Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics

[ghostryder]

I picked this up today and have put about 4 hours into it. I started a early game as the persians for the Zortarian religion and to explore their features in this DLC. I'm about 20 years in a 792 A.D. Joined The Hermetic Society- the only other choice was Satan. Here learning is your main focus and your tasked to build a lab. This is expensive but allows you to move up in ranks. Other tasks I've done is mostly searching for relics and text-with one quest for alchemy components. My wife immediately joined when i did and became my apprentice. I'm already leader now of the society. My wife graduated and i choose a new apprentice. My children are yet adults at this stage but I imagine if they were I could choose one of them.

With the society I can do a horoscope on each of my children--which helps mold them in learning to be with the stars. There's also a new tasks for conselors--and that GUI has been reworked where now you just highlight the task--the only time I had to pick a province was in fabricating claims. Otherwise they just perform their tasks without physically appearing in a province-- as far as the new tasks go anyway. Studying tech in other provinces still works the same...etc.

Other than having an apprentice and doing horoscopes I can spend points to read my future--and hold grand meetings. Now leader of the cult I can also write my Magnus Garter or whatever they called it--haven't done that yet.

Other than that gameplay is basically the same--with the added features generally buffing my learning skills. Since your much more busier doing all this the game pace slows--it's hard to accelerate time with so many pop up decisions.

I feel it's added some depth and generally I like this portion of it. But from what I've read only Satanist are fully fleshed out and are overpowered but I'm not really in the mood for that right now and i haven't came across any in this game--thus so early in I would think not. But probably will start a game up in early norway and become a raiding demon at some point.

It's really really getting based hard on the paradox forums, with a 17 page bitch thread of how awful the whole thing is. Frankly since you can turn off the demon stuff and supernatural events (2 seperate options) about the only real bitch i can see is the lack of content for any secret sect outside of demon worship. Since none can counter the warlock and witches I can agree with the point---but the rest is just haters being haters as far as I can tell.

CK2 is one of my most played and favorite games so the added depth was worth the $15 bucks to me. And the dev's response should tell the rest of the tale:


Virtually no new mechanics of any note. Nothing even remotely interesting except retreading monastic ground which they've already covered in a past expansion. There's so much more interesting ground that they haven't touched on, which could've been tackled.

A bunch've horrible, supernatural events, like they think they're making a Game of Thrones mod or something and completely departing from even the pretense of historical realism.

Overpriced at that, for what basically amounts to a bunch've lame events.

CK2 did not need to add magic. What it needs is something like, I don't know. Naval warfare? It's amazing to think that I beta tested this game, years and years ago, and remained active doing so through the first 5-6 expansions, and it had so much promise - and lately it's just turned to complete crap.

All they're doing these days is offering a bit've artwork, and a few lame modded events/decisions, and they're passing it off as a $15 DLC. I will not be buying this.

Should Paradox care? Maybe. I've bought every other expansion except the Aztec one, and I've had a considerable investment in the series both as a player and a beta tester. Given the cliche, mediocre and simply wrongheaded design direction of this one...It's amazing to think that people have jobs and are being paid money to push out DLC content this shallow and worthless. It's amazing anyone is buying it, when they could just go download the GoT mod for free, if they wanted a fantasy experience.

Howabout putting out an actual expansion which adds even marginally to the historical experience? And not just putting out what amounts to essentially a bunch've poorly written, overtuned events, some new decisions, and one semi-new, poorly thought out mechanic that does jack shit. Like the last one with the plagues, with building the retreat.

The last decent DLC was the one that added nomads to the game. But none have been quite so insulting to our intelligence, as this one. It's like they're trying to figure out the exact least amount they can do, and think the majority of people will still buy it. That's fine from a business model standpoint, but it's hardly inspiring.

I've been a loyal Paradox customer for way too long, given my join date, and the latest content, given the stylistic and design directions they've taken in HoI 4, Stellaris and the latest CK2 DLC jsut leaves me stone cold. I'm no longer at a place where I reflexively buy everything Paradox puts out just to support the company.

At some point, you can't just keep charging people $15 every time the interns, who have clearly never read or seen anything about the era in question beyond say, watching Game of Thrones on television, cobbles together some typo-ridden event chain and you add some artwork to it. Where's the actual vision?

Where is even the pretense of trying to bring history to life, that the game's original release and most of the previous DLC paid at least token lip service to? This just reminds me of a return to the bad old Republic DLC, which devs admitted was done so poorly. I.E, the dlc where they thought the best event chain for a feuding merchant republic in the 11th century would be to model it after Romeo and Juliet in the Renaissance era, and the trade posts were (and still are) horribly implemented.

But at least the Republic tried. This is just flagrant, supernatural bull-crap best left to modders, like Aztec Invasion. It's like Paradox has more artists than they have people with any ounce of real creativity or drive to make a decent product. - damocles

Dev response:

I'm sorry to hear that some of you dislike the DLC. As one of the many Content Designers who worked very hard to see this finished, this is a great personal disappointment. It is, however, of course entirely your prerogative to disagree with the direction this DLC took, and we hope that any future DLCs we make might be better to your liking. However, I would like to point out that:

- There were no interns working on this DLC.
- M&M is the largest single amount of scripted content we have ever added to the game. You may have any opinion on the quality or the artistic vision, but please do not insinuate that it is 'little content'.
- M&M involved a tremendous amount of Content Designer (and other) work to make, and I would like to combine this with the previous point to dispel the notion that we "do the least we can get away with".
- If I am not mistaken it is, in fact, the Hermetics that have the most content, and not the Devil Worshipers (though the latter are more prominently advertised).
- We were aware that some people might not like the Devil Worshipers, and therefore added a specific game option that allows you to disable them. This was specifically detached from the supernatural option, so that people who enjoyed the rare supernatural event could still enjoy those without feeling forced to play with DW's as well.
Bratyn, Yesterday at 09:07 #15

Entire thread:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/worst-expansion-since-the-aztec-invasion-one.1004257/

[mikeck]

My dev response (if I was the developer) would have been: "if you don't like it, son buy it. Of you bought it, disable it in the opening screen. If you just want to cry, whine and bitch, head over to the steam forums with the rest of the 16 year olds.

[Ubercat]

  :DD "the only other choice was Satan"

Something about that just struck me as hilarious.

[ghostryder]

lol. I think the bashing is far more unbalanced than the DLC. Sure-perhaps all that buffed learning I get should be taken away somewhere else-say my martial skill-and yes, perhaps joining satan's band of evil do'ers should come at some price-which apparantly it doesn't from what I've read and yes- a straight faith catholic should have some way to battle the demon armies---but that all can come in future DLCs and patches. But the DLC effects two groups i like to play. The persians---battling back from the Muslim invasions and trying to rebuild the church and faith--and the Jewish religion- trying to reach their goals like create Isreal-etc...are challenging options in CK2 and ones I like to play-so the fact BOTH are included here is far enough for me.

And when i'm feeling a bit weird and nasty it's nice to have lucifer options----this is the dark ages afterall and like the RPG Darklands it's damn fun when a game takes the common beliefs of the period and makes them real. That was darklands draw- and there's no reason it can't be a draw here as well. These bitchers seem upset that my wants got addressed while their 'stick to history' drive wasn't. They are kidding themselves. No Paradox game does that-- from Hearts of Iron to Victoria. It's ability to alter history--to see what you can do- has always been the draw.

And in this latest game as I map the stars and learn the mysteries I'll marry all my daughters, have my concubines and drive Islam away and restore Persia to it's rightful glory. Why anyone doesn't see the fun of that is beyond me.

[Gusington]

[MengJiao]

And in this latest game as I map the stars and learn the mysteries I'll marry all my daughters, have my concubines and drive Islam away and restore Persia to it's rightful glory. Why anyone doesn't see the fun of that is beyond me.

  Restoring Persia sounds fun, but I bought the DLC and I'm the Holy Roman Emperor in 1081.  Of course the really notorious HRE Emperor who was very far into arcana, Rudolf II, was a late Renaissance figure.  On the other hand, the aristocratic families that were very proud of their demonic ancestors (in some cases counting Wodin/Odin or even Wada the (Supernatural) smith...extend from the early middle ages (the Merovingian Sea- Monster ancestor and Mesuline) clear to the Angevins.  So the demonic thing is really more "historical" than it sounds at first audition.

[Gusington]

Really? Can you recommend any books on that? Sounds like incredible stuff.

[MengJiao]

Really? Can you recommend any books on that? Sounds like incredible stuff.

  There is at least one good book on Rudolf II.  For the others, it is very hard to find a book that is both scholarly and all about the demonic
origins of various aristocratic lineages.  The most recent thing I saw was about Richard I and had some royal figure (Richard?) joking about
his ancestor Wodin.  Wodin does occur as the ancestor of various royal lineages in Ango-Saxon geneologies and by around 1150, the
Angevins (French, but ruling England) apparently saw this as kind of funny -- but then they might have known about the sea-monster ancestor
of the MErovingians and the demonic snake-lady stories related to other French lineages.  The joke with Wodin would be that officially, pagan gods
were "demonic" -- but safely in the past -- just as many "Saints" (Crispin for example) and Arthurian Knights have lots of attributes taken over
from pagan gods.  Anyway, there's a lot to recommend a generous dose of demonology in any chunk of alternative MEdieval history -- or even
Late Renaissance history ( see Rudolf or John Dee etc.).

[JasonPratt]

Don't mind the topics; they're historical enough (if kind of early in implementation, as noted). Just wanted options to nix how they operate if I don't feel like playing a more dark-fantasy game.

Especially since there seems to be no balance (yet?) on how they work. If the (nominal) good-guys don't get ways to fight back once the dark side gets going, then there's little challenge to playing the dark side, and playing non-dark requires wanting to sign up for a verrrrry particular and difficult type of dark fantasy storyline.

Still, good to hear confirmation there are multiple options for activation/deactivation. I'll probably pick it up someday once the patching process stomps things.

Relatedly, I wonder how much went into normal patching/updating?  ???

[FarAway Sooner]

Interesting thread.

You know, based in large part on the rave reviews here, I picked up CK2, and despite three or four enthusiastic attempts, I could never make it through the Tutorials.  The GUI left me confused and squinting (is the game not made to be played at 1920 x 1080 resolution, or is my eyesight just going?), and I'd be danged if I could figure out how anything I was doing affected anything.

I like games where there's a lot under the hood.  I just never seemed able to find the car keys for this one.  Maybe I'm getting old.  Kids do that to a man...   :)

[Gusington]

Thanks Meng - I read that book on Rudolf II - The Magic Circle. Good, unique book if anyone here is interested.

[undercovergeek]

Thanks Meng - I read that book on Rudolf II - The Magic Circle. Good, unique book if anyone here is interested.

In a day?

[MengJiao]

Thanks Meng - I read that book on Rudolf II - The Magic Circle. Good, unique book if anyone here is interested.

  I haven't heard of that one.  There's another that's more about "Prague Mannerism" and has all the latest crazes from the 1580s: John Dee, Westonia Polyzena the Hispanisizing Hottie and so on.  I think it is called Rudolf II and his World.

[Gusington]

We may be talking about the same book.

[MengJiao]

We may be talking about the same book.

There's this one:


https://www.amazon.com/Rudolf-His-World-Intellectual-1576-1612/dp/0198225164

And this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Circle-Rudolf-Astrology-Renaissance/dp/0802715516

And even a few more!