Naval Gunnery Question

Started by Gusington, February 03, 2012, 10:58:07 AM

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besilarius

#60
February 16, 2012, 07:16:50 PM
There are lots of old sea stories about battleship gunnery.  There were differences between the navies, but everyone realised the trick was hitting first.  The psychological effect of being hit may have been (in the captain's mind) worse than the actual damage.
Getting hits was in practice a challenge.  The interesting thing was that gunnery officers always figured they would get hits by the third salvo.
Don't know if this speaks more to the lack of realism in training exercises or to an overabundance of confidence.
In real life, at longer ranges, it depended on a lot of factors.  When Hood and Prince of Wales made their advance, bow on, to shorten the range, there were near misses, but no hits.  The rapid range changes made it impossible to get a successful firing solution.  (That came with radar ranges and fire control computers.)  The Hood was struck, from all evidence, during her turn.
This suggests she was slowing, during the turn, but also that there would have been a slant on her deck.  Making a turn at high speed, she could have tilted in the direction of the turn by a fairly significant degree, perhaps up to ten degrees.
This may not sound like much, but deck armor was based on bouncing off hits because of the angle of strike.  The nearer to perpendicular a hit made, the better it's chance of penetration.
Now Hood was a patchwork of armor, so it is unwise to suggest we know certainly what happened.
However, it is interesting to speculate what would have happened if Admiral Holland had chosen a shallower approach during which both Hood and POW would have been firing full broadsides.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

besilarius

#61
February 20, 2012, 07:46:39 PM
http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

Here is a link to a very comprehensive comparison of World War II battleships.
The authors are the same folks who wrote Shattered Sword, and they take a lot of factors into consideration.
Almost everything is laid out in tabular form with the most recent research.
Every Battleship fan should read this.  You may not agree with their ratings, but the hard data is all in one place.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

MIGMaster

#62
February 21, 2012, 06:29:56 AM
@ besilarius - thanks for the post, Dude - that's some excellent info. 

mirth

#63
February 21, 2012, 12:57:52 PM
+1 great link Belisarius. Those Shattered Sword guys do know their stuff. That book was incredibly well researched and written.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

besilarius

#64
February 21, 2012, 07:11:00 PM
Glad you enjoyed it.
Somewhere I have a CD with a declassified report on naval gunfire support during Vietnam.  If I can find it (if it wasn't pitched by accident), I'll try and post it.
It is fun because it compares the results of the Iowa to Newport News.  I hope to find it soon.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

besilarius

#65
February 24, 2012, 07:32:22 AM
Don't know if this photo will come through, but this seems to be old enough that it is not photoshopped.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

MIGMaster

#66
February 24, 2012, 07:41:57 AM
Imagine the thrill you'd get being on the deck !!!!!!  :o

Gusington

#67
February 24, 2012, 10:19:57 AM
Imagine the liquid your bowels would turn to once whatever the Hood was firing on fired back!
✡

слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

LongBlade

#68
February 24, 2012, 10:30:15 AM
Quote from: Gusington on February 24, 2012, 10:19:57 AM
Imagine the liquid your bowels would turn to once whatever the Hood was firing on fired back!

I imagine the oceans would seem both terribly vast and deep in that situation.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Gusington

#69
February 24, 2012, 11:00:05 AM
I would not do well on one the decks of one of those ships even while not in combat. As much as I love to study them, the sea, and naval combat, are terrifying to me.
✡

слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

besilarius

#70
March 08, 2012, 07:27:37 PM
http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Bismarck_p2.htm

An interesting read on the final combat of Bismarck.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

mirth

#71
March 09, 2012, 09:14:16 AM
Great find, belisarius. Thanks for sharing the link!
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

besilarius

#72
April 15, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/battle-at-sea/query/Battleships+firing

It's a mixed bag, but Pathe newsreels was one of the great companies putting out newreel pictures for movie houses before television.
Here is one on warships during WWII.  If you like the looks, go to their homepage and search for  things like battleships or tanks.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

eyebiter

.
#73
April 15, 2012, 06:44:50 PM Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:22:27 PM by eyebiter
.

mirth

#74
April 16, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
Quote from: besilarius on April 15, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/battle-at-sea/query/Battleships+firing

It's a mixed bag, but Pathe newsreels was one of the great companies putting out newreel pictures for movie houses before television.
Here is one on warships during WWII.  If you like the looks, go to their homepage and search for  things like battleships or tanks.

Belisarius, do you have any idea if some of that footage is from the Channel Dash? Looked like it might be.

Anyway, another great link. Thanks!
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus
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