Cold Waters

[Pete Dero]

[Swatter]

I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10?  :pullhair:

[JudgeDredd]

It didn't really help me much either - though it was interesting.

There's not really an awful lot of point to those figures (from a gaming perspective) when there's no reference table to help us know the detection rates per platform. For example I think he mentioned a Udaloy could detect you at -25 to -15 or something. But there's no reference for me (as a gamer) to say what the detection rate of a Udaloy is. So had he not told me, I'd be looking at a minus figure being me all invisible and shit when in actuality, a Udaloy knows pretty much exactly where I am.

So I'd like to see those figures go from say blue (not a very good detection rate for the platform) to red (a very goo detection rate).

[jomni]

I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10?  :pullhair:

Isn't the 10 spotting you already?
Just keep the contact signal less than 10 as much as you can.
The numbers already take the platform's capabilities into consideration... If the other you tuber (the one I posted) is correct.

[JudgeDredd]

I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10?  :pullhair:

Isn't the 10 spotting you already?
Just keep the contact signal less than 10 as much as you can.
The numbers already take the platform's capabilities into consideration... If the other you tuber (the one I posted) is correct.

Yeah but according to his video, a Udaloy will pretty much be sending a torpedo down your spout with those figures in minus.

It was interesting, but not overly informative. Slightly - but not overly. The game is missing a mechanic there (or at least a reference) to allow you to properly take that information and use it.

[JudgeDredd]

I had a doosey last night.

Single mission. 112dB on the surface. No layer. Couldn't hear squat. Spent about half an hour in game occasionally getting a contact. I should've fired a torp down the bearing, but I didn't. Ended up quitting being told I failed to make contact with half a dozen ships...but I couldn't think of anything else to do.

Later, I went into a fight with 3 diesel subs. Fired two torps at one. One hit the other went looking about and picked me up. I then spent about 15-20 minutes dropping noisemakers, creating knuckles (which really works!), diving, rising etc, etc just to evade MY torpedo! Those things definitely need an IFF sensor!

It didn't help that I had been picked up by air also and that had dropped a couple of torps in the water.

I was busy avoiding for quite some time. But the evasion I had read up on did me proud and I survived with 3 kills.

[Pete Dero]

I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10?  :pullhair:

This guy gave a detailed explanation on the steam forums : http://steamcommunity.com/app/541210/discussions/0/1290691937730770068/?ctp=2

Jomni already posted some of his vids and he seems to be knowing what he is doing.

First Own ship numbers: Those describe the strenght of the signature you're receiving. Negative numbers are calculated outputs. Essentially anything negative means you're receiving nothing through that channel. For instance is perfectly viable that being over the layer (and dragging the towed array under it) you receive nothing in your MF sonar (the one at your bow), yet you can hear a faint signature with your towed array (which is under the layer).

The utility of this numbers is obvious. The stronger the signal, the better your TMA over time will be. It also gives some tactical hints about the enemy before the TMA is done. If you know he's not very close, but the signal is very strong, that means the platform is being VERY noisy (which usually means it's steaming at full speed). COnversely if you know the enemy is relatively slow moving a very strong signal means it's REALLY close, and you might want to react accordingly.

Now, about the numbers for enemy platforms:

First, how are those numbers are calculated: all platforms in game have sensors. Each sensor has a specific capability. Some are more sensitive than others. All platforms in game make noise. Said noise depends on how fast they're moving and on the inherent properties of the platform, as some are more silent than others.

The numbers you see are the calculated result of your own submarine loudness at the speed is travelling vs the capabilities of the sensors aboard the enemy ship, appropiately modified by things as background noise, if you're in the opposite side of the thermal layer, the strenght of said thermal layer, general sea conditions,etc.

Keep in mind you NEED a correct ID for this to be accurate. If you class an enemy Sierra as a Whiskey and you trust you've not been detected based on the numbers you see there, chances are you're in for a nasty suprise.

Also those values apply in the zones the sensors actually cover. This is easy to check if you're behind an enemy submarine (that lacks a towed array). If you're in a 60 degree arc behind him, all his numbers will be -50 db. Which means you can go flank speed and cavitate like a maniac, and the enemy will still not hear you.
Be conscious however that you also have non-detection baffles in your own sensors. the same 60 degrees behind for the active and hull sonar, and directly forward for your towed array (as your own submarine noise will mask whatever is beyond).

Now, how do those numbers apply vs the simulation?.

-anything negative means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you, period.

-anything under two digits (0 to 10) means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you but will keep you detected if the enemy has already a fix on you.

-anything over 10 means that sensor has detected you. To completely vanish off the enemy picture you need to get all the enemy sensor values under 0 at the same time, or they'll keep you detected.


so when you're doing an approach to an enemy sub, for instance, and you see the numbers for his hull and towed array as -5 and -3 respectively, you know you can increase speed a bit and you won't be detected, for the enemy still doesn't know you're there, and the values are under 10. Then you can decrease speed as you come closer and you're closer to be detected.

couple more things:
Silent running (shift-S) is EXCEEDINGLY useful to creep and remain undetected by passive sensors. And is a noticeable decrease in detectability from 1/3 forward.

Being totally stopped in the water doesn't mean you're not getting detected. Nuclear subs of this time used, without exception (well one would be the Ohio SSBN) coolant pumps to keep the reactor going. And you can't shut down your reactor (it'd be the most stupid thing to do in any nuclear powered vessel anyway). So you're making some noise even when stopped.


Now, the active sonar. This one is particular because there's a heavy modifier to that number, because that number is the expected signal strenght the enemy sonar will get off your sub if you're full broadside on towards him. If you're end-on (bow or rear towards the enemy), that number gets divided by a modifier (not sure how much, talking to the devs they told me is a factor of 25% when fully dead on towards of from the enemy).

So for instance, the enemy has an active signal strenght of 10. You're broadside on. He will detect you if he pings.

The enemy has an active signal strenght of 20. You're totally bow on towards him, so he actually gets 25% of that. Which is 5. 5 < 10, so the enemy won't detect you if he pings.


Same obviously applies to your own active sonar vs enemy vessels, so keep that in mind if you want to open up with your active sonar.


So, as is obvious to see, those numbers are EXCEEDINGLY important because they control if the enemy detects you or not, and how close (or far) you're from shaking off being detected.

In fact I'd say those numbers are the most important single thing in the whole simulation.

[Pete Dero]

A great source of information (made for Dangerous Waters but also relevant for this game) : Landlubbers Survival Guide for Dangerous Waters

www.subguru.com/DW_missions/Notfallmappe_v06.zip

[JudgeDredd]

...
Now, how do those numbers apply vs the simulation?.

-anything negative means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you, period.

Maybe it depends on yoru definition of "detected", but that's not what he said when he was talking about the Udaloy. He said it would have you "dead to rights" around -25!

"...The Udaloy detects you at somewhere between -24 and -18"

Though I he is talking about medium frequency active there.

I should take this opportunity to say I thank him for doing the videos. I watched one previously (where he was stalking some ships" and enjoyed it). They're definitely worth a watch.

I'd like the game to give you feedback commanders actually have i.e. the detection info on the Udaloy as well as others...if they (sub commanders) know that, then the game should probably give you that knowledge

[Pete Dero]

...
Now, how do those numbers apply vs the simulation?.

-anything negative means that the sensor in question will NOT detect you, period.

Maybe it depends on yoru definition of "detected", but that's not what he said when he was talking about the Udaloy. He said it would have you "dead to rights" around -25!

To be clear : the Signature Analysis video is not from the same person as the Steam posting.  ( It seems that this video might not be 100% correct. )

These are the videos that Jomni posted before from the Steam poster.

This guy plays really well. Can learn a lot from him.

He eliminated a whole Amphibious task force and dodged a whole lot of torpedoes.
Part 1: https://youtu.be/dsObX4eqLyE
Part 2: https://youtu.be/9EPgR_JXfW4

Great tutorial on how to be stealthy.
https://youtu.be/clhxFImfH9I

[jomni]

Yes I trust Ramjb more than Jive Turkey.

[JudgeDredd]

ok. I will watch more - thanks 

[Nefaro]

I am still a little confused. Actually more than a little. He really didn't clarify very much. So the detection values range from +50 to -50. So, an active sonar at -8 is more effective than a passive sonar +10?  :pullhair:

No. 

That vid was going on incorrect information. 


People in the comments section cleared it up a bit.  Or at least they described the numbers more closely to how it's modeled in the game.



Basically.. if it goes positive, then you're cooked.  If it's in the -9 to 0 range, small & sudden changes in your noise level can get you detected.  Especially launching something, which supposedly adds +5 SNR to whatever your current noise level estimate is to the selected sonar contact.  But I think it may add as much as +10 or more; it probably depends on your range to the enemy in question.

[Nefaro]

Yes I trust Ramjb more than Jive Turkey.

Ram (pron. Rahm) is pretty experienced with sub sims, from what I've gathered in the past.  He knew some deeper details many don't.

Pretty sure he also played some SBPro MP with us, back during my short run.  Nice guy.

[JudgeDredd]

BUG ALERT!

Sunk a ship (sunk a few actually!) and one of them, the Kirov, has capsized. So I reload with 2 UGMs and launch them to take out the last ship - a Kanin - and as the break the surface and drop their booster rockets, the Kirov lets off a shite load of chaff AND starts firing that CIWS bugger at the missiles.

Needless to say, none of the missiles managed to pass the Kirov