I'm jonesing for a deeper war game and am looking at both Combat Mission Red Thunder (I haven't played a CM game since the first engine) and Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm. I'm also considering CM:Battles for Normandy but the website doesn't say anything about it running on Win 8.
Thoughts & recommendations?
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 09:06:45 AM
I'm jonesing for a deeper war game and am looking at both Combat Mission Red Thunder (I haven't played a CM game since the first engine) and Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm. I'm also considering CM:Battles for Normandy but the website doesn't say anything about it running on Win 8.
Thoughts & recommendations?
I haven't played Red Storm at all and haven't played CM: Normandy in quite a while BUT I am currently playing CMRT and it is the most deeply satisfying war game I have ever played. It is very atmospheric. I'm in the midst of a modfied (by me) scenario where the Russians try to seize some river crossings on the run with mostly just tanks. I tried it that way and found I needed more Red Hordes to really get all those crossings and the entrenched position guarding them. So I added 3 SMG companies and a recon Company and some 120mm mortars for smoke. The result so far as been a pretty wild battle, but the tanks may soon be breaking out and there will be even more excitement.
On the other hand, if you start on CMRT, be prepared to do some work on learning the system. It can be frustrating.
If you haven't played combat mission in the cmx2 era, RT would be a good one to jump into, east front is always the best for me. CMBM is great really enjoyed the MG module, the 3.0 features will be added by a paid patch eventually.
I haven't played flash point campaigns, I already have steel beasts to scratch the Cold War fulda gap itch.
Quote from: MengJiao on April 11, 2014, 10:56:10 AM
On the other hand, if you start on CMRT, be prepared to do some work on learning the system. It can be frustrating.
Isn't it the same system as CMBO, but with a newer engine? What's changed?
There's a lot of stuff different, main one is it is a 1:1 3d world your working with, cmbo abstracted a lot of things. You can play in rts or wego as well.
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 11:28:22 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on April 11, 2014, 10:56:10 AM
On the other hand, if you start on CMRT, be prepared to do some work on learning the system. It can be frustrating.
Isn't it the same system as CMBO, but with a newer engine? What's changed?
Have a look at some of my reviews. The difference between CMBO, and CMBN is massive. 8)
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 11:28:22 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on April 11, 2014, 10:56:10 AM
On the other hand, if you start on CMRT, be prepared to do some work on learning the system. It can be frustrating.
Isn't it the same system as CMBO, but with a newer engine? What's changed?
Everything. For one thing they gave up on the 1:1 modeling.
Then there are the crazy "action spots" that make it really hard to position infantry realistically or move AVFs and guns to where they can actually shoot something.
Also a very aggressive form of DRM that anchors itself deep in the system, disabled itself when you plug in new hardware (such as a USB headset) and doesn't uninstall when you uninstall the game.
tgb, comparing Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm against Combat Mission Red Thunder is like apples and oranges.
I have both and i highly recommend both!
If you can somehow squeeze off some bucks from other RL-sectores like food, gas, entertainments, get both ... they scratch total different spot in the world of wargaming-joy and both spots want to be scratched badly
CMRT has the latest 3.0 improvements of the actual CM engine and is quite immersive with is 1.1 representation and 'what you see is what you get' on the digital battlefield now (there is always room for improvements but the engine and tactical AI of the units had evolved alot! since CMSF....not to speak of your grandfathers CMBO)
get the latest demo, for familiarizing when you come from CMBO (3.0 improvements are not in that demo, its quite old, but at least you get the idea... I'm not sure if demo is even on 2.0 standarts)
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2143&Itemid=318
FC:RS is more a tactical (board)game (even so individual vehicles are modeled) with 500m hexes and its has a very high replay value just dealing with one single little scenario, again and again and again ... AI plays out different every time and every time its just stunning! and feels quite realistic too
(here also a wishlist exists ...but some wishes get already coded while i type and will show up in the 2.04 patch short behind the horizon)
also get the contest/demo, for a peek
(the scenario is hard cause it was a meant as contest and its also not the latest patch ...so some 'oddities' had already been addressed in the 2.03a patch.... the demo is V2.02 special promo edition)
http://grogheads.com/downloads/FlashpointRedStorm-Setup-Promo.exe
Thanks, all. I think I'm going with Flashpoint Campaigns for two reasons 1) the theater and setting is new to me, so the whole game will be a fresh experience and 2) Matrix>Battlefront.
It's a good wargame. :)
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
Thanks, all. I think I'm going with Flashpoint Campaigns for two reasons 1) the theater and setting is new to me, so the whole game will be a fresh experience and 2) Matrix>Battlefront.
Well leaving the ridiculous post by redwolf aside, the only thing I would say about flashpoint is that whilst it's an excellent game I found it getting very samey after a while. I found most of what I played consisted of holding the line against massively overwhelming Soviet numbers. That's great but personally I just found it getting a bit meh after a while. The maps are relatively small so it largely consisted of setting up blocking positions and falling back. As I say I really liked the way they p u t this game together and will buy the next one without thinking that's just a personal opinion of how I felt after playing it a while.
The cm series are the best war games ever made in my view and one thing they give in spades is atmosphere and variety.
Not criticising your choice and you may find the content interesting for longer than I did it's just a view.
Now I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on either because 1)my backlog and 2) I'm just not used to spending $50 or more on a game any longer.
I feel the way I do every time I try to play WitP - I install it, stare at the screen in bewilderment for a few minutes, and then move on to something else.
I doubt you will stare at the screen in CMRT like WITP, there's 3d pixel troopen to blow up and watch some action go on. You might loose horribly in the learning process but atleast you will get some great battle scenes out of it for entertainment value.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 11, 2014, 02:54:23 PM
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
Thanks, all. I think I'm going with Flashpoint Campaigns for two reasons 1) the theater and setting is new to me, so the whole game will be a fresh experience and 2) Matrix>Battlefront.
Well leaving the ridiculous post by redwolf aside, the only thing I would say about flashpoint is that whilst it's an excellent game I found it getting very samey after a while. I found most of what I played consisted of holding the line against massively overwhelming Soviet numbers. That's great but personally I just found it getting a bit meh after a while. The maps are relatively small so it largely consisted of setting up blocking positions and falling back. As I say I really liked the way they p u t this game together and will buy the next one without thinking that's just a personal opinion of how I felt after playing it a while.
The cm series are the best war games ever made in my view and one thing they give in spades is atmosphere and variety.
Not criticising your choice and you may find the content interesting for longer than I did it's just a view.
CMRT is a good game and worth the money, as discussed on the official forum.
That doesn't change the fact that the issues I mentioned are real, and deliberate choices on part of BFC, and areas where the game is worse than CMx1.
Quote from: Redwolf on April 11, 2014, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 11, 2014, 02:54:23 PM
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
Thanks, all. I think I'm going with Flashpoint Campaigns for two reasons 1) the theater and setting is new to me, so the whole game will be a fresh experience and 2) Matrix>Battlefront.
Well leaving the ridiculous post by redwolf aside, the only thing I would say about flashpoint is that whilst it's an excellent game I found it getting very samey after a while. I found most of what I played consisted of holding the line against massively overwhelming Soviet numbers. That's great but personally I just found it getting a bit meh after a while. The maps are relatively small so it largely consisted of setting up blocking positions and falling back. As I say I really liked the way they p u t this game together and will buy the next one without thinking that's just a personal opinion of how I felt after playing it a while.
The cm series are the best war games ever made in my view and one thing they give in spades is atmosphere and variety.
Not criticising your choice and you may find the content interesting for longer than I did it's just a view.
CMRT is a good game and worth the money, as discussed on the official forum.
That doesn't change the fact that the issues I mentioned are real, and deliberate choices on part of BFC, and areas where the game is worse than CMx1.
Well action spots present issues - sometimes as any game has issues with they way it models anything - just not in the way you said they do nor to the extent you imply. Just the usual hyperbole people seem to have to apply when picking faults with this game for some reason.
I can think of no way CMx1 wins over CMx2 - not one. Otherwise I would be playing that instead of the other. Again - people who cite cmx1 as in some way superior always forget all the things that game didn't do.
I still play CMBB and CMAK a lot. There are periods in there that still aren't and likely will never be covered by CM2. Sometimes I like to see the british fighting it out with some Italians....or Italians on the Eastern Front.
Doen't mean I don't play CM2, but there are things about CM1 that make me open it up almost as much.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 11, 2014, 04:17:31 PM
Well action spots present issues - sometimes as any game has issues with they way it models anything - just not in the way you said they do nor to the extent you imply. Just the usual hyperbole people seem to have to apply when picking faults with this game for some reason.
I can think of no way CMx1 wins over CMx2 - not one. Otherwise I would be playing that instead of the other. Again - people who cite cmx1 as in some way superior always forget all the things that game didn't do.
How much CMx1 did you play?
What feature specifically do you miss in CMx1?
Quote from: tgb on April 11, 2014, 03:20:28 PM
Now I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on either because 1)my backlog and 2) I'm just not used to spending $50 or more on a game any longer.
I feel the way I do every time I try to play WitP - I install it, stare at the screen in bewilderment for a few minutes, and then move on to something else.
Don't buy then! I don't know Flashpoint at all, but CM has that effect on me. I think they're a great series of games, but I somehow never quite get round to playing...Dig something out of your backlog and give that a good go.
Flashpoint Campaigns and Combat Mission Red Thunder are radically different games and not really comparable. That said I have both and can offer some comments:
At first blush Flashpoint Campaigns is a great immersive game. It offers some tense moments holding off the Red hordes at the grand tactical level, ie hexes are 500m iirc. However after repeated play, it is meh more of the same and all the included scenarios basically boil down to the same thing. For a supposedly fluid, modern conflict, the game's limited mechanics forces you to fight from fixed positions until you or the enemy are eliminated to get the best results. Until that is changed with a more detailed SOP type system, and I understand plans are in the works, the longevity just isn't there. I don't regret the purchase, but after playing it isn't something I will likely play again until significant changes are made.
Combat Mission Red Thunder is the latest iteration of the series, version 3, with numerous improvements over the previous series. It is a tactical level game set in the Operation Bagration time frame. Apart from the included scenarios and campaigns, there is a scenario and map editor plus a QB generator so really unlimited replay value. With the inclusion of AI triggers, SP play is definitely more varied and rewarding. I mostly play SP and this game has really raised the bar imo. CMBO to CMRT would be like the Papua New Guinean looking up at the cargo plane for the first time. The series has advanced that far.
Quote from: Redwolf on April 11, 2014, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 11, 2014, 04:17:31 PM
Well action spots present issues - sometimes as any game has issues with they way it models anything - just not in the way you said they do nor to the extent you imply. Just the usual hyperbole people seem to have to apply when picking faults with this game for some reason.
I can think of no way CMx1 wins over CMx2 - not one. Otherwise I would be playing that instead of the other. Again - people who cite cmx1 as in some way superior always forget all the things that game didn't do.
How much CMx1 did you play?
What feature specifically do you miss in CMx1?
Well, I played cmx1 endlessly. Until shock force came out (after they fixed) it and then I played it less. When cmbn came out I didn't play much if any and now don't play at all.
As I said before I can't think of anything I miss from cm 1,perhaps you missed my point?
Cm 1 was a fantastic game but for me at least just a memory now cm 2 is here.
I loaded up the first scenario in the Russian campaign a few days ago and its an example of why I think it's such a good game. No other game gives you that scope and breadth of situations to play out and no game gives such an experience.
Quote from: Redwolf on April 11, 2014, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 11, 2014, 04:17:31 PM
Well action spots present issues - sometimes as any game has issues with they way it models anything - just not in the way you said they do nor to the extent you imply. Just the usual hyperbole people seem to have to apply when picking faults with this game for some reason.
I can think of no way CMx1 wins over CMx2 - not one. Otherwise I would be playing that instead of the other. Again - people who cite cmx1 as in some way superior always forget all the things that game didn't do.
How much CMx1 did you play?
What feature specifically do you miss in CMx1?
Random maps, ease of building some sandbox scenarios, more content overall. I still play CM2, but there are some things it can't do.
Quote from: RyanE on April 12, 2014, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: Redwolf on April 11, 2014, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 11, 2014, 04:17:31 PM
Well action spots present issues - sometimes as any game has issues with they way it models anything - just not in the way you said they do nor to the extent you imply. Just the usual hyperbole people seem to have to apply when picking faults with this game for some reason.
I can think of no way CMx1 wins over CMx2 - not one. Otherwise I would be playing that instead of the other. Again - people who cite cmx1 as in some way superior always forget all the things that game didn't do.
How much CMx1 did you play?
What feature specifically do you miss in CMx1?
Random maps, ease of building some sandbox scenarios, more content overall. I still play CM2, but there are some things it can't do.
Well yes random maps you cant do - but lets be honest - in cm 1 they were pretty dire.
I find building sandbox stuff pretty easy in CM2 - plenty of great maps to do things with so you don't need to expend effort there - especially with the concept of master maps.
I guess one thing I do miss from the CM 1 games is to old campaigns - I know they produced some anomalies at times - but given the larger maps in CM 2 I am pretty disappointed they didn't continue in that vain. I like the new campaigns in some ways if properly created and largely they are - but there was just something about fighting a protracted engagement over the same terrain which gave a sense of immersion to small scale tactical combat
So back to the OP, as you can see CMx2 draws so much discussion. As a grog I recommend every one experience it once. The fact that the engine is now in a 3.0 version and there's plans to keep going, is a testiment.
For the record I caved and bought Flashpoint Campaigns. I took a stab at the tutorial, and realized I had better tackle the manual first, and then read a couple of AAR's. But I like what I see so far.
Quote from: tgb on April 12, 2014, 03:16:40 PM
For the record I caved and bought Flashpoint Campaigns. I took a stab at the tutorial, and realized I had better tackle the manual first, and then read a couple of AAR's. But I like what I see so far.
It's definitely not your typical hex & counter wargame. :D
I'm sure I'll get jumped on for saying this, but it strikes me as being a turn-based variation of the Command Ops engine (in a different theater, obviously)