E:D Horizons v.2.1 - where things stand now

[sandman2575]

Hoping some Elite vets might chime in here --

As I mentioned in the NMS thread (and thought I should take the conversation to a different thread) -- I'm getting back into E:D after months away. And hoo boy, things have changed.

Not just the obvious changes introduced by Horizons, but the way to approach the game. I'm kinda stumped.

So, I vaguely knew that the NPC combat has improved... and last night, discovered what that really means the hard way.  Months ago, I'd think nothing of heading over to a Res. Extraction zone and sit back waiting for wanted Pythons to appear and gun 'em down, even in a modestly outfitted Viper. So last night I head over to a 'low' intensity Res.Ext. zone in my modestly outfitted Cobra III. An Imperial clipper warps in. I scan. Wanted. "Eh, why not?" I think. Big mistake. Thing wiped the floor with me in under 5 minutes.

Had the credits to cover insurance, but had to shell out 300K+ to reclaim my Cobra, giving me a little over 1M credits to my name. Not a lot.

So now I understand. The days of bounty hunting NPCs for fun and profit are over. So... what to do? 

My Cobra has meager cargo space, esp. after installing the SRV (which is very cool, btw). So a life of hauling commodities from one station to another seems out of the question -- it would take me forever to build up my bank account this way. Running courier missions from the Bulletin Board? An option, though few of them pay well, and the ones that do involve serious combat risk that I've learned I should now fear.

Not necessarily looking for a 'get rich quick' scheme, just uncertain how to proceed after investing in a Cobra that's better suited to combat than anything else, but really can't hold its own in 2.1 against pretty mundane NPCs.....   

Ideas welcome !

[SirAndrewD]

The new AI is very, very solid, but there are ways to deal with it. 

I still primarily bounty hunt and while I occasionally have to cut and run I can still farm a Hi Res or Combat zone for millions. 

Trick is to watch, VERY closely the skill level of your target.  Master and above are much more effective combatants, and will hit chaff on a 10 sec timer, and will pop unlimited SCBs when down to one ring.  Ships below this level will be less effective.   If you hit anything competent or below, you should be able to wax it easily. 

Don't go to Haz Res zones without a wingman unless you're ready for a very long grind.  You did right going to a low intensity, as they'll have a lot of police response.  You might want to wait for a bad guy to actually have some security on him before you jump in, as this will get you an advantage. 

Also, the game is very much balanced now to deeply and fully reward players who use Engineers.  An A rated ship in pre-Engineers is equivalent to a C rated ship today if it doesn't have upgrades.    Once you get a good boost to thrusters and some weapons mods, the NPCs will go down much more easily. 

Finally, the game is really really gearing towards winging up with PC's.  Having someone on your wing helps bounty hunting immensely.  This is why I sit on Mobius PvE.

I haven't died to an NPC with the new A.I. yet, and that's not saying I'm particularly great or you need to "get gud".  I'm just saying, profitable bounty hunting CAN be done in the new system, and even solo.  It just requires a lot of adjustment.

If you're looking for money though, a Cobra is great for smuggling as it can land on platforms, and smuggling payouts are VERY good.   

Also, Rare trading is just as profitable as it has ever been.

[mikeck]

Had the exact same thing happen to me when I started playing again last week after taking about 8 months off. I had been bounty hunting and trading in my modestly equipped Asp explorer. Went to a high-risk extraction zone and proceeded to get destroyed by a federal drop ship. Used the insurance and headed back out. Same thing only I got plugged by a Vulture. So I repurchase everything and I'm down to $400,000. Insurance was like $350,000. So, I decided to sell my asp and all the parts (about $9 mil total) and bought a Cobra Mk3. Used all that extra cash to buy grade "A" shields, reactor, power distributor and hull plating. Bought some decent weapons and went back out. If nothing but success.

My pimped Cobra is worth about 6 million. I have 4.5 million in cash. Once I get another 500k, I'm going to repurchase that asp and put better stuff on it.

Here is the key: DONT give up bounty hunting!! Just be smarter. My Cobra is pretty bad-assed. Two class 2d gimballed multi cannons and 2 class 1E gimballed Beam lasers. Not great BUT my shields and such I mentioned above AND THRUSTERS are grade "A". That means if I am in trouble, I put all the pips in "engine" and boost my way out of it. So make sure you fly a relatively fast ship (doesn't need to be THE fastest...but decent) and get really good shields, thrusters, reactor and power distributors for it. Better to have a cheaper ship pimped out than a bigger one with "meh" equipment

Most important: don't pick fights with Pythons! Seriously. In my cobra I will ONLY tangle 1v1 with sidewinders, Eagles, Cobras, Asps, Diamondbacks, adders and the like. I stay away from the big boys like the Python and anaconda. I also don't mess with the fighters that just out maneuver the hell out of you: Vipers and vultures.

I will attack any ship however if at least 1-2 federal ships are engaged. So pick the fights with ships you know you can beat. Other than that, get behind him and follow until the Feds show up. Once they do, light him up.  That's if you still want to bounty hunt which is a great money maker.

Of course, trade is still the same. Missions are possible but i guess you need enough rep with a faction. You can also play mercenary and sign on with a faction.
Head to a war zone and help out.

Tons to do but yeah, the days of taking out a python in your viper are over. So stop trying that...but don't stop hunting. Just pick weaker prey

[sandman2575]

Really appreciate the detailed feedback and advice, fellas -- thanks!

Just wrapped up a couple of hours of play tonight, though before reading these great posts. Basically ran a bunch of courier and cargo missions, after swapping out some reinforced hull protection for more cargo (from 20 to 32) so I could haul more, esp. after thinking I wouldn't be fighting too much.

Did get interdicted at one point. Not even sure what it was that caught me... dropship maybe? Either way, it started shredding me and I was lucky to escape. I can't believe how much harder NPC combat has become !!!  I'm genuinely nervous about getting interdicted now.

Still, combat is fun and I don't want to give it up entirely in favor of hauling. So I'll be using these tips to see if I can't get back in the shootin' saddle.

[SirAndrewD]

No problem Sandman. 

Also worth noting, while a Cobra is a fine fine ship, it's not a pure combat ship.  With the new AI, you really need to bounty hunt in ships that are bred for combat. 

One of the cool things about 2.1 is that small vessels, like the Viper and Eagle, were boosted in their maneuverability comparative to medium and above frames.   I think you'll find bounty hunting in a Viper superior to a Cobra right now, with a lot less risk on the rebuy if you get aced. 

I tried to hunt in my A-Rated "Combat" Python early on after the 2.1 launch, and barely got it back to the station with 13% left on my canopy after killing ONE deadly Anaconda. 

Since then the Python is doing what it is supposed to do, multi-role with an emphasis towards armed trading/smuggling.   My Fer de Lance and Vulture are the only ships I'm taking into combat and the only two I'm A-Rating with Engineer mods.

[mikeck]

I agree that the Cobra isn't the BEST ship for combat only (bounty hunting), but I think it is ONE of the best in its price group. Excluding the big boys like the Python and Anaconda, the Cobra only falls to the Vulture and Viper in combat skills I think. I find it underrated. It can carry stronger shields and hull improvements than a lot of more maneuverable ships, doesn't overheat with weapon fire, has 4 hard points and -most importantly- has a faster "boost speed" than any other ship. Equipped properly, you can dictate any engagement. If you feel things aren't going well, boost out of there.

It cannot turn with Diamondbacks, Eagles, sidewinders and Vipers but will shred any of them except the viper as the others cannot take the punishment. You just have to learn some maneuverea other than just turning. Putting 4 pips in "engine" while maneuvering and then balancing when your behind him works well. So does stopping mid turn, full reversing and pitching the nose in the direction of the turn.

Of course, it's also a good ship because you CAN trade with it for a break.

If you just want to Bounty hunt, i would use a viper until you can get a vulture or something. For what you are doing though (trading and fighting) I think the Cobra is best

[sandman2575]

One thing I did do last night was fly back to the system where I had my Viper stowed away. Had kind of figured I was done with the ol' bird, but based on comments here that may have been overhasty. I think I will take it for a spin in a 'Low intensity' resource extraction area tonight, following these good tips. Waiting for police ships to get involved, paying close attention to the rankings of the ships I scan, not just whether they have bounties on them or not.

I've been thinking a bit about why E:D has a mixed reputation, at least in the Steam universe (for what that's worth). The "mile wide but inch deep" criticism is pretty widespread, and I've been as guilty as anyone in thinking sometimes that the game is sophisticated but shallow. But getting back into E:D that past couple of nights has really changed my view. The game's not shallow. It's incredibly complex. It's so complex, in fact, that it takes a *long* time to realize just how complex it is! 

E:D is like the perfect "man I bounced off that so hard" game. It does very little hand-holding for new players. It expects you to do the work of figuring out how its many systems work and interact. It's so *not* a game "you can just jump into", and I think lots of folks don't realize that going in, or don't appreciate just how steep the learning curve is. The curve to do the most basic stuff isn't all that steep, of course. But to do the really interesting things -- the things that make the game come alive -- you've got to be willing to invest the time to learn it. I have over 70 hours in the game now (obviously not a huge amount, but frankly a lot more than I have in most of my Steam games!), and I'm only just beginning to figure out things about politics and factions and reputation, and why that stuff matters. And that's to say nothing of Power Play, which I still find pretty baffling, although intriguing as well.

Anyway, preaching to the choir here.  In short, I think E:D kind of fools the unwary (myself included) into thinking you've 'figured the game out' after a couple of hours invested, when in fact, you've only just scratched the surface.

[SirAndrewD]

Heartily agreed on the criticisms of Elite's depth.  It's only an inch deep if you only dig that far.  It's just with Elite you're not digging in soft sand so you have to work at it.

Also worth noting in regards to combat, in high security systems police response times are MUCH higher than they used to be.  Considering that you can collect data for engineers by scanning ships, it does sometimes pay to just hang around in supercruise, scan ships for wanted status and interdict the bad guys.  Even if it's a high level opponent, the cops are going to show up to help out within, usually, seconds. 

I also agree that the Cobra is the best ship for its price point.  In fact, it may be the best overall ship in the game just from its pure utility to cost.  I just prefer other frames to fighting, mostly because of the Cobra's hard point placement and lack of turning power compared to other ships.  But, it's very much correct that it's the best for combo trading/fighting, at least until you upgrade to the much more expensive ships like the Asp or Python, and arguments can even be made that the Cobra has some distinct advantages over those ships too. 

Right now the only ships I'd want to stay away from personally are the pure traders.  Being able to get out of trouble fast is sort of the gold standard right now if you've got cargo. 

[Kushan]

All my experience with combat in the Cobra is before the latest AI overhaul. Not really going to add much to what others have already suggested and I'm generally crap at combat but some things that generally work for me:

1: Don't get into a turning fight. As Mikeck pointed out, when other ships (especial fighters) try to start a turning fight, put 4 pips into engines and boost out, then turn back, re-balance your systems and reengage.

2: If your in a normal or low intensity resource extraction zone, don't go for a fair fight. Use the system security forces and other AI ships to your advantage. I've been able to take down plenty of Pythons, Anacondas, Imperial Clippers, etc by attacking whatever the system security forces are going after or by attacking then running to a nearby patrol group.

I probably have 60-80 hours into Elite and I've still barely scratched the surface. I know a lot of people bounce off of it because it doesn't hold your hand and you have to make your own fun to some extent, but I like that it does those things. I'm really enjoying just cruising the unexplored void in my Asp Explorer. No one told me to do that, I just got curious what was out there to see and set off. Hope I can be back in explored space to take my own Cobra out of storage for the upcoming Federation/Empire war, and the rumored alien invasion.

[mikeck]

Just took my last two "combat tours" in a high intensity mining zone to make some money. Want to repurchase my Asp with better gear. Took out my pimped Cobra.

In one trip I made over $900,000. 235k off an Anaconda, 180k from another Anaconda and 130k from a python. Then 6-7 kills from 20k to 100k. I just picked off big targets. Here is the trick as I discussed above:

Find an Anaconda or Python that is "wanted". Follow it until the federal police arrive and those police start engaging. Keep close until the police knock out the shields and get the Hull to 30% or so. Then start firing. As long as you start hitting him before he dies, you get the cash. That way, I'm sneaking the kill without taking fire. I think it's kind of an exploit but I needed the cash quick. After 2 runs I had made about $1.5 million. Runs lasted until i ran out of ammo or I got close to $600k

[CptHowdy]

joystick needed? i have X3-albion prelude or could even resub to eve online. does elite dangerous offer anything more, do things better etc... thanks for any opinions.

[mikeck]

Oh yes...well, if you consider a galaxy of 400,000,000 stars that can each be visited along with the actual planets (if any were detected around the star in reality) modeled as best as possible "offering more."  A ton of modifications for whatever ship you choose; from power plants and shields to cargo and scanners make that part better than X3. Also, the flight modeling in Elite is superb. Models down to heat radiation issues requiring heat sinks and overheating in combat

Additionally, in elite you can "be" whatever you want. You aren't limited to trading/buying stations to make money. You can make a ton trading, exploring (and selling the info), bounty hunting, smuggling, pirating or being a mercenary. Smuggling is a blast with "run silent" mode

Also, you can either play in open mode or "solo" mode. The former puts you in a galaxy with all the other humans playing. The latter puts you in the same galaxy with the same factions, prices, etc but without all the other humans. Best part? You can switch back and forth at will. Spend time in solo mode building money to get that pimped out Viper, then switch to Open mode and have at it.

Elite is simply a MUCH bigger game. With 400 million stars, players in the MMO servers has only visited something like 20% of them.

[CptHowdy]

Oh yes...well, if you consider a galaxy of 400,000,000 stars that can each be visited along with the actual planets (if any were detected around the star in reality) modeled as best as possible "offering more."  A ton of modifications for whatever ship you choose; from power plants and shields to cargo and scanners make that part better than X3. Also, the flight modeling in Elite is superb. Models down to heat radiation issues requiring heat sinks and overheating in combat

Additionally, in elite you can "be" whatever you want. You aren't limited to trading/buying stations to make money. You can make a ton trading, exploring (and selling the info), bounty hunting, smuggling, pirating or being a mercenary. Smuggling is a blast with "run silent" mode

Also, you can either play in open mode or "solo" mode. The former puts you in a galaxy with all the other humans playing. The latter puts you in the same galaxy with the same factions, prices, etc but without all the other humans. Best part? You can switch back and forth at will. Spend time in solo mode building money to get that pimped out Viper, then switch to Open mode and have at it.

Elite is simply a MUCH bigger game. With 400 million stars, players in the MMO servers has only visited something like 20% of them.

very cool. is there a grogheads group on the open server or is everyone flying in solo mode?

[sandman2575]

Elite is simply a MUCH bigger game. With 400 million stars, players in the MMO servers has only visited something like 20% of them.

No matter how many times I look at the galaxy map in E:D, I'm still amazed. First at the huge size of the part of the galaxy that's inhabited by different factions (the bubble), and then by the realization that's it's only a small fraction of the entire galaxy.  It's truly astonishing.

Agree w/ mikeck:  flight-stick is mandatory. At least, I can't imagine playing without one, or without TrackIR for that matter.

[CptHowdy]

Elite is simply a MUCH bigger game. With 400 million stars, players in the MMO servers has only visited something like 20% of them.

No matter how many times I look at the galaxy map in E:D, I'm still amazed. First at the huge size of the part of the galaxy that's inhabited by different factions (the bubble), and then by the realization that's it's only a small fraction of the entire galaxy.  It's truly astonishing.

Agree w/ mikeck:  flight-stick is mandatory. At least, I can't imagine playing without one, or without TrackIR for that matter.

is the game world too big? i assume there is PvP correct? most systems active or can you find your own "corner" of the universe and never meet another player?