Breastfeeding in Uniform!?!

[Jarhead0331]

Forget about the uniform issue for a second...I think everyone can agree that a mother should not be breastfeeding her baby while she is on duty?  Right?  I mean, there is no MOS for teet-suckling technician. Well, maybe in the Navy, but I digress... ;)

OK.  So logically, a mother should only be breastfeeding her baby while she is off-duty.  However, in the military, you shouldn't be wearing your uniform when you're off duty, so this is really obvious conduct that should be avoided while in uniform and in public.  I understand, sometimes you're on duty and then when you're in transit back to your home, you may stop at the store to pick something up, or run errands.  I do it when necessary.  But, whatever, do you HAVE to breast feed during that time?  Can't you have a bottle prepared?  Can't you wait until you return home?  Can't you wait until you've changed, or at the very least, go someplace private, like a restroom? I mean heck, why would you even have your damn baby with you?

Listen folks...when you're in the military you agree to make certain obvious sacrifices.  You also agree to make some not so obvious sacrifices.  Breastfeeding while you're in uniform is one of those things you implicitly agree not to do.  The uniform and the traditions behind it are traceable back to over 250 years.  Why should we risk diluting the tradition and honor that the uniform represents over this?

Its really something I believe the military must take a stand on.  There can be no comprise on how we conduct ourselves in uniform, or how we treat the uniform.  It's a slippery slope.   

[Keunert]

aside from the uniform issue: over here breastfeeding has become the only way to go if it's possible.
it is considered the by far healthiest way to feed a baby, both physical and psychological.
and by now it is done by mothers in the public: parcs, restaurants and other places.

what is the situation in the US and Canada?

[son_of_montfort]

First off, I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. In fact, many states make it perfectly legal to do so, even in restaurants. This is something done all over the world and it is far more of a "controversy" in America than it is in many places. I don't think that most women are quite so forward about it as this pic and the Time magazine cover, and many women put a cloth or cover over themselves. But, to me, it isn't a big deal

So that's where I stand on that.

As to breastfeeding in uniform, I don't know. I don't know the regulations faced by military personnel regarding uniform decorum. If they are told not to - then they shouldn't do it. Given my ignorance on the subject, I don't think it is fair or right to pontificate on it.

I will say that this photo looks like a personal photo taken for the families. I don't know why they did it that way, or how it went viral, but there it is. I also don't know what the regulation is on taking personal-use photos in your uniform.

Now... here is my BIG caveat. If we hardline on women breastfeeding, then we need to make sure men get the same restriction as well. Is this over the line?


The quoted part did say something about restrictions against holding children in uniform (sorry if anyone knows that guy, just a Google search).

What about this?


What I mean to say is this: if there is a rule about respect of the uniform, then it needs to be established what is respectful and what is not and - if breastfeeding is NOT considered respectful - there needs to be a good reason for that given and enforced.

Just my $0.02.

[Jarhead0331]

Forget about the regulations for a second.  It's common sense.  If it doesn't seem respectful, than it probably isn't.  And yes, a soldier's sense of what is and isn't respectful, is most likely different than a civilians.  So don't bother digging up photos of guys holding babies and kittens, I really don't see the comparison.  When breastfeeding, a woman is disrobing a part of the uniform and exposing herself.  If you don't see the difference between that, and a guy holding a cat, then you're probably never going to understand the argument I'm making.

[Centurion40]

1.  I totally agree with JH on this.

2.  Then again, they are USAF, so that's BARELY a uniform to begin with  ;).

3. I wonder how McDonald's feels about their working moms breast feeding whilst in uniform?

[son_of_montfort]

Forget about the regulations for a second.  It's common sense.  If it doesn't seem respectful, than it probably isn't.  And yes, a soldier's sense of what is and isn't respectful, is most likely different than a civilians.  So don't bother digging up photos of guys holding babies and kittens, I really don't see the comparison.  When breastfeeding, a woman is disrobing a part of the uniform and exposing herself.  If you don't see the difference between that, and a guy holding a cat, then you're probably never going to understand the argument I'm making.

As I said, I don't see anything wrong or disrespectful about breastfeeding. In fact, it is one of the most normal and humanizing acts. I thought that your argument stemmed from if this was a proper thing regulation-wise, and you cited that you didn't even like to be at home alone in your uniform because you were either on duty and in a uniform or off duty and out of one. So I guess I misunderstood your point - I thought you disagreed because these women are doing an off-duty action while in an on-duty state of dress?

I can also see the argument that you don't want women breastfeeding in uniform because, when in uniform you want them to be a soldier above all else, even a mother. But if that is the case, I think that should be applied to men holding kittens and babies too (and the OP you quoted specifically brought up holding children in uniform, which is why I picked that).

But if you are arguing they shouldn't be breastfeeding in uniform because breastfeeding in public is an inflammatory act, then I disagree.

Remember, I said if this was a rule about being respectful or not, then WHY it is not respectful should be established. I don't buy the "a person in the military and a civilian have different definitions of respectful" argument.

Please don't think I'm trying to yank a chain here. I just would say, to ease tension, I've seen more boob in uniform in the Military Babes thread than in the above picture and I would consider those more disrespectful of the uniform than displaying that soldiers are mothers too. Frankly, I'm comforted by the fact that I know we have Americans who sacrifice in their roles as mothers to protect me. So I actually see this picture as an affirmation that our military have lives like civvies, but put them on the line for our benefit. Does that make sense?

3. I wonder how McDonald's feels about their working moms breast feeding whilst in uniform?

Given that they got in big trouble in Arizona for kicking out a patron who was breastfeeding, I'm going to guess they approach this very carefully. Given they only get short breaks, however, I'm not sure it is feasible.

[son_of_montfort]

I just read this:

Now, pictures of two Air Force mothers breastfeeding in uniform are adding another layer to the conversation. Terran Echegoyen-McCabe and Christina Luna were just posing for a series of photos commemorating Breastfeeding Awareness Month, but the image of the two women, with their fatigues unbuttoned and shirts hiked up, has moms and military members buzzing.

Now I agree. What Brant said on the subject was correct. They were clearly pushing an agenda. Even if I agree with the agenda, it is military policy to not do so in uniform (for very good reason).

So, even though the breastfeeding in uniform doesn't bother me, the above does, exactly as Mirth said.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I really don't give a crap either way.  Breastfeed all you want, but a park bench seems a little inappropriate to do it without an apron/cover whether you're in uniform or not.

Reality is babies' gotta eat, and mama's gonna feed.  The clothing in which it happens doesn't matter to me.  To me there is a clear difference here between PDAs and feeding.  One is a physical necessity, the other not so much.  However, there is some decorum that can be observed regardless of what clothing is being worn.

That said, I *do* have an issue with taking what appears to be a public policy stand while in uniform, which starts to stray too close to the issues of maintaining separation between personal opinions/preferences, and straying too close to giving the appearance of endorsing policy from the uniform.  Attending a pro-breastfeeding rally in uniform should be treated the same as attending a pro-speed limits rally in uniform, or an anti-abortion rally in uniform, or a political meeting in uniform - that shouldn't happen, and this starts to get dangerously close to that line.

Excellent.

[bayonetbrant]

Seems like the WAANG is pretty well in line with my last point above

http://www.stripes.com/news/military-moms-in-breast-feeding-photos-say-they-ve-been-silenced-by-superiors-1.179249

Capt. Keith Kosik, state public affairs officer for the Washington National Guard, could not confirm whether the women's chain of command ordered them to stop doing interviews but said it is a possibility and confirmed that superior officers have been in contact with the women.
"Their military service is connected to what's going on right now," he said. "That's why we do have some jurisdiction there."
Kosik emphasized that the issue is not about breast-feeding in uniform.
Rather, he said, military regulations prohibit the use of the "uniform, title, rank or military affiliation to further a cause, promote a product or imply an endorsement."
"If you look at the press coverage that's out there right now, it has been misconstrued as a battle against breast-feeding," he said Thursday. "It leads one to believe they are being persecuted for breast-feeding. The fact is they're not being persecuted. The fact is breast-feeding was never an issue for us."
The military has no rules specifically regarding public breast-feeding while in uniform. The real issue is that servicemen and -women are not allowed to use the uniform to further a civilian cause, Kosik said.

[son_of_montfort]

Brant, Totally not trying to bait or anything, just actually curious -

What would be the military's stance on use of a uniformed soldier to commemorate Black History Month, Jewish History Month, Breast Cancer Awareness Month or any other month like that?

I'm putting the state of that picture aside in that question, because the military rep said fairly clearly it was not the breastfeeding that was the issue.

[Smuckatelli]

In uniform, on duty. You are no longer a mother, father, sister, or brother. The service isn't for the convienance of the individual, leave is an option. Carrying civilian clothes is recommended. This is a BS political statement that has no place in the military. If you don't like the rules, don' t enlist

[Bison]

Frankly if a man or a woman in service is unable to provide child care during the duty day either with a spouse, family member or day care; it's grounds for discharge due to family care plan issues.  It's the way it need to be as Smuck has alluded too.  Service is not an individual first 9-5 job.

[bayonetbrant]

Brant, Totally not trying to bait or anything, just actually curious -

What would be the military's stance on use of a uniformed soldier to commemorate Black History Month, Jewish History Month, Breast Cancer Awareness Month or any other month like that?

I'm putting the state of that picture aside in that question, because the military rep said fairly clearly it was not the breastfeeding that was the issue.

it's still not supposed to happen.  I won't tell you it doesn't (which is a double standard) but when it does it's much more sanctioned from the top-down.  If an individual soldier took the initiative to do it, someone would take issue with it.

[Jarhead0331]

I knew the Grunts in the room would agree.

[Smuckatelli]

SoM, regarding the pictures that you posted: There is a very good chance that those Soldiers may work in a hospital and or an animal hospital. Look at my Journey Through Childhood Cancer, there is a picture of Tomas getting one of his spinal taps, the doctors are in uniform......'cept Maj Edwards, he always removed his blouse before doing the tap.