The Sun against the Eagle - WitP AE AAR - UCG v KyzBP

[undercovergeek]

no worries

im glad youre getting pleasure from my pain!

[Con]

Here is some Intel though.  The allies are planning a massive experimental weapon that can flatten cities.  Should be operational in 1945 or so....plan accordingly! ;)

[undercovergeek]

I'll gather my best troops and planes in Hiroshima - we should be safe there  :(

[JasonPratt]

There or Nagasaki. Those two cities have the highest Christian populations in the Home Islands, by far.

(Historically, one of the bombs detonated directly above the largest or oldest church in the city. But on the other hand, the US firebombed every other city first; it's entirely possible they were trying to spare Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)


I got the impression Jomni only accidentally crossposted a (very small) comment meant for here, in regard to the Hexodoom -- it's easy to habitually post there.

The Americans are definitely expecting a retaliation to retake the Kuriles, but only as a general inference from being there at all (and raiding your coastline). No one has said anything there about definite action.

No one has said anything about the troops you were planning to send to Ceylon either -- if I'm recalling that detail rightly? If so, how badly does your surprise loss here affect that? I've been as interested in your thrust toward Ceylon as in Kyz's project. And restraining myself from seeming TOO interested on the other thread, just in case that tips him to be more watchful!

[undercovergeek]

the drive by at Ceylon was to see what CAP was operating there for when the attack is under way - the CAP and the numbers involved were poor, it was an unknown mechanic that let the Swordfish through - there really should have been no excuse for that - and im happy we can get in, im thinking after this disaster that its also the last thing KyzBP will be expecting

however,

the east coast of Oz is almost done, i can only go as far as Brisbane and im one town out from that target, but the entire west coast is open to attack, including Perth - so theres two plans, either go from Manilla to Ceylon and then to Perth, which seems to be a natural progression, or just straight for Perth.

The guys from Manilla are also needed for the Kuriles and a few garrison duties

And the steamroller in China is headed for Calcutta

[BanzaiCat]

What are the victory conditions, 'geek? Is there an auto-win for you if you occupy X number of cities?

[undercovergeek]

im unsure, at the minute i have a minor victory according to the score sheet, manilla is soon to fall and thats a big points swing towards me - but im not playing for an auto victory, even then you get the chance to carry on, and ill ask KyzBP if he wants to but i honestly dont think ill trigger it - the big points at the moment are Ceylon, Perth, Noumea and some serious points cities in north China that im not heading towards

[JasonPratt]

For what it's worth, looking back over the other thread, I think Kyz was already looking into the question of how to activate more armies to help Australia (for reasons that may and/or may not be obvious. ;) )

Jomni had looked up information on reinforcement activation points for Japan, for our discussion here, so he just dropped a quick note about where he had found that information since Kyz was looking for it, too.

The accident came in that he mentioned, as a matter of comparison (or maybe because he was conveniently reposting to help each side with an information link) where the activation points were in north Japan. Kyz hadn't thought to think of that: he had chosen those islands for other reasons.

But Kyz might have easily been going to see that information anyway in the wiki entry Jomni posted a link to.

[Con]

I understand the game awards points for capturing Australian territory/cities but historically why would the Japanese have invaded Australia?

I dont understand what they would have gained from putting troops in Australia and supporting them with the large amount of logistics and naval assets required to sustain them?  The Australians (even with the US using it as a base) were never really the focus.  Additionally I dont see the Japanese being able to hold any significant portion of a landmass that size even if they stripped troops out of China and let the US run rampant in the rest of the theater.

Just interested in your thoughts on driving for VPs versus the actual tactical/historical significance

Con

[JasonPratt]

The only way an invasion of Australia would be strategically feasible, would be if it led the Allies to the negotiating table: we'll pack up and leave Oz if you let us keep the Greater Prosperity Sphere (or significant parts of it).

That isn't entirely unrealistic, and I suspect that's the rationale about having major VPs there. Even if it only led to Britain, or parts of the Commonwealth, pulling out, or limiting operations in the Pacific, it might be worth trying.

im not playing for an auto victory, even then you get the chance to carry on, and ill ask KyzBP if he wants to but i honestly dont think ill trigger it

For what it's worth -- and maybe this will help offset any minor advantage Kyz gained from the blip in communications earlier -- Kyz is worried about an auto-victory trigger, and thinks you're aiming for it.

[JasonPratt]

Alternately, the Japanese might have benefited from temporarily holding important Oz ports, although that wouldn't be a VP-equivalent strategy.

[BanzaiCat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II

Japan never actually planned an invasion, but the fear of one led Australia to form a close reliance on the United States to protect itself.

Meanwhile, in Tokyo the secret Navy proposal was opposed by the Japanese Army and Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, who regarded it as being unfeasible given Australia's geography and the strength of the Allied defences. Instead, the Japanese military adopted a strategy of isolating Australia from the United States by advancing through the South Pacific. This offensive was abandoned following the Battle of the Coral Sea and Battle of Midway in May and June 1942, and all subsequent Japanese operations in the vicinity of Australia were undertaken to slow the advance of Allied forces.

...

The Army and Navy's calculations of the number of troops needed to invade Australia differed greatly and formed a central area of discussion. In December 1941 the Navy calculated that a force of three divisions (between 45,000 and 60,000 men) would be sufficient to secure Australia's north-eastern and north-western coastal areas. In contrast, the Army calculated that a force of at least ten divisions (between 150,000 and 250,000 men) would be needed. The Army's planners estimated that transporting this force to Australia would require 1.5 to 2 million tons of shipping, which would have required delaying the return of requisitioned merchant shipping. This invasion force would have been larger than the entire force used to conquer South-East Asia. The Army also rejected the Navy's proposal of limiting an invasion of Australia to securing enclaves in the north of the country as being unrealistic given the likely Allied counter-offensives against these positions. Due to its experience in China the Army believed that any invasion of Australia would have to involve an attempt to conquer the entire Australian continent, something which was beyond Japan's abilities.

...

On 14 February, the day before Singapore was captured, the Army and Navy sections of the Imperial General Headquarters again discussed invading Australia and during this discussion Captain Tomioka argued that it would be possible to take Australia with a "token force". This statement was labelled "so much gibberish" in the Imperial General Headquarters' secret diary. General Tomoyuki Yamashita:

He said that after he had taken Singapore, he wanted to discuss with Tojo a plan for the invasion of Australia... Tojo turned down the plan, making the excuse of lengthened supply lines, which would be precarious and open to enemy attack...

The dispute between the Army and Navy was settled in late February with a decision to isolate rather than invade Australia. The Army continued to maintain its view that invading Australia was impractical, but agreed to extend Japan's strategic perimeter and cut Australia off from the US by invading Fiji, Samoa, and New Caledonia in the so-called Operation FS. The question of whether to invade Australia was discussed by Imperial Headquarters for the last time on 27 February and in this meeting the Army stated that it believed that Australia was defended by a 600,000-strong military force. During a further meeting held on 4 March the Imperial Headquarters formally agreed to a "Fundamental Outline of Recommendations for Future War Leadership" which relegated the option of invading Australia as a "future option" only if all other plans went well. This plan was presented to the Emperor by Prime Minister Hideki Tōjō and in effect ended discussion of invading Australia. The FS Operation was not implemented, however, due to Japan's defeats in the Battle of the Coral Sea and Battle of Midway and was canceled on 11 July 1942.

...

The only Japanese force which landed in Australia during the war was a small reconnaissance party which landed in the remote Kimberley region of Western Australia on 19 January 1944 to investigate reports that the Allies were building large bases in the region. This party consisted of four Japanese officers on board a small fishing boat and it investigated the York Sound region for a day and a night before returning to Kupang in Timor on 20 January. While the junior officer who commanded the party suggested using 200 Japanese prison inmates to launch a guerrilla campaign in Australia when he returned to Japan in February, nothing came of this and the officer was posted to other duties. According to historian Peter Stanley, "No historian of standing believes the Japanese had a plan to invade Australia, there is not a skerrick of evidence."

[undercovergeek]

in the game itself ive invaded Oz simply because i dont seek to replicate the war in the pacific by taking the sphere and sitting and building reinforcements for the next 3 years whilst dieing of boredom - its a chance to play high stakes with KyzBP and see how far i can push the Japanese forces

historically, i imagine like JP said - you can have sydney back if you leave us alone in Indonesia, plus holding Oz would have been a major PITA for the USA, i can only imagine the complexities of trying to run the Pacific island take back without been able to use Oz and thats just in the game, its an awful long supply chain from Fiji to San Francisco

[Con]

You have to remember though that the Japanese garrison and naval forces in those islands would not exist. leading to a vacuum that the US could rapidly fill with its additional men and equipment.

Plus holding onto Australia would be the noose Japan would be putting around its own neck on the hope of a bargaining chip.  While that may have been the strategy since Australia was so sparsely populated it would be relatively easy to pull back further south for the Australian forces, consolidating supply chain lines and factories like the Russians did.  I suspect that if the Japanese did invade Australia it would turn into a desert version of the Eastern Front with sun stroked starving Japanese wandering around endless parched deserts being plagued by better supplied Australian partisans.  The navy would be running at full scale operations to keep supply lines even marginally open to multiple sites on a continent and the US Navy would be free to pick and choose its battles since the Japanese are forced into a linear strategy of funneling everything into Australia.

[Airborne Rifles]

the drive by at Ceylon was to see what CAP was operating there for when the attack is under way - the CAP and the numbers involved were poor, it was an unknown mechanic that let the Swordfish through - there really should have been no excuse for that - and im happy we can get in, im thinking after this disaster that its also the last thing KyzBP will be expecting

Aren't Swordfish what did the Italian fleet in at Taranto? And the Bismarck? Tough obsolete little planes. Maybe the game mechanic is that the Swordfish always have to get through  :)