WiTE Update SHAMES All Other Updates!

[RyanE]

I knew it wasn't for me when I saw this as one of the changes...

" Panther G: front armor changed from 124 to 123"

How can any game that covers the entire eastern front hope to get all the variables working properly when it is concerned about a 1mm difference in a tanks's armor?  Holy Crap!

[jomni]

I knew it wasn't for me when I saw this as one of the changes...

" Panther G: front armor changed from 124 to 123"

How can any game that covers the entire eastern front hope to get all the variables working properly when it is concerned about a 1mm difference in a tanks's armor?  Holy Crap!

Thanks to those nit pickers.

[Cyrano]

I gave the lads at 3MA a bit of a hiding elsewhere re: their coverage of SB:WWI, so, in the interest of fairness if nothing else, I figured I'd post their discussion from a couple years ago about WitE.

http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2011/01/13/three-moves-ahead-episode-99-war-in-the-east/

It's well worth a listen.  Not only does it feature a guest spot from Scott Jennings (one of the best bloggers to ever serve both the MMORPG and, tangentially, wargame community), but Bruce's questions to Joel Billings are more pointed than I've come to expect from gaming journalism.  They go straight to the heart of RyanE's comments and are a good discussion generally about what this level of detail does and does not bring to a game.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[RyanE]

The main problem I have with detail at this level for a strategic game is that you can't account for every variable.  So you have armor down to 1mm.  What variability in quality of fuel.  What about spoiled meat in the supply chain?  What about the guy at the factory having a headache and not torquing a bolt correctly?  This is why abstraction is important.  Look how long they have been adjusting and tweaking this game.

To me, its just wargaming porn that makes players feel all warm, but either provides unrealistic results or is constantly being worked on with no end in sight.

[Cyrano]

Well, not to spoil the plot overmuch, but Bruce argues almost exactly that.  Making matters worse, it become ever more difficult to suss out how to affect anything in light of the nigh-endless array of minutiae.  It's almost a Catch-22, either your data does affect outcomes in which case the player is doomed to never be able to master it all and really play the game "as intended" or it doesn't affect outcomes in which case why did we bother?

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[Skoop]

Personally, the only reason I could bring myself to play through a campaign of wite, was to redo Barbarossa and go straight for Moscow from the opening shots.  Once I did that, no point playing it anymore, there wasn't enough what if situations to play out.  I want to change history, not be stuck doing what was already done.

I may revisit the series years from now when wite and witw are combined into one game with control of production.  That might pose the possibility of changing history at the strategic level.  I certainly hope that they design a friendly AI that you can put in charge of theaters.  A game at this size would be an unplayable monster.

On a side note, since tank production is such an issue for the axis, it would be cool if you could try a strategy that targets capturing the soviet tank factories with aim at equipping panzer divs with t34s.

[Blucher]

Do you guys feel that the Tiller Panzer Campaigns series is much better for wargaming the Eastern Front then WITE?

[sandman2575]

" Panther G: front armor changed from 124 to 123"

How can any game that covers the entire eastern front hope to get all the variables working properly when it is concerned about a 1mm difference in a tanks's armor?  Holy Crap!

Strongly agree. A game of grand-operational strategy that niggles over differences in armor thickness down to the millimeter is a game that has lost all sense of proportion.

I have tried on numerous occasions since 2010 to make a serious go of WitE and have given up every time. For me, WitE is Exhibit A when it comes to "How Poor UI Design Can Ruin a Deep and Potentially Rewarding Game."  Here is a game that models the firearms of individual soldiers, but can't be bothered to present crucially important information clearly. Combat resolution is case in point. What good is it to model all this minutiae when the *outcomes* that depend on all this stuff are presented in such a slap-dash way? Text cut off, text squeezed into spaces clearly too small for it, typographical symbols whose meaning is far from clear (why is this value in brackets? why is there an asterisk here? what do these arrows mean?)...  Bah.

I'm just biding my time until Decisive Campaigns 3: Barbarossa comes out.

[JasonPratt]

...um, I feel kind of ignorant here, but wasn't DC: Case Blau Barbarossa?  ???

[RyanE]

The DC games seem to have a better regard for balancing scale and special outcomes.

[mirth]

...um, I feel kind of ignorant here, but wasn't DC: Case Blau Barbarossa?  ???

Covers the '42 Summer Offensive and subsequent events, which is what Blau entailed historically.

[sandman2575]

Covers the '42 Summer Offensive and subsequent events, which is what Blau entailed historically.

This. DC3 is in the works, will cover the war beginning in June '41 and on a larger scale than DC1 and DC2 (chits will be divisional level, not regimental -- I'm not thrilled by that but understand why the decision was taken).  I'm a little worried about where the development stands -- still haven't seen anything about a possible release date --
http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=867

The DC games model war with considerably less historical fidelity than WitE, in terms of OOB etc., but as a game experience, I'd take the DC games over WitE any day of the week. Far superior in my view.

[Cyrano]

@Blucher:  It's kind of apples and oranges.  The scale of the PzC series is narrower and focuses on individual campaigns.  That said, it's still my preferred way of doing WWII gaming at anything other than the tactical level where CMx2 is my thing...

As others have suggested elsewhere hereabouts, I far prefer DC to WitE.  My Case Blau fight with Doug was an awesome experience...

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[jomni]

The DC games seem to have a better regard for balancing scale and special outcomes.

At the expense of historical accuracy.

[Rayfer]

Do you guys feel that the Tiller Panzer Campaigns series is much better for wargaming the Eastern Front then WITE?

Aren't they two totally different levels of scale? I have a hard time comparing the two. Others may see it differently.