Jerry Sandusky on trial

[Marty Ward]

When the culture of slavish loyalty to the football program is so pervasive that child rape, committed repeatedly by one of the most beloved and admired coaches, is covered up to protect the program, yes the entire program should be made to suffer.

Again, why? The players came in good faith and played with honesty and integrity. 99.9999% of the coaches were there to build a football team and to give the men who played a solid foundation to deal with life.
Sandusky, string his ass up. Paterno, rip down the statues and return the endowments if you think it needs to be done. The administrators who knew and stayed silent, screw-em.
But the thousands of kids who learned good lessons there and the hundreds of coaches who gave their all to help the players grow into responsible adults, don't tar them with the same brush. They knew nothing of what was happening.

[mirth]

When the culture of slavish loyalty to the football program is so pervasive that child rape, committed repeatedly by one of the most beloved and admired coaches, is covered up to protect the program, yes the entire program should be made to suffer.

Again, why? The players came in good faith and played with honesty and integrity. 99.9999% of the coaches were there to build a football team and to give the men who played a solid foundation to deal with life.
Sandusky, string his ass up. Paterno, rip down the statues and return the endowments if you think it needs to be done. The administrators who knew and stayed silent, screw-em.
But the thousands of kids who learned good lessons there and the hundreds of coaches who gave their all to help the players grow into responsible adults, don't tar them with the same brush. They knew nothing of what was happening.

Because  the head coach, at least one assistant coach, the school president, the AD, a senior Vice-President and others were all complicit in covering up for a coach in the football program who was raping young boys on campus, in the football facilities. The cover-up lasted for at least 14 years and the rapist was a revered figure at the school even while it was known that he was continuing to victimize children. The prestige and power of the football program was such that janitors who witnessed boys being attacked by Jerry Sandusky were afraid to speak out against him. Even now, after  the conviction of Sandusky and  the damning evidence of the Freeh report, the cult of Penn State football is so strong  that many in the Penn State community are rushing to the defense of Joe Paterno, trying to balance his protection of a child rapist against "all the good" he did.

[Marty Ward]

Because  the head coach, at least one assistant coach, the school president, the AD, a senior Vice-President and others were all complicit in covering up for a coach in the football program who was raping young boys on campus, in the football facilities. The cover-up lasted for at least 14 years and the rapist was a revered figure at the school even while it was known that he was continuing to victimize children. The prestige and power of the football program was such that janitors who witnessed boys being attacked by Jerry Sandusky were afraid to speak out against him. Even now, after  the conviction of Sandusky and  the damning evidence of the Freeh report, the cult of Penn State football is so strong  that many in the Penn State community are rushing to the defense of Joe Paterno, trying to balance his protection of a child rapist against "all the good" he did.

I am not disputing who was involved or that they should pay for that but it was not a 'football' scandal. It was a scumbag pervert who was allowed to continue to do what he did because he had powerful friends who would not speak out.
The football program had nothing to do with it.  The players didn't approve of any cover up. The coaches didn't 'approve' of the rapes. Nothing related to football had anything to do with what happened to those kids. The desire of the people in charge of running the University to 'protect' the moneymaking program is the reason Sandusky wasn't strung up years ago. Unless you have some reason to think that there is more of this crap still going on and coaches or players are involved, why would you hold them responsible for something they had nothing to do with, that occurred before the vast majority of them even got on campus?

[mirth]

The football program was Joe Paterno. The idolization of Paterno and Penn State football was so great that rather than stop a child rapist, the rapist was protected and lauded as a great man. Sandusky wouldn't have been raping little boys in the locker room showers all those years if he didn't have Joe Pa and the prestige of the football program protecting him. Further, Sandusky used his status in the football program to lure those kids in and to con the families into thinking he was some kind of hero. His success as a pedophile had a great deal to with the Penn State football program and the worshiping community built up around it.

[Gusington]

^It did, but it also had a lot to do with Second Mile. That organization should definitely be shut down.

But I still don't think that the entire Penn State program should be dismantled. Pruned, not dismantled. The 4-5 major suspects are getting what they deserve right now. Joe Pa escaped...who knows what would have happened to him if he was still alive.

Most NCAA Division I schools are similar to Penn State. They may not have the massive following but most alums would just not want to believe that something this horrific happened at their school.

My co-worker drank the Kool Aid and was a believer. Now, with all the facts out and emerging, she admittedly feels embarrassed that she could have even for a second defended something like this. I would like to think that most alums (even our own Paplan) now see the forest for the trees.

[mirth]

My co-worker drank the Kool Aid and was a believer. Now, with all the facts out and emerging, she admittedly feels embarrassed that she could have even for a second defended something like this. I would like to think that most alums (even our own Paplan) now see the forest for the trees.

I've read things and seen video from former players, coaches, etc, still trying to defend Paterno. Some of his defenders are fairly prominent in the world of sports as commentators and analysts. That disturbs me a great deal and I think says a lot about the power that football has at Penn State.

Rather than continuing a circular debate with you and Marty, I'm going to agree to disagree and step out of this discussion for now. And I will concede that as much as I think Penn State deserves the 'death penalty', it seems unlikely that the NCAA will apply it.

[Marty Ward]

The football program was Joe Paterno. The idolization of Paterno and Penn State football was so great that rather than stop a child rapist, the rapist was protected and lauded as a great man. Sandusky wouldn't have been raping little boys in the locker room showers all those years if he didn't have Joe Pa and the prestige of the football program protecting him.

This is true. And when a person in a position of power abuses that power, be they government official, business person or preacher, you don't shut down whatever they were in charge of when they are exposed.
The military has had numerous ongoing sexual assault problems, years of it from Tailhook to rapes at the military Acadamies to abuses at boot camp, that have been covered up and allowed to continue. Should we shut them down because of it or just prosecute those involved and try to make sure it stops happening?

[Marty Ward]

My co-worker drank the Kool Aid and was a believer. Now, with all the facts out and emerging, she admittedly feels embarrassed that she could have even for a second defended something like this. I would like to think that most alums (even our own Paplan) now see the forest for the trees.

I've read and seen video of a lot of former players, coaches, etc, still trying to defend Paterno. Some of his defenders are fairly prominent in the world of sports as commentators and analysts. That disturbs me a great deal and I think says a lot about the power that football has at Penn State.

Rather than continuing a circular debate with you and Marty, I'm going to agree to disagree and step out of this discussion for now. And I will concede that as much as I think Penn State deserves the 'death penalty', it seems unlikely that the NCAA will apply it.

I think they are having a hard time reconcilling what happened to the man they knew. Heck at first I didn't want to think he failed so miserably but the facts show he did.
He had more than enough chances to stop it and he didn't. He may have done a lot of good things but they don't outwiegh what he didn't do. I think his legacy deserves whatever fate history decided to place on it.

[mirth]

The football program was Joe Paterno. The idolization of Paterno and Penn State football was so great that rather than stop a child rapist, the rapist was protected and lauded as a great man. Sandusky wouldn't have been raping little boys in the locker room showers all those years if he didn't have Joe Pa and the prestige of the football program protecting him.

This is true. And when a person in a position of power abuses that power, be they government official, business person or preacher, you don't shut down whatever they were in charge of when they are exposed.
The military has had numerous ongoing sexual assault problems, years of it from Tailhook to rapes at the military Acadamies to abuses at boot camp, that have been covered up and allowed to continue. Should we shut them down because of it or just prosecute those involved and try to make sure it stops happening?

One last reply then. I think that I could find examples where specific programs within the government and military were shutdown due to improprieties or abuses. The Tailhook Scandal is actually a pretty good example. After the scandal in 1991, the Navy cut all ties with the Tailhook organization until 1999.

[Marty Ward]

One last reply then. I think that I could find examples where specific programs within the government and military were shutdown due to improprieties or abuses. The Tailhook Scandal is actually a pretty good example. After the scandal in 1991, the Navy cut all ties with the Tailhook organization until 1999.

But they didn't get rid of all their pilots or suspend all flight operations.

The Penn State football program will already suffer in recruiting, it will be a hard sell for the near future to get a top level recruit to go there. The players that are there now, particularly the seniors, had nothing to do with what Sandusky did and none of the coaches did either. I think they will get enough of a self inflicted penalty on the program. Punishing people who had nothing to do with the events doesn't seem to be right to me.

[mirth]

One last reply then. I think that I could find examples where specific programs within the government and military were shutdown due to improprieties or abuses. The Tailhook Scandal is actually a pretty good example. After the scandal in 1991, the Navy cut all ties with the Tailhook organization until 1999.

But they didn't get rid of all their pilots or suspend all flight operations.

Correct. And I'm not suggesting that the NCAA end football across the country. Just at Penn State, for a year or two.

Really, I'm out now. I do enjoy debating with you, Marty but we could go on like this forever :)

[Marty Ward]

Correct. And I'm not suggesting that the NCAA end football across the country. Just at Penn State.

Really, I'm out now. I do enjoy debating with you, Marty but we could go on like this forever :)

Cool.

[Gusington]

This debate sponsored by Gus.

[mirth]

The NY Times has a good roundtable-style debate of the NCAA/Penn State question:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/07/16/should-the-ncaa-punish-penn-state

[OJsDad]

I'll just say this.  If you're supporting the shutting down of the FB program, even for a couple of years, then the whole school should be shutdown.  This went beyond just the FB program.