CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread

[jomni]

Well I was thinking the helos would be intelligent enough to know friend or foe.  These aren't dumb bombs but guns. rockets. It looks like they are deliberately attacking my guys within the attack area. Never again. [emoji14]

[MikeGER]

IIRC in 2008! 9 British soldier from 2nd Para got wounded in Stan by 30mm fire from own choppers
...found it:

Nine British paratroopers have been wounded in a 'friendly fire' incident in Afghanistan as they came under fire from a British helicopter gunship.

The soldiers from the 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment were locked in a ferocious close-quarter combat with Taliban fighters and called in air support to save their patrol from being overrun.

The Apache helicopter from the Army Air Corps successfully attacked one enemy position with its powerful 30mm cannon, but in the confusion of battle then turned its fire on a British position close by, mistaking the Paras for the enemy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1034126/Nine-Paras-shot-British-gunship-mistaken-Taliban-friendly-disaster.html#ixzz3QfTvulCK [/size]

Jomni where your troops inside the 'blue circle' ?

[Yskonyn]

You have to take care to keep your troops away from any hot zone of your helo's. This is pretty realistic IMO.
There are hardly any Rambo 3 scenes in real life where helo's circle a given area full of friendlies and hostiles and start firing away willy nilly. :)
The engagement zone can be a bit rough, especially when the air controller or spotter doesn't have a clear view over the whole area, just like with artillery.

I am going to continue my campaign this afternoon. I'll post some screens later.

[jomni]

Nice. No more recreating action movies for me (inside blue circle)  Lol!

[Zonso]

Downloaded on the weekend, no issues, and had a chance to poke around and play a couple small battles. Modern is not my favourite but this is freak'in awesome! The pace is so much quicker and things go boom once seen. Interestingly, the move to WWII from CMSF required a mental shift in how I accepted casualties, now I will need to adjust again especially since this environment seems so much more deadly. Whole squads even with body armor can be wiped out with one burst. I am really sensitive to the Russian air burst capabilities!   :o

It is a cliche, but if you use RL tactics in CM you will be successful, if not then you will be punished. This game more than any other has always emphasized that. Clear thinking, planning and patience are what's required. Recon and cautious advances are generally the best practice though not always. Sit still too long in a scenario like August Morning and you will not have any toys to play with.  :)

I am an admitted fanboy of CM from the very start, but this game is the best yet imo. Kudos to BFC and all involved in putting out a product of this caliber.

[Jarhead0331]

The biggest issue I have is reading the land. I find it difficult to get down to the ground and check for elevation and LOS. I wish there was a feature that would clearly show you both LOS and level of concealment from any given position on the map.

[JudgeDredd]

Definitely.

[Zonso]

The biggest issue I have is reading the land. I find it difficult to get down to the ground and check for elevation and LOS. I wish there was a feature that would clearly show you both LOS and level of concealment from any given position on the map.

Well I think the 3D terrain does a good job giving you the lay of the land graphically, and while cumbersome, the LOS can be checked from any point, ie unit or waypoint, with a target command. Something to keep in mind is there are 3 different heights, as I recall, to check from on the Z axis, so a standing soldier will see more than a kneeling soldier who will see more than a prone one.

It just may come down to familiarity with the engine. Things I still get burned on occasionally is the 'transparency' at times of trees or vegetation. Because it is modelling at a higher fidelity there is no magic number like in CMx1 where you knew 15m into woods you couldn't be seen for example.

I think I have linked this before but here is Bil Hardenbergers tactical primer website http://battledrill.blogspot.ca/2013/08/combat-mission-tactical-problems-cmtp.html Some light reading.  :)

[JudgeDredd]

He didn't say you couldn't do it - just that an easier option would be cool. 

[Jarhead0331]

He didn't say you couldn't do it - just that an easier option would be cool. 

Exactly. Thank you.

Some games have this feature, where you can pick any spot on the map and instantly see graphically what a unit in that spot can see, or from where a unit in that spot could be seen.

[RyanE]

One of the problems discovered with LOS in CMSF, and continued on into CMBN, was that stands of trees are not drawn consistently.  If a stand has three trees at points X, Y, and Z, when you reload the game or a save, those trees might not be in the same spot.  They can move randomly within the 8m square.  I don't think it was ever fixed.  It makes it almost impossible to set up some ambushes with tight LOS in saves or PBEM.

The ultimate problem is that BFC keeps saying WYSIWYG...except issues A, B, C, D, etc.  They never document where the big limitations are in any type of FAQ.  So the same issues keep having to be addressed with new players.

[MikeGER]

Well I think the 3D terrain does a good job giving you the lay of the land graphically, and while cumbersome, the LOS can be checked from any point, ie unit or waypoint, with a target command. Something to keep in mind is there are 3 different heights, as I recall, to check from on the Z axis, so a standing soldier will see more than a kneeling soldier

i would like to add, when you place yourself virtually in the landscape and tilt, pan,turn  the cam  and check the vista...you can also zoom in 20x resolution
.i saw this in ChrisND vids, when he was checking how a TOW2 shooter traced a line to a target far far away .  And in some other vids when he adjusted waypoint ending until there was a perfect LOS that way

I think its part of the realism of the tactical sim, you could do what a soldier could do,  'sneak' to the spot and take a look through your binos (while in reallife even not all spots on the map area healthy to wander in of course)

when it comes to vehicles IIRC the correct position of the MK1 eyeball behind  the optics and the entry point of the optics is modeled (not just 3 heights as for soldiers in the field)

[Zonso]

He didn't say you couldn't do it - just that an easier option would be cool. 

Exactly. Thank you.

Some games have this feature, where you can pick any spot on the map and instantly see graphically what a unit in that spot can see, or from where a unit in that spot could be seen.

Ah I see, I misunderstood. I get where you are coming from and there have been more than a few heated debates on just such a feature from 'it is gamey to have such perfect knowledge' to 'the game is inherently gamey, this just reduces the workload' etc. No doubt if such a tool existed I would use it. :) The LOS tool is cumbersome and imperfect for the reasons stated above.

Working with what is, an excellent tool is to setup a game in hotseat to learn the intricacies and limitations of the engine in different terrain, with different movement orders etc. It will likely be an eye opener if you are new to the game, and is probable necessary information to learn when playing other people.

[Zonso]

i would like to add, when you place yourself virtually in the landscape and tilt, pan,turn  the cam  and check the vista...you can also zoom in 20x resolution
.i saw this in ChrisND vids, when he was checking how a TOW2 shooter traced a line to a target far far away .  And in some other vids when he adjusted waypoint ending until there was a perfect LOS that way

I think its part of the realism of the tactical sim, you could do what a soldier could do,  'sneak' to the spot and take a look through your binos (while in reallife even not all spots on the map area healthy to wander in of course)

when it comes to vehicles IIRC the correct position of the MK1 eyeball behind  the optics and the entry point of the optics is modeled (not just 3 heights as for soldiers in the field)

Yes the camera is pretty flexible. However something to keep in mind, and this is getting more and more technical, I recall the lowest camera setting only goes to 2m above ground level which is still higher than a standing soldier, so what you see isn't exactly what a unit may be seeing.

[ChrisB]

Holy Cow this game is fun! So far I cannot get enough.

I would LOVE to play a real person sometime soon.