Dominions 4

[Boggit]

Actually, even though I've uninstalled the GG copy, I still have my existing game showing on Steam! Impressive! I also copied over the various guides/manuals in the docs folder over to the Steamapps/common/dominions4 folder for access. Steam doesn't - at first sight - have the same guides, so if anyone else is migrating to Steam don't forget to copy them over before you remove the non-Steam version.

Thanks Tpek. Great advice. :)

[Huw the Poo]

Hmmm.....perhaps there might be interest in a MP game at some point...?

[Yskonyn]

If you guys will do one, think of me. I'd love to join. I know how to host on Llamaserver for easy admin of a game, done it before. 

[Nefaro]

The only downside is restarting my Machaka campaign. Anyone else play them?

The ones with the huge spiders?  Martok would probably enjoy it.

[Swatter]

I was thinking of getting it, but am put off by an articulate steam review that really pans it. The reviewer says the game revolves around combat, but combat in not really controlled by the player. The reviewer also said the strategic game was rather thin.

Some of you seem to really like it. How would you all address those concerns?

[Bison]

There is no question that the game is combat focused.  You do and don't have control.  You can setup the tactical layout of your army and create a predetermined list of spells and actions your units will take but in the end the AI fights the battles.  It sounds boring but there is an incredible depth to the game that I think the reviewer isn't accounting for in terms of spell, item, unit, building development.  There is a much broader aspect of the game in how you go about dominating the map.  In single player there is NO diplomacy.  In MP the diplomacy is only as good as the words and deeds of the players who create their own pacts. 

[W8taminute]

When I first played Dominions it was in the single player campaign game.  I enjoyed creating armies, issuing them orders, and watching them fight.  The economic model is pretty thin but still very important to the game.  By being thin I mean if you're expecting a builder type game with some war sprinkled in forget it.  This game is indeed mainly about war, magic spells, creatures, and fighting. 

Domions is like a very complex version of chess.  Each piece has unique abilities.  Add magic to the list.  There are hundreds of spells to learn a use for.  There are tons of items and weapons you can create for your hero characters but you need to understand what they counter and what they are weak against.  Battle is not all sword hitting swords.  It's the magic spells you need to learn to make your army devastating.  You only need to really memorize and learn a few spells to make the single player campaign enjoyable. 

It's when you try playing this game against humans in multiplayer that really left a bad taste in my mouth.  There are players out there that literally went to Dominions University and got their P.H.D. in the game.  They're the ones who know how to take a single hero, buff him with the right armour and weapons, and have him cast just the right type of magic and use him to destroy a 500 man army in two seconds flat that you spent tons of gold on to create not to mention many turns. 

If you intend to play just the single player experience and enjoy the game of chess you'll like this game.  In that case buy the game only if it is 10 dollars or less. 

If you intend to play multiplayer games with other humans make sure you are the type of person who can figure out extremely complex puzzles in a very short time.  If you can't do that and you really have your heart set on multiplayer don't get this game. 

[jomni]

I couldn't get into this game. Maybe have to try again.

[Huw the Poo]

I'm going to sound like a blinkered fanboy here but...

It's ridiculous to call the strategy part thin, and I wonder why the reviewer did.  Take a look at some screenshots and see the variety of options available to you as you play the game.  Perhaps he said it was thin because...well, take construction for example.  You can only build forts, temples and labs, but where and when you build each of these is crucial.  If you place a fort in a territory you will gain a defensive bonus and the fort will generate a load of resources based on the land in which it's situated...but build it too close to another fort and it will suck resources from the other.  Also, it takes several turns of precious time to build, not to mention a pile of gold, and with the fort expansion options available you might be adding to it for a long time.  You don't just spam these things.

Anyone merely glancing at the game will think "oh, you just build armies and send them out, and you can't even control combat".  At a very, very low level that is all you're doing, but there is an absolute ton of stuff that goes on top of that.  Everything matters.  Your army composition: are they sacred units, how much supply do they consume, how many are wounded or have afflictions, how big are the troops, how's their morale - will they run in fear from the horrors the enemy is fielding, do you have spearmen at the front to fend off the initial cavalry charge, how's their resistance to the lightning that air mages will throw at them, etc.  So much is modelled: how good is their armour - can it resist piercing damage or blunt damage, how long are their weapons, if they fire arrows or hurl rocks do they have much ammunition, how fast do they move, etc.

I'm running out of time before work but I could talk for ages.  Dominions 4 has an enormous array of data points which are all taken into consideration all the time, and you will quickly find that you can spend hours thinking about what to do just for a single turn, such are the options available to you.  Every decision matters, as does every unit, every building, every territory, every spell you script a mage to cast in battle, every global enchantment the players place on the map, every magical gem you find, every item you forge.  It's one of the deepest and most complex games I've ever played.  My advice would be to read an AAR or two to get an idea of how much goes into each and every game of Dom4 that's played.

If I remember to come back to this after work I will address the multiplayer concerns too.

[Boggit]

I only ever play Single Player, but certainly would echo Huw's comments about the depth and thoughtfulness that needs to go into the game. I like it at lot, even if it isn't hands on at the point of battle - everything is about the planning before the battle.

[airboy]

Dominions 3 & 4 are the most complicated games I have ever seen.  The combination of different nation types, god designs, the massive number of spells (which require research), and magic items give the game almost unending variety.

You give orders to your troops, mages and set up the formations before every battle if you wish.  The combat system is like most ancient battle simulations - you don't have complete command and control and morale is extraordinarily important.  Troops almost always rout before there is a showdown to the death.  You do have to get your head around the fact that you don't have turn by turn tactical control.  But the troop formations, army composition, spell choices, and unit placement are all vital to winning battles.

Dominions is all about choices.  You have so many choices that it can become overwhelming.  You must have a clear strategy - or you must have a flexible strategy based on a finding spell powering gems and picking magic research opportunistically.

The comment about multiplayer is dead on.  The game is so complicated that people who are both bright and study the game to death have a massive advantage over less knowledgeable players.  The game is not easily mastered, and your strategy (both battle, spell research, and god design) can all be optimized against specific foes and troop compositions.  The game vs. the AI and the game vs. human opponents play out so differently in reality that it is amazing.

Simple example.  Some of the nations depend about 100% on fire magic.  There is a low level spell that makes it rain.  If you know about the rain spell, think through the implications, then you can make it start raining on the first turn of battle and then use other magical effects (like cold or poison) and just crush the "flame on and fireball away" opponent.  Some of the spell combos are so complicated to pull off you need a how to manual (don't get me started about commune, enslaved mages, and ramping up to cast high level combat spells). 

I like complex 4x games.  Dominions 3 & 4 are the best 4x with complex magic systems, combat types, and game choices out there.  But this is a game that requires a lot of study to get up the learning curve.  The graphics are primitive.  The game is far, far deeper than it looks on first review.  And the game is not for everyone.  I've played Dominions 3 as much as I've ever played anything - and it has never lost interest for me.  Of all of the nations against the AI, I probably only have a good understanding of Tien C'hi; Ermor (the undead hordes one), and the biggest fire using nation (Agartha I think).  The other 30 or so nations x 3 eras - I don't understand how to make them win consistently against the AI - much less human opponents.

[Dread Rlyeh]

While I have Dominions IV, I haven't played a ton of it.  A played quite a bit of 3, and it really is an amazing game.  However, the AI simply couldn't keep up with variety of strategies available to the player and I had to hamstring myself with tons of house rules.

Impossible was about that, but simply due to early game unit spam.  On lesser difficultly levels the AI couldn't really compete - in general of course, starting location, who you are up against, etc is a huge factor.  Simple things like flying troops attacking the rear could easily win battles - the AI had some units guarding the casters/leaders in the rear, but not enough and of low quality.  Even like 10 heavy plate guards would make this strat much less effective.   

Thugs or whatever the community was calling tough hero units with great EQ would simply stomp entire armies.  For example, Father Illearth + some armor piercing dagger w/ 20+ ac (he might have been ethereal too, can't remember), and stamina regeneration, simply unstoppable.   Granted he is pretty late game, but with some item forging you can come up with something similar much earlier. 

Early game I was playing Man and had my nature spellscasters spamming heal, regeneration, and possibly the group barkskin spell (something that increased AC) and my armies had a cake walk.   Barkskin makes you vulnerable to fire, but the AI (of multiple nations) didn't counter with that.  Even if it did you could just counter with the battlefield rain spell or whatever, as mentioned above.

I'm hoping Dominions 4 has improved a bit upon this - I do know they have made an even higher difficultly level.  Supposedly the old impossible is now the penultimate and the new impossible probably requires hourly sanity checks. 

[Yskonyn]

With all due respect, but you make that reviewer sound like he or she didn't spend much time with the game, or he or she just doesn't understand it.

I agree with Huw's points. The game actually has a crapton of things you need to take into consideration!
The fact that once battle kicks off its pretty much a hands off approach seems to be mistaken for shallowness, as are the relatively modest economy things on the map.
But trust us, the game is nothing short of grand on the strategic layer!
Its All about when to do what and on what strategy to focus, depending on your knowledge of the other nations.

To add to the details already mentioned:
-unit age is tracked
-hero's have an inventory
-you can craft items
-on top of the nation economy there is a gem economy used for magic on the one hand and Crafting on the other
-afflictions from battle are tracked and might result in permanent disabilities or diseases.

I fully agree with the statement that Dominions is the most detailed and complex strategy game I have ever played.

[airboy]

There are a couple of additional changes in Dominions 4 compared to Dominions 3 that have a big impact on gameplay.

1] Remote searches for magic gem producing sites have limited range.  In D3 you could search anywhere in the game world via spells for magic gem sites.  In D4 the limited range of searches mean locating magic sites via spells is a much slower process.

2] Building temples to increase Dominion is much, much slower.  In D3 any temple you built could recruit a L1 Priest who could build Temples.  In D4 very few temples can spawn a priest.  This makes building temples and generating a big dominion a slower process.

As a result of these two seemingly minor changes, nations identify magic sites a lot slower.  This in turn makes recruiting troops & leaders via summoning much slower which changes your combat strategy.  It is also slower to generate enough gems to build magic items and empower your mages.  It is also slower to get a dominion kill strategy via building Temples.  Money also seems to be a little tighter, which also makes building temples slower.

[mikeck]

Question: can I upgrade regular units with better armor or weapons somehow? I know I can craft for my hero but anyway to improve the line units other than magic?