So I fired this up last night (and the night before actually) and found myself infuriated with the design as I always end up doing.
Most of my frustration comes from some key things - which leave me sitting there thinking "Really?" as my wee pixel troops keel over.
So it's in the bocage. The first infuriating thing is trying to identify holes in the bocage...it's a whole other thing watching your troops get murdered as they go through that hole...but ne'ar mind that. Trying to find a hole.
The next thing, again with bocage, is trying to position your MG-42 in such a way that it can actually fire through that hole. I do not know how many times I tried to get that MG-42 positioned at the hole so it could cover the farmhouse not 100 yards away. In the end, they went the other side and were under fire in short order.
The next thing is visibility. At roughly the same location, I was coming under sporadic fire from the farmhouse. So I get my troops and target the building...but the LoS seems to stop half way across the field. I'm looking, from ground level where my troops are, straight towards the building only to see the top two levels of the building. I'm trying to target the building...not specific enemy troops which are highlighted (light green) by the way so presumably my troops know they're there...and cannot...from half way across the field...and I'm left wondering WHY?
Then there's the Target Arcs. This could be my lack of understanding. But here goes...I saw a Stuart tank less than 50 yards across the field. I set my Panzerschreck team to Target Armour Arc to the location where the tank is and then move them to the edge of the bocage where they can have a good fire position...when they get there, they do nothing. Not a thing. Just sit there looking to the right hand side of the tank because apparently because their viewing position has changed, so has their "Target Armour Arc"...to the right of the tank.
There are those big stupid highlighted squares that show up when you are trying to move troops. You just cannot set them with any degree of accuracy.
Eventually, I get my Panzershreck team up into the farm building. I have a platoon on the second floor who took out the enemy unit in there and they are now providing suppressing fire. The PS team have a clear LoS to the tank. It's less than 100 yards away on a lane. I order the team, time and again, to attack the tank. I try the Target Armour Arc again to leave it to them...nothing. I try targeting it specifically...again nothing. All they do is move from the top floor to the middle floor. With my PS team selected there is a highlighted tank icon above the Stuart...so they can see it. And they have 5 rounds left.
Don't even get me started on 1 minute impulses which I accidentally switched on for the scenario.
I find the game something I really, really want to play. Everything about the game is right up my street...but the mechanisms in place just make it infuriating. It is an exercise in futility and patience.
I do not doubt my little pixel soldiers die quite often through a lack of my tactical skills...but there is definitely a lack of finesse with positioning, LoS and LoF which makes the game incredibly frustrating for me.
Perhaps the engine isn't suited to the bocage with the lack of accuracy for placing troops? Maybe that's why I much prefer CMSF? CMSF does not have the enclosed, tight spaces this has and therefore likely less frustrating - though I do prefer the modern weapons (just not the region).
Everything about this game and engine screams "LOVE ME". It should be my gaming nirvana. Unfortunately, I end up feeling totally mentally screwed after playing a very, very small scenario - 3 platoons, an MG unit, a Panzershreck unit and a scout car.
I have some of the same issues. This is why I frequently fire up CMx1. Just seems to play more smoothly.
To be fair, I don't think any 3D games at this level have ever been able to smoothly model bocage fighting.
Nevertheless, I also have trouble getting some LOS positioning and troop placement to work as they look like they should. Nature of the beast?
I just wish I could enjoy it as much as others seem to. It's not like the game should fight me from a requirement perspective...it's everything I would want in a tactical game
Maybe I should try Fortress Italy and get the hell out of the bocage
Go play other theatres.
Those that don't have bocage.
And play in real time.
But as for me, I stopped playing CMSF a long time ago and not looking to play more of it. It was a good game though.
That what I said - Fortress Italy might give me a better experience. It could be that it will give me enough of a positive experience that Market Garden might become a temptation.
I do play in real time...I just accidentally set it to 1 minute pulses last night. What a nightmare trying to get multiple things to happen in that minute or wasting enough seconds that your troops get discovered and slaughtered!
And I never had a problem with CMSF (except the theatre). I always thought I preferred that over CM:BfN because of the modern weapons, but I found that strange as I've always been very interested in WWII - especially hardware...who doesn't like a Firefly, M10, Panther of Tiger? But it actually could be more frustrating because of the bocage and it's that which kills it for me.
Panzershreks wont fire from a building
You can only target any part of a building when you can see ALL of the buildings foot print, or a unit in it
trust the tac ai - run the shrek team to the hedge and leave the AI to control the team, if they can see the tank, theyll shoot at it, the last thing you should try and do is micromanage the troops, i have and will continue to play whole month long pbems without giving any of my troops a target order, theyll do it themselves when they get there, just get them to a firing point safely and in good order and they will do the rest themselves
QuotePanzershreks wont fire from a building
lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?
So - these troops, the MG-42 bunch, they were on a hill, and because they couldn't see the base of the building, they couldn't shoot at the upper floors? WOW. I never knew that - and more to the point, there must've been a very good reason for it (though for the life of me I can't figure it out) because that's bizarre in the extreme and most definitely seems to be the reason why I find this so frustrating!
That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building, and so can only suppress whatever is there IF the enemy show their faces...in other words, my troops were taking fire and being suppressed because they couldn't initiate "firepower supremacy"? Oh dear oh dear.
I do, however, take your point on micro managing. But often I want to get my troops to target a seemingly vacant area (say the building at the other end of a field - which you KNOW will be occupied) whilst I move troops across it...called suppression. Don't you ever want to do that?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 06:46:28 AM
I've always been very interested in WWII - especially hardware...who doesn't like a Firefly, M10, Panther of Tiger?
Big "MEH".
:P
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building...
That has always been one of the complaints about CMx2. It definitely irked me every time I experienced it.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
QuotePanzershreks wont fire from a building
lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?
So - these troops, the MG-42 bunch, they were on a hill, and because they couldn't see the base of the building, they couldn't shoot at the upper floors? WOW. I never knew that - and more to the point, there must've been a very good reason for it (though for the life of me I can't figure it out) because that's bizarre in the extreme and most definitely seems to be the reason why I find this so frustrating!
That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building, and so can only suppress whatever is there IF the enemy show their faces...in other words, my troops were taking fire and being suppressed because they couldn't initiate "firepower supremacy"? Oh dear oh dear.
I do, however, take your point on micro managing. But often I want to get my troops to target a seemingly vacant area (say the building at the other end of a field - which you KNOW will be occupied) whilst I move troops across it...called suppression. Don't you ever want to do that?
re the shreks - im sure IRL its not a very good idea, BUT if it was choke on smoke and dust and suffer deafness for a bit or shoot at the tank right outside the window that was just about to spot me, im sure we'd all fire - but its not modelled
the footpeint - yup, massive PITA, something to do with needing a clear LOS to the centre of the square
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
QuotePanzershreks wont fire from a building
lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?
JD you want a historical accurate answer. :)
i went upstairs and asked my dad (89) he was in the field test platoon feb/mar 44 at the eastern front as grunt, his Schirmeister invented that blast shield you all know from the pictures. 8)
He never shot from inside a building at the eastern front or witnessed other doing that ... simply there where just no buildings in the area, just landscape
He thinks it would have been considered to dangerous that it would have been ordered to do if buildings were available.
Cool story - thanks MikeGer. That at least explains why they weren't obeying my order to fire.
I'll echo what Geek said. I let my troops sight their own targets mostly, they seem to do a better job than if I tell them where to look and what to shoot at especially if they're experienced. If they are "Green" or have a poor morale or leader rating, then I try to help them out. LOS In the bocage can be frustrating but if your troops can't see anything, try giving them a "Hunt" command along the hedge and let them move along until they spot something. Or if they're LOS is good where they are, leave them there. The AI tanks are blind as a bat when buttoned-up and will occasionally move into your LOS. Give the AI a chance to make a mistake instead of you making one. The Italian theatre plays much differently than Normandy. The LOS is much more open, but enemy units can still hide very well and shoot your ass off clear across the map. Leading with your infantry here is a path to their destruction. It's your tanks that must do the heavy work-- something that would get them killed dead in the bocage. Finally, don't worry about the time limit. The battle will continue for some time after the time is up if your units are still engaged or close to the enemy, as long as an extra 10 min. for me. The biggest mistakes I've made are always RUSHING my advances. Try an easier difficulity level too if the game seems too hard to beat. I believe the game patches have made the game tougher to beat.
lol - thanks. This was on BASIC. (I did say I was crap in a roundabout way) :P
You think you're bad. Have you ever have the enemy soldiers laugh at you the way they do me when I play? I swear one German even mooned me one time.
Quote from: undercovergeek on February 27, 2014, 08:48:36 AM
re the shreks - im sure IRL its not a very good idea, BUT if it was choke on smoke and dust and suffer deafness
That wasn't the issue. It was a recoilless weapon firing a ROCKET. The issue was severely burning you and your buddy with the discharge from the ROCKET PROPELLED MUNITION.
Quote from: MikeGER on February 27, 2014, 10:17:50 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
QuotePanzershreks wont fire from a building
lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?
JD you want a historical accurate answer. :)
i went upstairs and asked my dad (89) he was in the field test platoon feb/mar 44 at the eastern front as grunt, his Schirmeister invented that blast shield you all know from the pictures. 8)
He never shot from inside a building at the eastern front or witnessed other doing that ... simply there where just no buildings in the area, just landscape
He thinks it would have been considered to dangerous that it would have been ordered to do if buildings were available.
I was flipping through a picture book just today about German weapons and it was talking about that shield. Apparently they issued out gasmask and face shields and protective clothing initally and they were all so cumbersome, the shield was finally developed as a much better solution.
I have fired the 84mm Carl Gustav on the range; it is hard to gain an appreciation for those innocuous looking weapons until you experience them firsthand.
I would suggest you take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbE8795rt2s
There's a crapload of hints and tips in there on how your units respond, what they can and cannot do and most of all what you should and should not do in relation to the game engine and its inevitable abstraction.
It's a long video, but it'll make you much better as a pixeltruppen commander.
Fighting in the bocage wasn't much fun in real life and guess what? It's not much fun in a game either? ::)
Playing the CM2 demos I never could figure out the spotting, sometimes your selected unit can see the enemy (enemy icon highlighted) it's with-in weapon range but, you can't target the enemy even though they can shoot you? I never even seen anyone in a AAR explain it either, it's like Battlefront said it working so no one even questions it! Remember if Steve said the world is flat then you must believe! ;D
Thank you all for the superb advice.
Who would've thought that if you leave your troops to do their thing you'd get better results.
The abstraction is a total pita...thinking you have control when you don't leaves you somewhat bewildered. I do recall now reading that the base of the square is the LOS spot and I remember thinking it was a pita back then.
However - I took all your advice, put my troops on hunt and headed towards the orchard...slowly but surely they started to engage. I took a hands off approach...let them engage...and didn't try arcs of fire or engage - just let them do it. And, for the first time ever, not only did I get a victory, I got as decisive victory.
What definitely helped was not pissing about with the ridiculous placement squares...generally often does. Also understand line of sight helped a great deal.
Sgt Rock - that was the other infuriating thing - having your unit selected and seeing a highlighted enemy unit and not being able to target them, even though they are shooting you up. Now I understand the LoS bollox, I'll take that on the chin a bit better - it'll at least not be confusing anymore (well, until I forget again!) ::)
So thank you...that was, by far, the only enjoyable time I've had playing that game!
And Yskonyn - I will watch that video thanks.
And a second total victory...what are you boys like?!
Both tiny scenarios - but the first bit of fun I've had with CM:BfN...not because I won (though that is a nice plus) but because I now know wtf is going on and am avoiding the things that didn't work and I couldn't work out why...thinking it was my idiotic fault when all the while it was the game mechanics and abstraction!
Congrats Dredd on the wins. I'm looking forward to the JudgeDredd Tactics Video soon to be posted. My favorite tactic is when I get too far behind in a battle, accidently kick the power cord and crash the game. I call it the "Nuclear Option".
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 06:28:24 PM
And a second total victory...what are you boys like?!
Both tiny scenarios - but the first bit of fun I've had with CM:BfN...not because I won (though that is a nice plus) but because I now know wtf is going on and am avoiding the things that didn't work and I couldn't work out why...thinking it was my idiotic fault when all the while it was the game mechanics and abstraction!
Yayyy
He's ready for pbem boys
Haha! Yay!
The thing I find hardest in any CM game is when to decide the scouting / stealth should be over and a proper attack is the best course of action from there on.
I always think, "But what if my opponent has this annihilation trick up his sleede I have not spotted yet!".
For example; I recently scouted a farm site which I knew was occupied by the Germans. Scouting didn't reveil very much, but it was a victory condition to take it.
Once I started to 'poke by Fire' nothing happened either.
Perhaps its safe to Assault then. So I did, supported by two Light Tanks.
One of them got knocked out immediately by an unknown source once it drove up into the field and opened Fire on the farm.
Argh! And I was so darn careful!
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 27, 2014, 01:56:35 PM
Apparently they issued out gasmask and face shields and protective clothing initally and they were all so cumbersome, the shield was finally developed as a much better solution.
this is correct, the early version was operated with a gas-mask, a hood (Schießhaube, called Eulenspiegel by the troops), and long sleeved gloves (Schießhandschuhe) the "Schirmeister" its a Feldwebel rank dedicated to equipment invented the shield. All field testing was under the direct oversight of Generalmajor Ranft... its was kind of impressive for the soldiers involved to see such a high ranking officer so close to a subunit. Also i can report that the Offenrohr was often used in a poor mans 'Artillery' role, cause there were just no other means left....
Quote from: undercovergeek on February 28, 2014, 02:26:02 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 06:28:24 PM
And a second total victory...what are you boys like?!
Both tiny scenarios - but the first bit of fun I've had with CM:BfN...not because I won (though that is a nice plus) but because I now know wtf is going on and am avoiding the things that didn't work and I couldn't work out why...thinking it was my idiotic fault when all the while it was the game mechanics and abstraction!
Yayyy
He's ready for pbem boys
Probably not ;D
For one, I most definitely do NOT like the 1 minute impulses. I really, really detest them.
However - that could be my lack of understanding of the system...so here's a question...I know you can give movement orders consecutively and watch them carry them out...but what if you have an MG42 - can you issue it a move, then a deploy and they'll deploy at the last movement point? What about Pioneers? Move and blast? Infantry, move, move, assault?
The one thing I do like about the impulse method is being able to replay so you can see what took your team out, or at least maybe get an idea of location.
yeah you can give a whole list of orders - run to this, hunt through there, stop there, set up mg42 there
tank goes, here, here, here, hunts here, reverses here
not a problem
Maybe I'll give WEGO another, erm....go ;)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 28, 2014, 05:44:59 AM
Maybe I'll give WEGO another, erm....go ;)
It's much easier to just play in real-time and pause it whenever you need to.
That may not prepare you for PBEM but I get the impression that it's not high on your list. So go real-time is my recommendation. The time between turns is far too long in turn-based mode.
ahhh but you miss out on all the little hollywood moments that make the game so great, watch them over and over again from anywhere on the battlefield
I do prefer real time, but that did surprise me because I was a huge fan of WEGO in the original. I was just thinking maybe I didn't like it in the new engine because I was doing all that micro-management
It seems others have covered your questions JudgeDredd, but to elaborate further on the area fire issue you raised. CM models point to point LOS/LOF, but before that because it is huge resource hog, it does an initial LOS calculation from AS to AS. That's why you couldn't area fire the 2nd floor of a building without LOS to the 1st floor, yet you could fire on enemy troops on the 2nd floor once they were spotted because then the game had performed the more detailed LOS/LOF check. Make sense? It has been a core limitation with the game since the start with CMSF, so I am surprised you hadn't noticed before. Anyways knowledge is key!
Thanks Zonso
Like I said, I do recall finding that out some time ago - I've just got a terrible memory and it will likely be forgotten again sometime in the near future.
I have seldom played this because I always found aspects infuriatingly difficult and not very self-explanatory, but the suggestions on this thread and knowing now what I know have made my first two "new" attempts to play the game less frustrating.
Quote from: MikeGER on February 28, 2014, 03:47:17 AM
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 27, 2014, 01:56:35 PM
Apparently they issued out gasmask and face shields and protective clothing initally and they were all so cumbersome, the shield was finally developed as a much better solution.
this is correct, the early version was operated with a gas-mask, a hood (Schießhaube, called Eulenspiegel by the troops), and long sleeved gloves (Schießhandschuhe) the "Schirmeister" its a Feldwebel rank dedicated to equipment invented the shield. All field testing was under the direct oversight of Generalmajor Ranft... its was kind of impressive for the soldiers involved to see such a high ranking officer so close to a subunit. Also i can report that the Offenrohr was often used in a poor mans 'Artillery' role, cause there were just no other means left....
Whatever works. I have read field reports from Canadian troops that the PIAT was also used as a mortar. Not because they were poor in artillery, but because, apparently, it was effective. I doubt anyone thought to use it that way on a testing range in England, but in the field, desperate times call for desperate measures...
Thanks for your insights, very interesting. I'm familiar with the Schirmeister appointment title, incidentally - the Wehrmacht seemed to have a title for everything. My favourite has to be the one for pigeon-post-master, but I suspect the troops' favourite was Zahlmeister...
Quote from: MikeGER on February 27, 2014, 10:17:50 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
QuotePanzershreks wont fire from a building
lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?
JD you want a historical accurate answer. :)
i went upstairs and asked my dad (89) he was in the field test platoon feb/mar 44 at the eastern front as grunt, his Schirmeister invented that blast shield you all know from the pictures. 8)
He never shot from inside a building at the eastern front or witnessed other doing that ... simply there where just no buildings in the area, just landscape
He thinks it would have been considered to dangerous that it would have been ordered to do if buildings were available.
+1 on that. He is right because the backblast can kill/injure you, and usually in a building you're in a confined space, which makes it worse. When I was in the army we still used the Carl Gustav, which worked on a similar principle, and we were warned of the danger many times.
Quote from: undercovergeek on February 27, 2014, 07:29:28 AM
Panzershreks wont fire from a building
You can only target any part of a building when you can see ALL of the buildings foot print, or a unit in it
trust the tac ai - run the shrek team to the hedge and leave the AI to control the team, if they can see the tank, theyll shoot at it, the last thing you should try and do is micromanage the troops, i have and will continue to play whole month long pbems without giving any of my troops a target order, theyll do it themselves when they get there, just get them to a firing point safely and in good order and they will do the rest themselves
+1. Definitely.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=396925580444582
Backblast.
Don't endorse or recommend the comments section, but the video is an effective demonstration of the dangers of not checking the danger zone behind the weapon.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 28, 2014, 10:44:57 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=396925580444582
Backblast.
Don't endorse or recommend the comments section, but the video is an effective demonstration of the dangers of not checking the danger zone behind the weapon.
Ouch.
Wow. That's pretty explicit. WARNING to those who have trouble seeing people die in a mist of blood.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 28, 2014, 10:44:57 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=396925580444582
Backblast.
Don't endorse or recommend the comments section, but the video is an effective demonstration of the dangers of not checking the danger zone behind the weapon.
Lol. The only thing better than that was the Al Qaeda carbomb instructor blowing up 22(?) terrorist trainees!
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 27, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
QuotePanzershreks wont fire from a building
lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?
So - these troops, the MG-42 bunch, they were on a hill, and because they couldn't see the base of the building, they couldn't shoot at the upper floors? WOW. I never knew that - and more to the point, there must've been a very good reason for it (though for the life of me I can't figure it out) because that's bizarre in the extreme and most definitely seems to be the reason why I find this so frustrating!
That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building, and so can only suppress whatever is there IF the enemy show their faces...in other words, my troops were taking fire and being suppressed because they couldn't initiate "firepower supremacy"? Oh dear oh dear.
I do, however, take your point on micro managing. But often I want to get my troops to target a seemingly vacant area (say the building at the other end of a field - which you KNOW will be occupied) whilst I move troops across it...called suppression. Don't you ever want to do that?
What you need to consider is that a panzerschreck fires a rocket, so you will have a flaming backlash of around 5-10 meter. During training of new soldiers we sometimes showed a filmed incident of a guy standing to close to the backlash of a rocket being fired albeit from a modern Carl Gustav. needless to say he was burned quite badly
Oh and a Little anecdote:
once when I was out on the shooting range with the Companies Carl Gustav teams I had to act as security personel (dunno the proper English Word for it). in effect your standing between two teams making sure they keep the weapon pointing in the right direction at all time and using proper procedure for loading etc.
Anyways your only supposed to stand there for around 1 hour at a time. me being a cocky Little bastard didnt really listen to the older NCOs advice so I volunteered to keep my post which meant that after around 3 hours I had to vomit because of force of the backlash from firing the damn thing. Everytime it fires your stomach turns when your standing right next to it :)
Starting to share Dredd's frustration. I managed to finish the CMFI-- 2nd battle of the Troina campaign over the weekend-- Hill 1209. This battle is a Bitch In Heat tough but after almost giving up more than once, we managed to find a little gap in the German defenses and as time ran out on the scenario, scaled the summit and took proper vengeance on the German mortar crews who had made the previous 1 hour+ such a misery. With 3 of 5 objectives secured and more than 100 Germans KIA, I thought I had done the impossible-- won a minor victory. Only to find that the game disagreed, a US Army Minor Defeat. Some how the AI Germans got a bunch of points from somewhere and beat me. Doesn't matter in the campaign but it doesn't fair. I had only 30 KIA, with a lot more wounded but still. Anyway I consider it a Personal Victory which I will proudly place in my Personal Victory Award showcase which is filled with other stuff nobody cares about or wants to hear about but I will threaten to tell them about when they annoy me. ;D
youre on top of the hill surrounded by dead Germans = you won!
You were "King of the Castle" and the Germans were "Dirty Rascals"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5z4yarSZlw
That's me Dredd. ;D ;D