...the USSR declared war. Son of a b*tch!

really? what year?

thats harsh

early 1942.

Had you gone through the whole ribbentrop mechanics? I ask only because I've never seen them make the first move

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 02, 2014, 04:54:49 AM
Had you gone through the whole ribbentrop mechanics? I ask only because I've never seen them make the first move

Not that I'm aware of. There were no national decisions to make or historical pop-ups that occurred prior to their declaration of war.

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 02, 2014, 04:54:49 AM
Had you gone through the whole ribbentrop mechanics? I ask only because I've never seen them make the first move

I'm pretty sure the AI Soviets have always eventually attacked ze Germans in the HOI series, if not attacked themselves.  Did this stop happening in HOI3?

in every game ive played as the germans ive always tried to avoid the push east knowing it was suicide, ive gone as far as turkey, and finland and theyve never attacked

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 02, 2014, 03:58:39 PM
in every game ive played as the germans ive always tried to avoid the push east knowing it was suicide, ive gone as far as turkey, and finland and theyve never attacked

This must be the only WW2 grand strategy game I've played in which it doesn't happen, in that case.  Kinda sad but perhaps that makes up for France not giving up so quickly?  :P

I hasten to add there were 105 divisions on the border

I almost bought the HOI III collection on Steam yesterday.

Instead I bought a game for my daughter.

My priorities need tweaking...then again she doesn't have 90-some-odd games like her old man does, that he hardly ever plays.

JH....still playing? Or did the mighty Russian bear prevail and bring Germany to its knees? You got me interested in this game. I had bought it a long time back in one of those sales, with all the DLC but had never played it. Playing now as the USA in Their Finest Hour. Started in the 1936 campaign. It's now late 1939, Japan is rolling over China and Germany has invaded Poland. Things should be getting interesting real soon.  This is my first play at the game so I'm hoping I researched the right stuff. Time will tell.