Middle East campaign series releases sep. 24

[Crossroads]

Sorry - I don't mean to be rude, but I was actually talking about all the graphics. There might be enhancements to the graphics and I'm sure they were time consuming, but they are so subtle to the untrained eye that they just looked like the original graphics.

What about this? Not to everyone's taste, I'm sure

Hello, one more CS dev member here, my first post, be kind ...

I am working with the CS 2D graphics so I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts as where we're specifically lacking still.

That's Flashpoints Campaigns, right?

So if you'd get three wishes, what is it that you'd like to see brought into CS titles from there.

Unit stats and pips on counters is something we are talking about right now so I am guessing that would be one. Anything else.

For comparison, here's a little DAR I am writing at the moment: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3929704

Given my question, spot anything particularly missing? I'd be interested for any detailed feedback for sure  :)

Edit: To be specific I am curious as what you'd like to see introduced into the CS titles, not about a direct comparison to another series

[Pinetree]

So if you'd get three wishes, what is it that you'd like to see brought into CS titles from there.

Unit stats and pips on counters is something we are talking about right now so I am guessing that would be one. Anything else.

No 1 for me is: Unit labels for designations i.e. 2/A/4-145 etc.
2: png support
3: can't think of anything else yet...

[RyanE]

I am no graphics ho, but the Flashpoint graphics look crisper, better defined, and actually have a 3D look to them.  Oveirall, the graphics in the CS game look very 1990s like.

[Crossroads]

Thanks guys! I need to log off for today so a couple of quick comments:

- re The two-dimensional appearance of our 2D view is a design decision. 3D unit counters on a flat 2D cardboard game. We can do better, this is 1.00 after all, but that is the aim. Different folks different tastes, so we want to make the game very mod friendly. I started a dev thread on 2D terrain, but it is only a brief introduction at the moment: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3932790. Modders welcome!  :)

- re Unit labels. Our 2D Zoom-in counters are 44x44 (std) and 48x48 (alt), so we are discussing at the moment what to include there. Let us see how it goes.

- re Png graphics. Well as said that is a wishlist item. PNG graphics as such are not the holy grail, they do introduce some capabilities lacking from BMPs of course. (Semi)transparency probably the key one. But often times it is the size of icons that truly limits the look and feel.

[Rayfer]

crossroads....that is one well done DAR in the link you posted above. Thanks for sharing. It really clarifies a lot of aspects of this game that have been bantered about in this thread. I always loved the Campaign Series back in the day. You've reignited my interest.

[Crossroads]

Thanks  :)

We are great fan of the series, the one game I've continuously played since 90's (TOAW another one). So good to see it come alive again!

[Cyrano]

Not all here will agree (will any?) but Panzer Leader was the apotheosis of counter design...achieve this and achieve victory...

Your commitment to this system is admirable and deserving of support (you'll certainly have mine), although the affection for the 3D continues to elude my aged brain.

[dinsdale]

I am working with the CS 2D graphics so I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts as where we're specifically lacking still...

I really appreciate you taking the time to read and respond here, really awesome considering the game has been released and I'm sure you have a million other things to do.

From the screenshots at Matrix it looks like there is no information on the counters. Is this correct? If yes, what's the difficulty in presenting 2D with the same level of detail modern boardgames are able to achieve with their graphics?

Just looking at a recently announced game, and while I am biased in favor of this style map and counters, I just find it looks spectacularly better than anything we ever see on the PC.

http://www.consimworld.com/post/129360409886/in-a-wordwow-hows-this-for-some-major

Not singling out your game, which has made one of the worst UI's in history look presentable, just genuinely curious about the difficulties in achieving this kind of thing.

[Crossroads]

Got home early today, after all  :)

As all here will agree Panzer Leader was the apotheosis of counter design...achieve this and achieve victory...

There, fixed that for you  ;)

I really appreciate you taking the time to read and respond here, really awesome considering the game has been released and I'm sure you have a million other things to do.

From the screenshots at Matrix it looks like there is no information on the counters. Is this correct? If yes, what's the difficulty in presenting 2D with the same level of detail modern boardgames are able to achieve with their graphics?

Just looking at a recently announced game, and while I am biased in favor of this style map and counters, I just find it looks spectacularly better than anything we ever see on the PC.

http://www.consimworld.com/post/129360409886/in-a-wordwow-hows-this-for-some-major

Not singling out your game, which has made one of the worst UI's in history look presentable, just genuinely curious about the difficulties in achieving this kind of thing.

After the hand off to Matrix/Slitherine to put together the installer and download package, we were basically just rolling our thumbs in eager (and nervous!) anticipation of the game to be released, as everyone else. Squeky bum time...

The information on counters that we have at the moment is the Thermometer drawn next to each counter. It can be toggled to display either Strength, Morale, or Action Points remaining. Yes, while aesthetically it is not on "in" a counter, it is technically the same thing. But no, in a manner you refer we don't have any counter info (yet?).

I believe the most pressing limitation technically is the size of the counter. To display text there while of course requires the time to write the code is imho less of a pressing issue.

Thanks for the link, I was not familiar with the game. For a boardgame geek such as myself they don't come better than that. Let us have a look, then.

First, the counters:



While they obviously look great (and they do!), the size of the counter at least in this picture is like 84x84 pixels give or take a pixel or too. It looks so nice because first that is a great design and second there's the room to display all the details.

Let us consider this, then:



Here, the counters are 43x43 pixels plus/minus, so pretty much the same size than ours. Then the question is that are those counters really readable at this zoom level (is it a zoom level?). Or would there need to be less information, or different information given the size available. In theory we could do the very same thing, but could you read the unit information? So what is a great design with larger counters, becomes a bit of a strain to eyes at this zoom level. At least to my eyes. I am not taking anything away from the game, mind. Just making a point about the size matters thing.

Posting now, to see if I managed to link the pictures properly in this forum...

[Crossroads]

It worked, yay!

Then for the Terrain on the game. Simply beautiful. That looks like a static map though, ie it is drawn exactly as it is there, instead of been built from generic tiles as some others game do CS, TOAW for instance. WitW,WitE, Flashpoint Campaigns, they all have static maps with hexes on top of them. It is a bit of a challenge to be able to do the same with generic tiles, but as I wrote earlier this is 1.00 and we've only started.

To my shame I was not aware of this forum. Happy to be here, and any questions regarding the CS titles shoot, one of us is sure to pick up  :)

[dinsdale]

While they obviously look great (and they do!), the size of the counter at least in this picture is like 84x84 pixels give or take a pixel or too. It looks so nice because first that is a great design and second there's the room to display all the details. ...Here, the counters are 43x43 pixels plus/minus, so pretty much the same size than ours. Then the question is that are those counters really readable at this zoom level (is it a zoom level?). Or would there need to be less information, or different information given the size available. In theory we could do the very same thing, but could you read the unit information?

I would say the smaller size makes them look too busy and almost unreadable. I think the game (and others) would need to alter the zoom sizes and then reduce information on the counters as they get zoomed out.

Should be done by lunchtime no :)

The one advantage to putting more on the counters is that you could theoretically get rid of the detail sidebar and use the space to for more hexes. I'm not suggesting this is possible for CS given the need to support 3D and 2D, but just for wargame design in general.

[Wolfe1759]

Also having watched the clip, once a helicopter has popped up you can't put it back to Nap of the Earth without moving it a hex first - that is either a bug or a rather clunky oversight.

The "no two consecutive ascents/descents in the same hex" rule is meant to enforce more natural flight paths.  So that helos aren't vertically ascending/descending all the time.

In the video, the helo had moved to that one hex, then ascended from NOE to Low air level in order to sight the target and make the shot.  Having ascended in that hex, it would then move back a hex, descend back down to NOE air level, in order to hide from view once again.

So the usual sequence would be:  move forward one hex, ascend; fire; move backward one hex, descend.  Rinse and repeat.

We have a Vietnam War combat veteran on the team (Australian) who is fine with the Air Model and how it portrays helos, and their flight pathing.

CS is not a flight sim.

Not a bug, WAD.  Clunky?  Your Mileage May Vary.

Berto - thanks for the detailed reply, makes sense and now you've explained it I agree not a bug and not clunky just WAD  :)

[Nefaro]

The zoomed-out 2D does look better than the original CS series. 

The original's map & counters blended together too much.  Your updated ones are certainly more crisp & defined, making it easier to see.

While I generally gave most orders in 3D view, I did still use some zoomed-out 2D views to get better overall pictures of the situation, in between.  The new one looks better, especially the map terrain.  O0

[berto]

Let us consider this, then:

Several random comments:

• See how crowded it gets when you have counters stacked three deep?  In Middle East (as in all the CS games), you can have counters stacked six deep (even more than that)!  It would get impossibly overcrowded to show counters, with stats, six (or more) levels deep.
  
• Middle East has four levels of 2D zoom.  The stats (and pips & markers etc.) displayed on-counter would need to differ at each level of zoom.
  
  
• In Middle East, about the sidebar Info Box stealing space from the map:  Hit the U hot key to toggle between the full sidebar and the one-unit-only floating unit Info Box.
  
  On-counter stats, markers, etc. -- It's a matter of current debate in the CS dev forum.  We'll be doing something in future, we just haven't decided exactly what yet!
  

[jomni]

It's out. 
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/582/details/Campaign.Series:.Middle.East.1948.-1985