Hatred

[Swatter]

After having this debate years ago at Gamasutra (was the only somewhat conservative voice in the debate) I have learned a few things. Sane people are not going to use a game as an excuse to kill people. On the other hand, I am left to wonder if games could be a form of incitement for borderline sane people. I don't think anyone knows the answer to that. For that reason, still to this day, I would not participate in the development of a game or mod that depicts violence against human beings for merely shock value.

For the people who think an ultra-realistic Sandy Hook simulator is A-OK, just think about it in the hands of a borderline sane child in a school where he/she is constantly ridiculed for being different. Just think if that child has access to firearms. Do we want games out there that could possibly be pushing the wrong people over the edge? Not that I am saying a game would be a decisive factor in a situation like that, but I certainly wouldn't want a person like that playing a murder simulator.

I am all for creative freedom, but like anything else in life people must exercise restraint.

[Jarhead0331]

For the people who think an ultra-realistic Sandy Hook simulator is A-OK, just think about it in the hands of a borderline sane child in a school where he/she is constantly ridiculed for being different. Just think if that child has access to firearms. Do we want games out there that could possibly be pushing the wrong people over the edge? Not that I am saying a game would be a decisive factor in a situation like that, but I certainly wouldn't want a person like that playing a murder simulator.

I am all for creative freedom, but like anything else in life people must exercise restraint.

This is where sound parenting comes into play. Adults have a responsibility to regulate what their children watch and play. Just like movies come with a rating system, games do too. I don't think anyone would argue that a game like Hatred should be played by a 10 year old. These games are for mature adults, just as 'R' rated movies are for people over the age of 18. You can't even view the Hatred store page unless you enter your birth date and acknowledge that you are an adult over 18 years of age.

I've seen parents buying GTA for their adolescent children, and I find it shocking. Games like this should not be played by young children. They require a level of understanding and maturity that most children do not yet possess. This, however, is a failure of parenting that cannot be blamed on the producer or developer of the content. Parents have a responsibility to be educated about what kind of material they hand over to their own children.

So, if I'm an adult, if I'm mature, if I'm a psychologically balanced, law-abiding individual, what is wrong with playing a game like Hatred? As long as one is able to distinguish reality from fantasy, what is the harm? The argument that this material should be prohibited because some people are incapable of making this distinction is unacceptable to me. Just as some people are not responsible enough to drive an automobile, you wouldn't ban autos for everyone...

[Nefaro]

I have my own taboo's and set of values. I don't need a body of people telling me what they think my taboo's should be.

Agreed.


O0

[JudgeDredd]

...
So, if I'm an adult, if I'm mature, if I'm a psychologically balanced, law-abiding individual, what is wrong with playing a game like Hatred? As long as one is able to distinguish reality from fantasy, what is the harm?
...

I guess the harm is not everyone isa mature, psychologically sound, law-abiding adult.

I'm with you - I'm not for a game being banned. A banned game (nae - anything banned) gets legendary status and doesn't actually stop it getting to those who want it anyway.

So I'm with you - but I was just pointing out that everyone is different. That same statement actually goes to those who think it something should be banned...not everyone is the same

[MikeGER]

You will be judged as a person based upon your actions and accomplishments in the real world, not in a game.

well that is not 100% correct. you are judged at least by the community build around that very game or (participants in a MP match) by our actions in the game ...achieving a total victory in a complex wargame, mastering a plane in a flight sim, endurance finishing a RPG, teamplay in a shooter (versus spankilling, camping, etc) ...it may tell something about the persons character too

concerning movies and game
you are also judged by the choice of movies and games and especially the reaction/opinion to 'the content' you got exposed there. 
so Hatered is 'bad taste' in my eyes


if a killing-spree game really lower the threshold to violence in real life situation depends IMHO on the deepness of immersion. (the isometric game play i have seen so far from Haterad on YT is not immersiv for me, are there cut-scenes of finishing moves with overther shoulder look or POV cam?)

a personal example:  if i play chess i never feel sorry for a peasant lost (maybe i am angry about myself for a bad decision) but i somehew feel sorry for the pixeltruppe- crew bailing out of my Zug of 4 Panthers when i stupidly had them ordered in the open and they got wasted in 30sec WEGO by some Russian assets in CM:RT   

level of immersion is key, there might be (simple) people out there were a certain level of immersion is able to trigger to toughen that person against the exposure to blood, gore, mayhem they inflict.
The military is trying this, but you need a Oculus Rift, plus full movement tracking, ...and maybe some future 'smell-evaporator' too...       
   

[BanzaiCat]

Just wait for the media shite-storm to show up about this game, once the next mass shooting occurs. If there's something the news loves more than a good natural disaster, it's that.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I dont like the idea of banning a game. I dont like the idea of creeping cultural decrepitude either. When i think of America at it's finest I think of the new colonies. When I think of the movie Colors (bloods vs crips gangland warfare) I think the area ( the hoods) have become a cultural wasteland.

Movies have always had influence over culture. They become part of collective memory. I would bet games have a much stronger effect due to the interactivity. I do not think, for the vast majority, a game would create a killer. I do think it shapes how people think, what they think is normal culture.

[Huw the Poo]

I would bet games have a much stronger effect due to the interactivity.

That has never been proved...and people have really tried to prove it, too.

I'm absolutely in agreement with Jarhead on this.  We cannot start banning art - and games are art, I will argue that until the heat death of the universe - because some find it offensive.  That is something that some of history's most tyrannical and despicable governments did.  If games, especially games such as Hatred, were clearly shown to be harmful in some way then of course I'd start to entertain other ideas...but that simply hasn't happened, ever, and games have been under intense scrutiny for a long time.

I think maybe people that enjoy playing an evil part in a game wish to do it in real life.

I 100% disagree with you on this.  Can you cite anything at all, or is it just a gut feeling?  I generally play the good guy, but if the story is strong enough I'll be quite happy to play the bad guy.  That Star Wars MMO is a good example of this...everyone I know who has played it is in agreement that by far the best story is the one you play when you are a particular Sith class, so that's the one I picked when I had a go at the game.

As an aside, I think stuff like reality TV shows, contemporary pop music, Disney films etc are far more detrimental to our collective consciousness than games like these.  They are the biggest causes of "creeping cultural decrepitude" (excellent phrase!) we face, dulling the senses of all and sundry to ensure nobody ever complains about anything and not getting involved in politics.  Let me kill a few people in a game to let off steam after I've finished writing another angry letter to my local representative, trying to make the world a better place!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Check this out.

Dawg Fight

In a crime-plagued neighborhood near Miami, brutal, bare-knuckled backyard fights give young men a chance to earn money -- and self-respect.

http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/80045932?trkid=13462047

Keep in mind this is a real neighborhood, not a movie set. So what happens when good for nothing kids see something like this? They probably want to copy it, imagining they will have a sense of power by being 'bad ass'. That is really why many young men do all kinds of stupid shit right? It is their chance to pound their chest like big gorilla.

Walking back from the tangent, the reason it is probably difficult to pin down the effect of negative media on individuals is the individuals know it is socially unacceptable to be seen enjoying evil shit. They know the giant foot of society already wants to kick their ass. They try to hide their fucked up nature. The statistical summary result is all around to be seen in inner cities all over. Is it a place you want to bring your family? Hell no.

Nothing good will come of a game like Hatred.

[JudgeDredd]

I think maybe people that enjoy playing an evil part in a game wish to do it in real life.

Sorry Mr B but I think not only is that a ridiculous thing to assume, but a dangerous one too.

The problem with the statement is that you have said it in an all encompassing context and that's not going to be the case. You are forgetting the very important (and real) point which is the definite line between real and fiction.

I can quite easily play a game where I pull an innocent man out his car and then jump in his car and drive off - perhaps even giving him a slap - ala GTA. However, I would most definitely NOT do that in real life and I most certainly do not think it's an acceptable thing to do. Nor do I even wish (deep down) to do it.

It's a game. There's a huge difference and it's the lack of defining game from reality where the problem lies. I could play GTAV until I was 80 and I still wouldn't want to pull someone from their car and steal it.

These problems are not caused by games or films or any other media. They are already manifesting themselves in individuals imo.

Desensitisation? That's a different matter. Even then, though, I think individuals have the wherewithal to understand the difference between real life and fiction.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I think maybe people that enjoy playing an evil part in a game wish to do it in real life.

Sorry Mr B but I think not only is that a ridiculous thing to assume, but a dangerous one too.

The problem with the statement is that you have said it in an all encompassing context and that's not going to be the case. You are forgetting the very important (and real) point which is the definite line between real and fiction.

I can quite easily play a game where I pull an innocent man out his car and then jump in his car and drive off - perhaps even giving him a slap - ala GTA. However, I would most definitely NOT do that in real life and I most certainly do not think it's an acceptable thing to do. Nor do I even wish (deep down) to do it.

It's a game. There's a huge difference and it's the lack of defining game from reality where the problem lies. I could play GTAV until I was 80 and I still wouldn't want to pull someone from their car and steal it.

These problems are not caused by games or films or any other media. They are already manifesting themselves in individuals imo.

Desensitisation? That's a different matter. Even then, though, I think individuals have the wherewithal to understand the difference between real life and fiction.

I do not assume it. Like I said, most people have executive frontal cortex function that controls what they do.

It is not a math function of input results in output. It is a shift of understanding of how the world works. For most people a few seconds of 2 idiots 1 cup, has them scrambling to turn it off. Why? you don't want to believe people operate like that. But once you have seen or played all kinds of screwed up shit, it opens up as a possible reality. It is probably not the reality you pick. It is still out there. How did US politics become so negatively polarized? Actors in it know that by presenting a greater extreme to the public, their perception of reality shifts. You cant pretend that is not real because there is no study to cite, just like you cant pretend inner cities are not shit holes. Glorifying gangsta is a fast path to has been nation.

[MengJiao]

I don't have any clear reason for the distinctions involved. But I know I would never play this game, even for curiosity.

  I agree.  I found killing mountains of Orcs distasteful in Shadow of Mordor.  After a week of that, I wanted to play an Orc.  Similarly (to extend my gripes about simulations being focused on racking up scores) if I had to play a game where Joe Average slaughters mountains of people, I would prefer to kill the Average mass killer -- I mean just for some variety for Chrissakes.  I don't get the direction that lots of games take in just piling on more and more similar events.  It's not slaughter per se that I find tedious -- I definitely enjoyed it in FarCry 3 -- its more the implied interest in amassing similar events from a more or less fixed point of view.

[Father Ted]

As long as what goes on in our virtual worlds stays in our virtual worlds, we can lob off as many heads, and blow up as many babies as we like. There is no judgement. There is no law. There doesn't have to be a moral code. Just enjoy yourself. Do what you cannot do in the real world. That is what some games are all about. The experience you CAN have, without hurting anyone.

But why do those things, even in a virtual world?  Why is it fun?  Why are some games all about this stuff?

[Tuna]

Because there is a market/audience for it.

[Huw the Poo]

But why do those things, even in a virtual world?  Why is it fun?  Why are some games all about this stuff?

A lot of games are exactly the same, even if you're usually the "hero" dispatching "bad" guys.  I'm not about to tell people what they should or shouldn't enjoy.  You can ask the same about pretty much any genre.  Why is it fun to simulate war, as everyone on this forum loves to do?  Why is it fun to manage a football team, which is surely more like a real-life job than a game?  It's all subjective, innit.