And the current Islamic terrorist attack is...

[Staggerwing]

Shouldn't any place where so many innocent people died be a 'Sacred Space'?

[Marty Ward]

My bad. Islamic culture isn't misogynistic nor has it any violent trends.

You're right, they are horrible people and should be quarantined from the rest of humanity. Any idea where we can stash 1 billion people?

[Ubercat]

My bad. Islamic culture isn't misogynistic nor has it any violent trends.

You're right, they are horrible people and should be quarantined from the rest of humanity. Any idea where we can stash 1 billion people?

That's all you have to say? Really?

Here's a link to what I hope you would consider a somewhat unbiased source. Germany toughens rape law after Cologne mob assaults. The article isn't as specific as the last one I linked but does state

"Chancellor Angela Merkel's cabinet signed off on the measures in March after the attacks in Cologne, where more than 1,000 women reported sexual assaults and robberies on New Year's Eve. These were blamed largely on Arab and North African men".

There are even some pics of Germans protesting the rapes and other sexual assaults. "Sexual harassment against women will NOT be tolerated." Evil racist Germans. They always want to bring back Hitler.  ::)

I'll ask again. In your opinion, how many "confirmations" would there have to be before anyone should acknowledge a problem? I'll go further. If there's a problem (Is there any circumstance in which you would admit that there is one?) what solution would you suggest? "There's a billion Muslims so just let them rape and blow people up."?

No, I'm not advocating concentration camps and genocide. People should at least search for solutions, though. Do you have any ideas, other than just taking potshots at anyone who brings the subject up?

[Marty Ward]

That's all you have to say? Really?

I'm agreeing with you. Do I need to say more?

Keep them away from our countries as the kill and destroy society. Isn't that what you want?

[undercovergeek]

That's all you have to say? Really?

I'm agreeing with you.

Isn't that what you want?

if you agree shouldnt that be what WE want?

[Ubercat]

That's all you have to say? Really?

I'm agreeing with you. Do I need to say more?

No, I don't think you do agree. And yes, I'd like very much to hear you say more. You clearly have no answer, but have an issue with anyone trying to find one. That's fascinating to me.

Keep them away from our countries as the kill and destroy society. Isn't that what you want?

If they're going to "immigrate" to western countries and then turn around and abuse their generous hosts for not being like them, then yes, quotas should probably be curtailed sharply (We can stash them where they already were). BTW, quotas DO already exist as individual countries only accept so many in a given span of time. I'm not just making up some racist concept. The alternative to quotas is completely open borders. Take them all in and let the chips fall wherever.

So, what's your take Marty? Anything constructive to say?

[Marty Ward]

That's all you have to say? Really?

I'm agreeing with you.

Isn't that what you want?

if you agree shouldnt that be what WE want?

No. It's only what I want! :)

[Marty Ward]

No, I don't think you do agree. And yes, I'd like very much to hear you say more. You clearly have no answer, but have an issue with anyone trying to find one. That's fascinating to me.

Keep them away from our countries as the kill and destroy society. Isn't that what you want?

If they're going to "immigrate" to western countries and then turn around and abuse their generous hosts for not being like them, then yes, quotas should probably be curtailed sharply (We can stash them where they already were). BTW, quotas DO already exist as individual countries only accept so many in a given span of time. I'm not just making up some racist concept. The alternative to quotas is completely open borders. Take them all in and let the chips fall wherever.

So, what's your take Marty? Anything constructive to say?

My take is saying something like muslims kill, which was the only thing I commented on, is stupid.

I don't have a problem with limiting, or even temporarily stopping them from coming in, immigrants from certain countries.

[JasonPratt]

Shouldn't any place where so many innocent people died be a 'Sacred Space'?

I expect she's going to market that as being a sacred space for other purposes. But I'm fuzzy on places where people have died, innocent or not, being thereby sacred. The sacredness should depend on who the people were and their intentions and why they died.

Still, it's a common human feeling to make shrines of a vague but palpable sacredness where people died who shouldn't have. The problem may be my lack of empathy generally.  :-[

[MikeGER]

meanwhile in Germany

while the media still try to downplay it as an 'amok' run, and questioning the deadly police force, and repeating and reapting he was only 17.

information popping up:
the IS video you see in the media is authentic, its actually him!
his Pashtun dialect is uncommon for Stan and is better fitting to Pakistan.... so "refugee" lied about his origin to get refugee-status granted.
if he was really 17 is now up to the forensic specialists.

the uneasy truths for the political correctness people and Merkel's refugees-welcome cheering crowd is now:
either he was a sleeper from the entry and this has gone totally unnoticed. 
or he self-radicalized very slowly on the inside and this has gone unnoticed.
or even so the fellow had everything a young refugee could dream of, a foster family, trained with the local sports team, and about to start an apprenticeship to become a baker ... he selfradicalized in just a few days (after he learned from the death of a close friend in Stan a week ago) , digital enlisted in the IS, uploaded his manifesto to them, and went on his mission.
...and it looks atm like the later.

that would be the original precedent that any very calm and seems to be easy going on religion Muslim immigrant around you who you have granted to let into the country, who is rated friendly and mental stable by his surroundings, peers and caretaker today can transfrom into a monster in a week, if just the right pin gets pulled in his head by some event and some fitting propaganda.
 

[Dammit Carl!]

Geez.  Shit is going to get mighty damn tense in the EU before it gets any better (by my pessimistic guess). 

Stay safe EU grogs.

[panzerde]

that would be the original precedent that any very calm and seems to be easy going on religion Muslim immigrant around you who you have granted to let into the country, who is rated friendly and mental stable by his surroundings, peers and caretaker today can transfrom into a monster in a week, if just the right pin gets pulled in his head by some event and some fitting propaganda.

First off, let me express my disgust for what this young man did, and my concern and best wishes for those that were harmed. Regardless of his age or how he ended up on mass transit with an ax and a knife, I can't see how the police really had any choice aside from using deadly force.

Having said that, it makes no more sense to blame all Muslims for terrorism than it makes sense to accuse all Catholic priests of being pedophiles. Or, for that matter to accuse all Catholics of encouraging pedophilia since they show deference to the Church, and the Church obviously recruits, employs, shelters and covers up for pedophiles. Or that all Serbs during the Balkan Wars were genocidal. Or that all Irish Protestants were murderers because some Orange Order thugs killed their Catholic neighbors during the Troubles. Or that all whites hate blacks because of police shootings in the US, or that all blacks hate whites because of the cop killings in the past couple of months.

Taking that stance is intellectually lazy at best. At worst, well, I think we all know what it is, and I think we know what it leads to. It sure as hell isn't solving any problems.

BUT...it's equally irrational to be willing to accept anything, any behavior, any transgression of your cultural norms and beliefs, any inability to compromise or learn to fit into a host society, in the name of some vaguely defined "tolerance." It's absurd to accept a flood of guest workers and refugees into your country and then try and settle them into neighborhoods already under serious economic stress and not acknowledge that this isn't going to be good for your own citizens  - regardless of how bad the conditions are in the immigrant's country of origin. It is patently obvious to anyone that spends a minute thinking about it that not every part of every culture is good. Any culture that engages in things like honor killings or female circumcision or  sees women as chattel has some serious problems and is incompatible with a Western society if those values are maintained.

It's ludicrous to to ask your own people to run some risk of being injured or killed in terror attacks by people who come from cultures that don't share your values and beliefs and are crazy enough to do something horrible but can't be separated from the much larger group of people who wouldn't because you don't want to take the time to put the controls in place. Just letting anyone into your country as a means of avoiding a repeat of the past or "atoning for your sins" just isn't going to turn out well.

If we want to reduce and hopefully stop this nonsense, we have to get past the idea that the only way to avoid a repeat of the horrors of the 20th Century is to be universally tolerant and that unconstrained diversity is an unalloyed good, no matter what. We have to stop the sort of woolly-headed Western guilt thinking that says America and Europe are responsible for all that is bad in the world, and we have to "make up for that." There are precious few nations or cultures that haven't contributed to the evils of the world, and any culture or nation-state large and powerful enough to be a force for great good is also going to have done things that weren't so great. People are flawed. Get over it.

The danger, however, is the sort of sloppy, biased thinking that leads to all out nationalism, populist leaders, political violence, and anti-intellectualism becomes dominant and we're right back to where we were. Deciding entire that populations, ethnic groups, political affiliations, or religions are "the enemy" always ends in a bad place. We know here in the West that this is a bad thing to do. We have a thousand years of religious wars and pogroms and persecution that proves it. We can be smart enough to not do it all again without needing to be doormats.

It turns out this stuff is hard. It isn't easy to decide that there needs to be a marked slow down or even stop to accepting refugees from places like Syria and Iraq for awhile when you know that doing so is going to cause suffering and death. Because it will. Doing that is going to mean that some helpless person, some little kid who never hurt anyone in their lives is going to go hungry, or be enslaved or be killed. Conversely, not doing it increases the chances of dead kids laying crushed under the wheels of a truck in Nice on Bastille Day. It's not an acceptable trade off.

No person or group of people or even government can be responsible for everyone. We can be responsible to those in our own families and communities and nations. We can have empathy for those in other places far away that are suffering. But it's not rational to make decisions, either individually or nationally that result in serious negatives for the people you are charged with responsibility to just to satisfy some ideology. It's also not rational to decide that an entire religion made up of a billion people are all terrorists.

This entire situation took hundreds of years to get this way. It is not going to be simple or easy to resolve. If anyone understands that, it should be people who frequent this forum. We are the ones that have actually taken the time to study the history, the ones that know how we got here. We know, or at least have studied, what happens when things get out of control and when people who let their emotions and bigotry rule end up in power - regardless of which end of the political spectrum they hail from.

If anyplace should be a refuge of intelligent discussion about this issue then it should be here. I'm not suggesting that the members of this forum are the ones that are going to solve this issue. I do think that the members of this forum can be a part of a voice of reason that helps a more sophisticated conversation about this issue emerge than we are getting out of our pundits and political leaders.

[undercovergeek]

do you not think the foundations for reasoned discussion are eroded with every axe attack on a train, every child underneath the wheels of a lorry, every wife and mother groped and abused whilst out shopping?

im in the UK, my daughter is safe my parents are safe but im not sure how id feel about reasoned discussion and intelligent progress if i get the knock on the door explaining another muslim with an agenda has decided its my families turn to be in the news - theres a lot of anger everywhere, and like Ubercat said, its easy to poke fun at those demanding extreme justice, but what does anyone else suggest - because multiculturism is so far down the toilet its not going to be about sitting around a table discussing who everyone can be appeased

[panzerde]

I don't think I once suggested reasoned discussion with anyone outside of one's own country and culture. My appeal isn't one of multiculturalism. Sadly, you apparently completely skipped over the parts where I clearly stated that the current situation in Europe is unacceptable and unworkable, and that those who call for unrestrained immigration and acceptance of refugees are wrong. You skipped the bit where I specifically said that no government should decide to allow wholesale immigration from places where there are obvious cultural incompatibilities.

So, the reasoned discussion isn't about how the West just keeps on doing what it's doing, it's about how we manage to stay a civilized, rational group of countries that avoids going back down the ultra-nationalist rat hole, while taking a rational approach to helping out around the world when we can afford to. I'd suggest it's in no one's interest to decide on the easy solution of just deciding that a billion people of any religion or ethnic group are all bad people.

[undercovergeek]

I suspect as long as we in the west harbour fantasies of reasoned discussion with the extremists in their society and they teach their children to kill us at all costs we'll always be the side wringing our hands and crying round candles at random spots across Europe