John Tiller's Latest; Panzer Battles 2 - Normandy released

[MengJiao]

I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(

  Interesting.  Can't happen in the Gold, Juno Sword part of the Grand tactical boardgame anyway.  I do like the John Tiller games, but these days I'm absorbed in VASSAL.

  I was so WRONG.  I should have bought this game in December.  Oh well.  It is a great game and I'm glad I finally got it.

[Strela]

I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(

  Interesting.  Can't happen in the Gold, Juno Sword part of the Grand tactical boardgame anyway.  I do like the John Tiller games, but these days I'm absorbed in VASSAL.

  I was so WRONG.  I should have bought this game in December.  Oh well.  It is a great game and I'm glad I finally got it.

Mengjiao,

Glad you're enjoying it!

As a further update to all, the first patch for Normandy should be out sometime in the coming week. We just got the long awaited update from John Tiller and just need to do our normal Q&A thing...

I'll post more here when it's released.

David

[MengJiao]

I have held off on this one, but maybe time to spend some money.

  I spent the money and am now playing Operation Bluecoat -- a great scenario, though I made the 23rd Hussars A level troops and added the 2nd Household Cavalry.  At the moment it's 9:30 on July 30 and VIII Corps has only started its breakthroughs.  BuddaBudda.

[panzerde]

I'll try to avoid gushing and seeming like a fan boy, but this really is one of the best platoon scale WW2 computer games around. The Kursk game is great as well, though I think this Normandy game has the more interesting scenarios. I really enjoy how the game really illustrates what you read in the various histories.

[Grim.Reaper]

Still on my wish list...some day will pull the trigger on this

[shodan]

Out of curiosity how does this compare to something like flash point campaign series?  This one does look interesting.

[panzerde]

Out of curiosity how does this compare to something like flash point campaign series?  This one does look interesting.

The two games are basically the same scale, in that the basic unit is the platoon. FPC:RS uses 500m hexes if I recall, while PzB uses 250m hexes.


The biggest difference is that Panzer Battles uses a traditional "I go, you go" turn-based approach, with fixed turns of 30 minutes, and where you will actually be moving each counter hex by hex to where you want it. When attacking in PzB, you will designate specific targets for each attacking unit, either fire combat or assault. Defensive fire is automated, however. Very much a translation of board game mechanics into a computer format.


FPC:RS uses a simultaneous movement system ("WEGO") where you plot your moves, your opponent (or the AI) plots his moves, and then things are simultaneously resolved. Combat is also automatic in FPC:RS. Of course, the most striking difference is the variable and asymmetric turn length in FPC:RS, simulating OODA loops and really emphasizing command and control differences between forces.


Both are absolutely superb games and game systems. I've spent probably the majority of my gaming time this year playing one or the other.

[Hofstadter]

Flashpoint campaigns is mostly a command simulator, you have almost no control over your units. Basically all you can do is tell your units where to go and attempt to time their routes. The game focuses itself on what its like to see your plan to go hell and watch because your OODA loop is borked and you have to wait for 20 more ingame minutes before you can change the plan.

Panzer battles is a lot more traditional, you basically always direct control over your units and you choose who to attack and how.

The primary difference is turn resolution. Panzer campaigns is static, while flashpoint campaigns is dynamic, where the time to give orders is determined by a variety of factors. It is ridiculously unique in this aspect

[shodan]

Flashpoint campaigns is mostly a command simulator, you have almost no control over your units. Basically all you can do is tell your units where to go and attempt to time their routes. The game focuses itself on what its like to see your plan to go hell and watch because your OODA loop is borked and you have to wait for 20 more ingame minutes before you can change the plan.

Panzer battles is a lot more traditional, you basically always direct control over your units and you choose who to attack and how.

The primary difference is turn resolution. Panzer campaigns is static, while flashpoint campaigns is dynamic, where the time to give orders is determined by a variety of factors. It is ridiculously unique in this aspect

Got it, good explanation will have to look at picking this one some time soon.

[MengJiao]

I'll try to avoid gushing and seeming like a fan boy, but this really is one of the best platoon scale WW2 computer games around. The Kursk game is great as well, though I think this Normandy game has the more interesting scenarios. I really enjoy how the game really illustrates what you read in the various histories.

  Indeed.  You can for example use PzBN to further elucidate what happened to KG Meyer (the mobile group of the 352 infantry division).  The KG is very well defined in the Gold Juno Sword Grand Tactical Boardgame.  In PzBN it turns up in the Villers-Sec/Moving inland scenario.  In reality, the KG was somehow wiped out on the afternoon of D-day by troops moving inland from Gold Beach.  Some accounts mention that the KG had been up all night looking for paratroopers and perhaps was a bit sleepy when they ran into the 50th Div and the 8th Armored Bde.  BUT there they are in PzBN!
Not sleepy at all.  In reality the KG appears to have been wiped out before it got up to the Villers-Sec ridge, but in the PzBN scenario, the KG navigates that part of the world with no trouble.  Anyway, I could do a submap from the giant map and see what can be done with KG Meyer.

[Tuna]

Getting the urge to grab one of these.. Leaning more towards Kursk, cause I'd hate to be 'bogged down in the Hedgrows', or is that really not the case with this one?

[panzerde]

There are definitely some scenarios with hedgerows, primarily the American scenarios covering up through Cobra. Certainly some hedgerows in the Commonwealth scenarios, but there is plenty of the fighting around Caen that takes place in more open ground.

Both games represent a variety of terrain types, and understanding how to use them or deal with them is key to the game. Where Normandy has hedgerows, Kursk has endless belts of mines and Soviet bunkers all over the place. Both can be dealt with pretty effectively, but you have to learn the tactics.

[GroggyGrognard]

There are definitely some scenarios with hedgerows, primarily the American scenarios covering up through Cobra. Certainly some hedgerows in the Commonwealth scenarios, but there is plenty of the fighting around Caen that takes place in more open ground.

Apparently Operation Perch has three scenarios. Those could play out to be interesting.


Groggy

[Strela]

I'll try to avoid gushing and seeming like a fan boy, but this really is one of the best platoon scale WW2 computer games around. The Kursk game is great as well, though I think this Normandy game has the more interesting scenarios. I really enjoy how the game really illustrates what you read in the various histories.

  Indeed.  You can for example use PzBN to further elucidate what happened to KG Meyer (the mobile group of the 352 infantry division).  The KG is very well defined in the Gold Juno Sword Grand Tactical Boardgame.  In PzBN it turns up in the Villers-Sec/Moving inland scenario.  In reality, the KG was somehow wiped out on the afternoon of D-day by troops moving inland from Gold Beach.  Some accounts mention that the KG had been up all night looking for paratroopers and perhaps was a bit sleepy when they ran into the 50th Div and the 8th Armored Bde.  BUT there they are in PzBN!
Not sleepy at all.  In reality the KG appears to have been wiped out before it got up to the Villers-Sec ridge, but in the PzBN scenario, the KG navigates that part of the world with no trouble.  Anyway, I could do a submap from the giant map and see what can be done with KG Meyer.

KG Meyer was activated very early after the reports of parachutists near Isigny-sur-Mer, i.e. the US drops. Meyer's force was the primary reserve for the Omaha to Sword region. They moved from their garrison areas well south of Gold Beach (see scenario #0606_10 The Longest Day for their starting positions) and were almost at Isigny-sur-Mer when they were recalled because of the reported Allied landings at Omaha & Gold Beach. They backtracked with one battalion sent to reinforce Omaha (as shown in #0606_08 Omaha Beach). The remainder of the regiment with attached Stug's arrived at Bayeaux at approximately 14:00 hours and then moved towards Villiers-le-Sec where it was destroyed by the British moving inland. It was a heavy defeat with the equivalent of a reinforced regiment wiped out (see scenario #0606_03 The Road to Bayeux for the British landings at Gold and the subsequent fighting with KG Meyer). The #0606_09 Villiers-le-Sec scenario is semi hypothetical as KG Meyer is shown as arriving full strength at 17:00 hours. This was not the case as it had taken losses due to air in the advance march. What this scenario was meant to show was an example of the kind of meeting engagement that happened in the first day or two of the invasion.

One final footnote, Oberst Leutenant Meyer was killed in the dramatic engagement that destroyed his command on the afternoon of June 6th, 1944.

David

[Strela]

Hi All,

We've just released the awaited 1.01 patch for Panzer Battles - Normandy.

http://www.johntillersoftware.com/updates/BattlesNormandy_101_upd.exe



Changes for Battles of Normandy V1.01
Bug Fixes
    - Units could use a bridge while in travel mode to enter an obstacle and then exit the hex, rather than lose their whole movement allowance. This has been corrected and units will now lose all their movement points if they move into an obstacle hex
    - Engineer units were in some cases isolated when in a minefield - this should no longer occur
    - Engineer units will not clear a minefield in a turn that they recover from disruption
    - Adjacent engineers no longer remove isolation for units in minefields
    - Off map artillery was not firing during the defensive fire phase - this will now occur at the same frequency as on map artillery
    - Engineers that attempt to damage a bridge or AT ditch will reveal themselves if currently concealed
    - Units can no longer combine if in mismatched travel modes
    - File mismatch due to different encryption setting during PBEM - fixed
    - Campaign auto-advance on wrong password entry - fixed

Enhancements
    - New parameter file entry - Fatigue factor. Used for scaling fatigue accumulation. Set at 2.0 for Normandy & Kursk. Will be 3.0 for future titles to match the fatigue calculations in Panzer Campaigns. 3.0 is the more appropriate value to use, but none of the Kursk & Normandy scenarios were tested with the higher value
    - New on counter broken and disrupted markings - visible when stacked and unstacked.
    - New Getting Started documentation, including Campaign Primer and Terrain & Combat tables
    - Updated General Help guide with a revised layout and additional information.
    - Updated User guide with a revised layout and additional information. All manuals are a work in progress and will continue to be rationalised over time.

Order of Battle Changes
    - Luftwaffe 42 76mm Gun btty (hs) Soft attack value reduced to 9 from 39.
    - Corrected - Is Support- flags for heavy mortars in 5. Fallschirm-Jäger Division & FJ-Regt 6
    - American & French M-21 Halftrack 81mm mortar soft attack value reduced to 10 to align with other 81mm mortars

Graphics Changes
    - Regiments in British, British Airborne, Canadian and Polish are now show as battalions, conforming to the correct unit size.
    - Corrected incorrect alternative graphics in US airborne
    - New -small- terrain features. All files are under \Maps\Map Variants\Small. Copy all the 11 files into the map directory and overwrite the existing. To revert to the original graphics, copy the files out of \Maps\Map Variants\Original directory back into the Map directory.

Scenario Changes
    - #01 Getting Started: Hill 192 - Kraut Corner   Missing entrenchments in hex (5,8) added. All entrenchments now halved in value i.e. marked as vacated.
    - #02 Getting Started: Utah Beach         Erroneous reinforcements and releases removed. Game length extended to 12 turns. Selected defences now begin disrupted.
    - #0607_02: Authie - 12th SS Riposte      Corrected scenario name
    - #0614_01: Return to Carentan         Tweaks for balance
    - #0622_01: Cherbourg Landfront         Corrected scenario name
    - #0622_01a: Cherbourg Landfront         Corrected scenario name
    - #0622_02: Cherbourg - The Right Flank      Corrected scenario name
    - #0626_01: Operation Epsom - Day One      Replaced DD tanks with standard Shermans
    - #0629_01: Operation Epsom - Day Four      Corrected scenario name
    - #0711_01: Le Dezert            Added a supply source in (48,16), 60th Regt, 9th Infantry added
    - #0711_01a: Le Dezert            Added a supply source in (48,16), 60th Regt, 9th Infantry added
    - #0711_02: Hill 192 - Battle in the Bocage      Missing entrenchments in hex (5,11) & (6,10) added.
    - #0718_03: Operation Goodwood - Fifes      Corrected -fixed- reinforcements
    - #0719_01: Goodwood Day 2            Corrected scenario name
    - #0803_01: la Bistiere - Tigers Marsch!      Removed redundant British smoke. 3 turns added for HTH play
    - #0803_01a: la Bistiere - Tigers Marsch!      New vs AI scenario
    - #0803_02: Les Grands Bonfaits - Nedforce      Updated description
    - #0808_04: Gaumesnil            Corrected scenario name
    - #0808_05: Cauvicourt - Blooding the Polish   Corrected scenario name
    - #0809_01: Worthington Force          Corrected scenario name
    - #0811_01: Barenton - V Corps Strikes      Corrected missing stream hex sides in hex (11,220 & (11,29), II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
    - #0812_01: Forêt d'Ecouves            Corrected scenario name
    - #0820_01: Falaise             Corrected scenario name
    - CG_2US_Armd_6: Barenton             II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
    - CG_2US_Armd_6a: Barenton             II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
    - CG_2US_Armd_6b: Barenton             II SS Pzkorps HQ now off map
    - CG_2US_Armd_6c: Barenton            Corrected ownership of trenches

Map Changes
    - Alternate small map graphics included
    - Heavy Bridge removed from hex (85,108)
    - Medium Bridges added at (242,198) and (246,197)
    - Small Bridges added at (232,199), (236,203) & (237,204)
    - All rail bridges converted to small bridges to reflect their poor ability to carry vehicles.
    - Numerous place name updates
    - Rail lines removed as per the below. Thanks to Chris Haigh who did all the research here. Most of these were tramways and were in the actual adjacent road - most closed before the war;
   - Isigny - Grandcamp - St Laurent - Le Molay/Littry - Balleroy - (Closed 1929)
       - Balleroy - Bayeaux (only shown on map going as far as Subles) - (Closed 1930)
       - Balleroy - St Martin des Basacres (358,337) - Closed (1930)
       - Bayeaux - Ryes - Arromanches - (Closed 1930/1)
       - Ryes - Courseulles - (Closed 1931)
       - Luc sur Mer - Ouistreham - Benouville - Caen (shown only going as far as Blainville) - (Closed 1944)
       - Pont de Ranville (actually Benouville crossing Pegasus bridge!) - Dives - (Closed 1932)
       - Caen (west station) - Potigny (547,336) - Falaise - (Closed 1932/3)

Changes for Battles of Normandy V1.0
    - Added Hard Fire Modifier to balance hard attacks.
    - Fixed AA range calculation to use new range effect.
    - Added fire benefit when direct firing at a target at a lower elevation.
    - Added Highligh Recon Units feature.
    - Modified unknown strength to show highest digit when unit is in unobstructed terrain.
    - Adjusted reporting for air attacks.
    - Corrected hex stack reporting when a wreck is in the hex
    - Corrected a crash bug when the last man/gun/vehicle is destroyed by defensive fire
    - Corrected a fog of war bug when right clicking
    - Included a check that all off board artillery is not placed on the map.
    - Any fixed unit that is fired on will now instantly un-fix





Thanks,

David