Greece Votes Communist

[Pete Dero]

Tonight is the 15th moment of truth.  But this time it's for real, again.

Feel a bit ashamed for european inability to decide anything about everything.
European democracy for the moment seems to be : if Germany (or France) says no it is no.

I know it is all politics but in the end real people are suffering.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Tonight is the 15th moment of truth.  But this time it's for real, again.

Feel a bit ashamed for european inability to decide anything about everything.
European democracy for the moment seems to be : if Germany (or France) says no it is no.

I know it is all politics but in the end real people are suffering.

There is more than politics. Greece has run up massive debt by importing everything. Now they want to walk from the debt as well as insist other countries keep giving them eveything.

First, they need to give priority to medicine imports.
Second they need to start giving back something real to the other countries.

Maybe the original intent was to modernize Greece to be an economic partner with the loans. Just importing everything is a crisis in the making. Every country needs to think about the significance of their balane of payments.

[Pete Dero]

I meant that every political faction in Europe thinks their solution is the right one and the only good one.

For the moment is doesn't look good : the greeks showed a few hours ago in Brussels without the promised proposal, angrying all others.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Its a tough nut. I cant think of an honest way out for the Greeks either. IMO the best is freeze interest without letting debt be written off. Even that I doubt can be done, their debt is too big with little value worthy of export being created.

Does anyone have an idea?

[JasonPratt]

A benevolent dictator comes to power putting everyone not working to work?

The heir to Constantinople would like to apply for that post!  >:D

[airboy]

Its a tough nut. I cant think of an honest way out for the Greeks either. IMO the best is freeze interest without letting debt be written off. Even that I doubt can be done, their debt is too big with little value worthy of export being created.

Does anyone have an idea?

Nothing can be done now.  The Greek government burned every bridge possible.  The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.

Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system

In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.

The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off.  But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole.  If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.

As it is, Greece is going down.

[Atilla60]

Nothing can be done now.  The Greek government burned every bridge possible.  The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.

Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system



The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off.  But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole.  If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.

As it is, Greece is going down.

Amen to that


One thing though and it has nothing to do with economics.

In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.

They could, but Greece already received .... is it 3 "rescue" packages from the ECB? While at the same time writing off billions of Euros of dept. Landing them on a debt of 323 billion Euros?

Meanwhile, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have seen hard times too, just like Greece.
But, unlike Greece, they implemented harsh and widely unpopular reforms and they are still not out of the woods.
So the question is -from a political point of view -  how do you justify further write offs to Greece, while other countries are struggling to make ends meet?
What kind of message is that?

[jejo68]

Nothing can be done now.  The Greek government burned every bridge possible.  The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.

Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system



The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off.  But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole.  If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.

As it is, Greece is going down.

Amen to that


One thing though and it has nothing to do with economics.

In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.

They could, but Greece already received .... is it 3 "rescue" packages from the ECB? While at the same time writing off billions of Euros of dept. Landing them on a debt of 323 billion Euros?

Meanwhile, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have seen hard times too, just like Greece.
But, unlike Greece, they implemented harsh and widely unpopular reforms and they are still not out of the woods.
So the question is -from a political point of view -  how do you justify further write offs to Greece, while other countries are struggling to make ends meet?
What kind of message is that?

You forgot to mention the baltic states you rascist swine 

[Atilla60]

Nothing can be done now.  The Greek government burned every bridge possible.  The voters of Northern Europe will vote out anyone who provides more money to Greece.

Prior to sticking a finger in the eye of the rest of Europe, Greece could have offered to:
Cut defense spending (aimed 100% at Turkey) to 5% of GDP instead of 10% of GDP
Increased sales taxes
Promised better enforcement of property taxes
Cut their generous pension system



The debt load cannot ever be reasonably paid off.  But the rest of the EU does not wish to continue pouring money down a rat hole.  If Greece had made some real cuts to spending and had a real tax increase (sales taxes are the only ones that ever get paid there), then maybe they could have negotiated a big cut in their debt.

As it is, Greece is going down.

Amen to that


One thing though and it has nothing to do with economics.

In return Greece could have asked for:
Writing off say 50% of their current debt.

They could, but Greece already received .... is it 3 "rescue" packages from the ECB? While at the same time writing off billions of Euros of dept. Landing them on a debt of 323 billion Euros?

Meanwhile, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have seen hard times too, just like Greece.
But, unlike Greece, they implemented harsh and widely unpopular reforms and they are still not out of the woods.
So the question is -from a political point of view -  how do you justify further write offs to Greece, while other countries are struggling to make ends meet?
What kind of message is that?

You forgot to mention the baltic states you rascist swine 

Hey! Don't you have a PBEM-turn to tend to?

I'm still waiting   

[Bison]

Well looks like the Greeks will get to continue to live on the backs of whatever remains of the European working and tax paying class.

Germany is at last bowing to pressure as a chorus of countries and key institutions demand debt relief for Greece, a shift that could break the five-month stalemate and avert a potentially disastrous rupture of monetary union at this Sunday's last-ditch summit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11730086/Greek-deal-in-sight-as-Germany-bows-to-huge-global-pressure-for-debt-relief.html

[Staggerwing]

That must have been a painful decision for Angela. Perhaps she is thinking ahead, wanting a secure Balkan front in case the Leopards have to roll East.

[mirth]

That must have been a painful decision for Angela. Perhaps she is thinking ahead, wanting a secure Balkan front in case the Leopard has to roll East.

ftfy

[Staggerwing]

That must have been a painful decision for Angela. Perhaps she is thinking ahead, wanting a secure Balkan front in case all the Polish Leopards have to roll East.

ftfy

fism

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

More like fear Russia asks to put a naval base in the islands in exchange for a bail out, cutting off Turkey from the rest of nato.

It still has to make it through a lot of politicians to pass. Those politicials have to weigh the monetary fallout vs the humanitarian fallout. If they start counting bodies from lack of medicine, that will overpower financial considerations. There are ways of dealing with that other that more money.

[Boggit]

Greece should never have been encouraged into the Eurozone. Staying in has more to do with cozying up to the political agenda of the Brussels bureaucrats, who want a truly federal Europe, and a common currency is part of that. Greece should go back to the Drachma, but remain within the EU if it wishes.

If the EU wants to stop wasting tax credits on Greece as a persistent loss, they need to either amortise the debt, or keep the paper debt but freeze interest payments, then make a one-off investment grant to kickstart the Greek economy (overseen by the ECB and IMF to avoid Greek corruption - although EU Institutional corruption is endemic, so I wonder how effective that would be?). I think that has to be the last chance saloon for Greece.

It's a bitter pill for euro tax payers, but probably the most realistic plan to give them a chance to stand on their own feet in the foreseeable future. As things presently stand Greece is a continuing haemorrhage of euro tax credits and is unsustainable in the long term. If they don't get a bailout or a recovery plan they will just go bankrupt, and create a whole new can of worms for the EU.