Good or evil? How do you play?

[Nefaro]

As a DM you can have fun with this.

Let the Rogue pick a few pockets (and even fail) before he's caught.

Let them waylay a merchant or two on the highway before they're ambushed.

It'll be all the more fun when you drop the hammer on them!

Sounds like angling toward this middle-of-the-road style of campaign is what MD's player group is looking for.  Less of a goody-goody straightforward superhero style situation, and more of a gritty anti-hero feel.  Which could be a lot of fun once figured out.

With more self-centered neutral characters, you can throw challenges at them from both sides.  Since they're firmly in the center, then you should have all kinda of foils to draw upon.  Not just from the usual evil side, but also more room for the law hounding them and associative yet often untrustworthy interactions with criminal and rebel factions and leaders.  Could lead to discovery of secret conspiracies, especially within what was previously perceived as a Lawful/Good faction which had been hounding them.  Such methods could still be used to pit them against the bad guys, although it may take some time & effort getting it to that point.  Maybe such things will slowly bring them closer to your style of classical Good Hero play, in a roundabout way, to some extent.

This more free-wheeling neutral type of campaign is surely more difficult to do because it requires even more flexibility and ad-lib'ing.  But if you can catch your feet, it has some of the greatest potential for enjoyment & character evolution.


EDIT:
Don't think of it as the fellowship, marching in a desperate bid to destroy evil, in LotR.   Think of it more like a bunch of Han Solos who may eventually & inadvertently get mixed up in the rebellion.  Or some of the characters in Game Of Thrones (notably the mercs) who end up benefiting by finding themselves in the lucrative employ of Tyrion or Dragon Lady.

More good suggestions!

Thanks MD.

Look at it as an opportunity to get off the beaten path a bit.  Lotsa room for intrigue and other stuff to mix in.

While D&D and some other fantasy RPGs default to the LoTR style of black & white good versus evil campaigns, I think you can still have a wonderful time taking cues from less clear-cut and grittier stuff.  There is a lot of ideas out there for it in movies, books, and even other RPGs. 

While you may not directly think of it as being a "Shadowrun style campaign in D&D", such inspirations could probably help.  Something I recall reading in a grittier RPG, Warhammer FRP, was a specific example of farming plots from heist movies, spaghetti westerns, war movies, Detective/Noir shows, etc.  Modern plots, even. 

While the suggestion isn't uncommon in RPGs, one of the examples really stuck in my mind.  In that case it was an adventure hook they called "Kali's Heroes" where the somewhat rogue-ish party finds out that a Temple of Kali is hiding a horde of loot (from donations for the poor or whatever moral dilemma you may want to test them with) but is guarded by some special monsters/troops.  Of course, the heroes will want to figure out how to get it, since their characters are driven by wealth & power, and not an overly strong moral compass, but you can still test them in extra ways.  Even in a simple heist scenario.  On the flip side, you could introduce it as the heist from an innocent temple, only to find they're some secret evil cult when they break in.  Ends up being the PCs vs Evil scenario you were looking for.  Perhaps one of their past ne'er-do-well partners finds out and attempts to beat them to it.  Modifications are endless.

Lotsa ways to go!

I think you can come up with a lot more variety when the PCs are more interested in personal gain.  Plenty plots to farm from media, too.

[MetalDog]

More good suggestions, Nef!  I certainly fall prey to the Tolkien trap.  It totally colors my perceptions of D&D.  The more I think about this, and the more good suggestions I get, the more I am looking forward to doing this.   

[LongBlade]

Funny, but I had a similar thought.

Remember that "evil" doesn't necessarily mean "always inflicts harm on others."

Think of evil as being highly selfish/disinterested in the welfare of others.

[Staggerwing]

Think of evil as being highly selfish/disinterested in the welfare of others.

Kind of like an Antisocial personality disorder.

[Wes]

Think of evil as being highly selfish/disinterested in the welfare of others.

Kind of like an Antisocial personality disorder.

Isn't that a New York Dolls song?

[Bison]

MD, I think it great you've rediscovered tabletop RPGing.

What did you pick up?  Starter Set?  Or the 3 core books?

Personally I'd just make the first few sessions about learning the basic mechanics and learning to role play as a group.  The group dynamics will take shape over time which will eventually will shape the "alignment" that the group's players will take on for their characters.  I'd maybe do some smaller "side" quests in the beginning to set the stage for the town or region of the campaign.  Let them work together to solve puzzles and beat encounters.

The reality is you have a group of "neutrals", which is really nothing more than people wanting to be individualists.  Chaotic Neutral is a follow my own path kind of person. Rules and traditions don't matter.  It's about what feels "right" to them to promote their own individual freedom.  It's not about good or evil and certainly not about causing mayhem and chaos.  That's the Chaotic Evil alignment.  Neutral good is the same, but they will do what they "think and feel" is the "good" action to take even if it breaks the law or rules.  Neutral evil is all about self interest.  If it will better them personally, they'll do whatever it takes to promote their self interest.  So they may break the rules or they may follow the rules as long as the outcome benefits them personally.  The true neutral is really just about making personal choices without a bias toward good or evil (Unless there is a philosophical reason that is seeking the balance of good and evil).  There is not a compelling interest for promoting good over evil or visa versa, but making choices that are simply in the interest in the person.  Although I think there is a compelling case that they would prefer good rule over evil rule.

Now with all that being said and it's been many moons since I last DM a campaign.  My words of caution to a new DM, because I've made all of these mistakes.  :)

1.  Giving out too much in the way of money or magic items can be bad.  It sets an expectation of reward and can be hard to deal with as the campaign matures.  The Monte Hall magical item world can be fun for a little while but it eventually gets boring just as never getting any can be equally unrewarding.  It's a fine balance.

2.  You are the narrator and guide of the story, but how the story unfolds...well that's a group responsibility.  I'd worry less about every little detail, but more about the basic encounters.  Does it matter if they take the right or left fork in the road?  Maybe to them, but to you they can all lead to the encounter.  Just don't get overly fixated on YOUR story and how YOU want it to play out.  Let your players mold the story from the background you provide them.  If the game starts to get away from you, then you can make adjustments later on if needed.   

3.  I'm like you I don't really like evil groups.  I personally never found them fun to play with or DM for.   And a single player if they are truly playing as chaotic evil will IMHO eventually destroy the group and campaign unless everyone else sort of bandwagons on but then it may not be very enjoyable for you.  I had a play group that disbanded because one person just ruined the fun by running amok.  Not that you couldn't play a campaign for that style, but I always found chaotic evil better for an NPC than a player character.  Lawful evil and neutral evil are manageable, because there is a rational motivation.  It may be warped, but it's still logical and can be worked into most campaign just because of the self interest aspect.  The Paladin wants to destroy the dragons for disrupting order, but the evil Magic User may want an ancient text that the dragons possess.  The evil characters can have a rational self interest that isn't necessarily about raping and pillaging the local countryside for no other reason then they can do it.  I'd just caution you don't let one players "fun" ruin a new group. 

4.  However, a group of neutrals is really not much different than a group of good heroes.  The motivation is a little different, but they aren't out to wreak havoc and chaos.  I think Nef said it earlier, but the world is more like a Game of Thrones type world.  No decision is ever cut and dry, but there sure as the hell can be consequences.  So don't necessarily need to change the back story of dragons and their evil network, but you just have to create the back story for the characters as to why they want to get involved.   And maybe rather than "evil" promoting dragons, it's about "power" and "control" hungry dragons.  Same story but just a slightly different moral basis.  You players should be able to feed you some background of their characters to help you out here.  Maybe one gaming session is just them telling their characters' "story"?

5.  Have fun man!  I think it's awesome.  I actually just pulled out my beginners box for Pathfinder to play with my kids, but I think I might go with the DnD starter set and work up from there just because of the streamline rules.

[MetalDog]

All good points, Bison.  Thanks for taking the time to write them all out.  I had no idea you were a DM from way back.   O0

I bought the starter box back around Christmas.  Hadn't really fooled with it much since the initial read through.  Then my daughter came to me and said she had told some friends of hers that wanted to learn that her dad was looking to run a campaign.  And the more I thought about it, the more I knew she was right.  Then in one of those twists of life that happen, the next day, I texted a friend of mine I hadn't heard from in a year and a half or so.  And during the back and forth, he said we should get together for some D&D some time.  I immediately asked him if Saturday night was alright and he said he and his brother would be stoked to come.  So, I immediately went to Books A Million and bought the DMG and PH.  I didn't have the money to get the MM.  I have a work around for that though.

Saturday night comes around and all I've had time to do is skim the PH.  I had taken the time to make copies of the pertinent Class descriptions and had enough copies of character sheets.  I explained some of what they were after, Ability Scores, Saving Throws, Armor Class, etc.  And everyone started rolling dice and figuring out where everything went and what it was for.  We all agreed to meet two weeks from last night for the next session.  I figure that will be a learning session, too.

Some of the things I've found in 5e that are difficult to get used to are classes aren't tied to alignments anymore.  They finally have everything streamlined to the d20.  The game is about the modifiers in play and not so much as the ability scores that determine them.  The magic using characters have it much better now due to Spell Slots and you start with 3 Cantrips and 2 1st Level Spells.  By 3rd level, you have 4 1sts and 2 2nds.  It takes WAAAAAAAAY less experience to move up Levels.  300 XP to 2nd and 900 XP to 3rd.  4th is only 2700 XP.  There is a reliance on added powers and perks at a fairly consistent pace and some of the other little concepts: Advantage/Disadvantage, using your Ability Score boost  to purchase a Feat rather than boost Ability Scores, how they treat falling to 0 HP.

All in all, I like it.  Still doesn't seem right you can play a non-good Paladin.  Or that it takes 300 XP to gain your first level.  I think we are going to enjoy this.

[Bison]

Well I the XP is pretty easy to handle because unless they have the books and are demanding that the "rules say" this is the XP, you can just adjust the amount you are giving them.  Plus for example (I don't know the exact amount) but if a kobald is worth 10 xp divide that total amount the group.  So 5 players each get 2 xp each and not 10 xp for the kobald.  Also I think that the idea of 5e is to move away from the combat focus that was really prevalent in 3/4 ed to focus more on the role playing aspect.  So the xp should on an average gaming night be much less then a combat heavy game if you are basing xp strictly off of monsters and defeated encounters.  The reality is you could house rule the xp however you want so you can really control the speed that the player's characters are leveling.

Also get on the official site and browse the tabletop resources.  Lots of free stuff there to view online, save as a pfd, or print.  I'm pretty sure the digital dm guide has a decent number of monsters that will certainly get you through the first several sessions until you can get your hands on a MM.

Yeah I DM'd for many years.  I bucked the games "innovations" and stuck with 1 ed. over 2 ed.  Then I didn't play again until 3.5 and now that my kids are getting old enough to role play, I'll be picking up 5 ed.   I like 3.5 and Pathfinder (same ruleset) but it's, as Longblade said, detailed and frankly all of the various dice checks can really bog a game down if you let the rules takeover the table and fun.

[Bison]

Also there are a lot of good channels on youtube that can help you learn to DM or understand the rules/concepts better.  I actually like to listen to these guys talk about the game.  I just like that you can tell they love to DM and RP, and they do have good ideas or at least you some food for thought about certain topics or issues that might come up in a game.  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHLzgnQu3OWn31g2PebQV5Q

[Double Deuce]

All in all, I like it.  Still doesn't seem right you can play a non-good Paladin.

I think the intent was to make the Paladin more of a religious fighter for any of a campaign's available religions than the LG ones us old school gamers grew up with.

[Bison]

All in all, I like it.  Still doesn't seem right you can play a non-good Paladin.

I think the intent was to make the Paladin more of a religious fighter for any of a campaign's available religions than the LG ones us old school gamers grew up with.

My playgroup had evil paladins back in 1 ed. by house rule.  It never made sense that only a lawful good deity would have an order of  holy knights  to enforce the customs and traditions of the faith and punish those who would deviate from that truth.  Many a good adventures were had against an evil order of knights seeking to impose evil on the world.

Eventually they added the Cavalier class in Unearthed Arcana.  The Paladin was a sub-Class of the cavalier.  The cavalier was essentially an alignment based "paladin".

[Staggerwing]

Think of evil as being highly selfish/disinterested in the welfare of others.

Kind of like an Antisocial personality disorder.

Isn't that a New York Dolls song?

That would be 'Personality Crisis'. Great band, the New York Dolls.  O0

[MetalDog]

I'll check in to those YouTube videos, Bison.  Thanks again for the insight :)

[Bison]

Your topic worked out well for me too.  I just pulled out the little DnD stuff I have remaining, which is now little more than the PHB, DMG, and MM for 3.5, and my PathFinder Core Rulebook and beginners box, and few really random remnants of 1 ed.  As I was going back through the rules, I was just sort of meh about having to relearn and explain all of the various types of checks and rolls to a younger audience.  So I started reading more on 5 ed. because it is supposedly more streamlined. 

Anyway Longblade and DD are certainly going to be better references for the 5 ed. rules, but the craft of DM/GM is something that transcends editions or even RPGs.  The challenges faced in one game are very seldom, outside of rule set variation, different between them.  Such as the disruptive player, encounter design, encouraging RPing, and the like.  It's all good stuff.

[Nefaro]

I'll check in to those YouTube videos, Bison.  Thanks again for the insight :)

There are definitely some good vids with important tips made by experienced DMs.