Tigers on the Hunt

[gameleaper]

too much coffee and programing for 24hrs

[magnus]

I'm a tad bit confused, but glad you are not leaving.

TOTH was always stated to have been based on ASL. It is not by any means a carbon copy and I think that is where some people are getting hung up on.

To put it a different way, all war boardgames are based on "Tactics", but it really doesn't enter into the picture.

[Father Ted]

I have to admit that I've been following this thread and wondering slightly about copyright issues. I have to confess that I don't know ASL ( :-[), but I would assume that a set of rules would be copyrighted, much like D&D rules aren't just generic.

[panzerde]

I have to agree gameleaper that I can't see a single thing that you've done that's unethical. I don't think it's any secret that TotH is based on ASL. If it happens to be the case that some (or all) of the mechanics of the game are lifted right out of ASL, and that's been discovered by modders/players, disclosing that is in no way unethical behavior.

Whether or not there's a copyright issue there is something that the current ASL rights holder will have to decide to look into. Anyone though that suggests that you, or anyone else that discloses what you've discovered is unethical because they believe you might have revealed something that another party was trying to cover up is...nuts.

[Jarhead0331]

Is the game worth a look? What makes it different from all the other hex turn-based WWII games out there? I never played ASL, will I still enjoy it?

[WYBaugh]

Is the game worth a look? What makes it different from all the other hex turn-based WWII games out there? I never played ASL, will I still enjoy it?

I'm curious too.  I've watched a couple of twitch plays and it does look interesting but I've never played ASL either so not sure if the game is good on it's own merits or just because it's ASL'ish.

[GJK]

I don't want to speak for Peter, though I guess I am, and hopefully he will correct me if I'm wrong in any of this, but Peter started this project a dozen years ago or so.  He first mentioned it on the Gamesquad forums and I reached out to him (being an avid ASL player).  He sent me an early build and asked that I not share it (which I never did).  It *was* ASL.  At this stage, he wanted to make an AI capable ASL game for him and few select friends to enjoy.  I fell out touch with Peter until I saw that the project had been ongoing all this time and that Matrix was going to actually produce it.  Obviously, once it was set to be commercialized, references to "ASL" had to be stripped and the appearance was changed.  Also, some unique things were added while maintaining the basic "flow" of ASL.  Is it "ASL"?  No, it's not.  It's close (closest to ASL Starter Kit truth be told) but it's not "ASL".  However, if you've never played ASL but want somewhat of an idea of how ASL plays, then this is a great game to do that with.  It's much closer to ASL than say Squad Battles.

During playtesting, I too asked if copyright was going to be an issue since it appears that some of the tables that ASL uses are incorporated- but the kicker is, you can't really verify that it's an exact clone because you never see them.  Apparently Eric and folks at Matrix felt that the changes made were significant enough to avoid any kind of lawsuit.  I've monitored CSW (both MMP folder and the ASL folders) and there's not been one mention of this game.  I would think however that if this game were to raise the eyebrows of Hasborg, then VASL would of done so long ago...and MMP fully endorses VASL.

I missed Gameleaper's comments but if there were similar to mine here, then no way were they at all inappropriate in my opinion - how could they be if it was his opinion on the comparisons?  Gameleaper...come back!  :)

[jomni]

Is the game worth a look? What makes it different from all the other hex turn-based WWII games out there? I never played ASL, will I still enjoy it?

I'm curious too.  I've watched a couple of twitch plays and it does look interesting but I've never played ASL either so not sure if the game is good on it's own merits or just because it's ASL'ish.

The Phases make ASL unique. Old timers think it's the epitome of squad level simulation. But modern games
did away with it (or maybe because they want to differentiate). And computer games hardly need it.

[Cyrano]

Jomni's +1!

One of the great conceits at the heart of ASL (and LnL and a number of other board tactical games, but I digress) is the phase structure.  It was needed back in the hoary mists of the past because IGO UGO games demand them to prevent overly gamey behavior. (It strikes me that all games are gamey by definition but, again, I digress.)

The coming of PC games has mooted them and, I increasingly believe, made them a ludatory appendix.

Now to go troll some ASL boards and see if things are getting grim...

[Richie61]

There are a few squad based board games to use the same type of phases. Advanced Tobruk series uses a simulator system. Then Old School Tactical and Valor & Victory. Even Panzer GMT kind falls into these typical '70's phase.  I think Panzer was done before Squad Leader.

Course we can all agree that Squad Leader was a better title than ASL 

ASL = Ain't Squad Leader  :))

[panzerde]

The coming of PC games has mooted them and, I increasingly believe, made them a ludatory appendix.

Heh, heh. You said "ludatory." Heh...

[Cyrano]

...and to think I AVOIDED using nugatory to prevent this kind of juvenile behavior.

Cannot wait to see you gits in just a few months...

[-budd-]

I'm a non-ASL player, i'm still on the fence. Its my preferred scale but im kind of worried about the flow of the game, seems like a lot of start and stop and a lot of clicks.

[jomni]

I'm a non-ASL player, i'm still on the fence. Its my preferred scale but im kind of worried about the flow of the game, seems like a lot of start and stop and a lot of clicks.

That is the beauty of ASL (except the clicks)

[Richie61]

I'm a non-ASL player, i'm still on the fence. Its my preferred scale but im kind of worried about the flow of the game, seems like a lot of start and stop and a lot of clicks.

That is the beauty of ASL (except the clicks)

Agree!  O0