Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread

[JasonPratt]

Note that contextually, the Frog isn't making a "Proposal" yet as Presiding Magistrate. He's offering a Contract, which I would automatically process when the terms come up.

Tripoli and Erax have agreed to the Contract.

It is thus valid (I'll name it tomorrow, or someone else can do so -- need to go to bed early). Anyone else can join it as they wish upon their own declaration.

Be aware however that, according to my calculations, you'll still need one more Faction to agree to your coming proposals (by Contract now, or on a case-by-case basis along the way), in order to safely carry the majority. Malize may not have recovered fully yet, and I.I.'s knights can't currently vote more than their usual extra; but together with AzTank's activist votes (which automatically trigger when voting against any Proposition) they could hold a majority against your Contract.

(I think. I'm a little bleery and need to hit the sack.  O:-) )

[JasonPratt]

I should perhaps also mention, since this is the second Turn it has shown up: as far as I know, a Contract not to Prosecute senators in your own Faction is (mostly) meaningless for two reasons.

1.) As far as I know, there is no profitable benefit for a Censor to launch a Prosecution of one of his fellow Faction senators. (Except for some loopy political gamesmanship perhaps, where one of your senators was contracted to do something and you don't want to do it so, whoops, he's being Major Prosecuted now, trolololol!  >:D But even then, sacrificing one of your own senators doesn't seem likely to be worth the benefit.) Even the Progressives, a Faction who (at least nominally) gets special abilities aimed at reforming the Senate from corruption and helping out the people, doesn't usually profit on the net balance by voting against their own senator's Acquittal in a Prosecution: the extra Influence gained from doing so isn't likely to offset the losses from a Conviction. (Though again I could imagine some loopy ways to exploit that, like using it to edge one of his other senators over the minimum Influence necessary to be automatically appo.inted Consul for Life!)


2.) There is only one situation, aside from a Contracted promise to do so (which a later Contract would not be able to negate), where a Censor would be forced to investigate any of his fellow Faction senators for corruption: investigating whether a Faction Leader conspired to send an assassinating senator who got caught in the attempt. In that case, the Censor might even have to put himself on trial! But for game balance purposes, that can't be Contracted against. Otherwise the first thing any Player would do when gaining a new senator, would be to publicly Contract with his fellow Faction senators that none of them will ever investigate their Faction Leader for conspiracy to assassinate! Similarly, Contracting not to Prosecute the Progressives this Turn, will not let off the Plutocrats from necessarily investigating the Progressive Faction Leader on a conspiracy to assassinate.


So, while it isn't invalid for the Frog to Contract not to Prosecute his own Plutocrat senators, it's kind of  " ::) :P ;) ". It doesn't really mean anything.

[malize]

I'll agree even though I wasn't included in the immunity, I'll just take Ethel's word.

[JasonPratt]

The Frog offers what I shall call the Seventh Turn Co-operative Immunity Contract. Specifically:

1.) Appius Claudius the Roman Consul, acting as PM, will propose Acilius (of his own Plutocrats) and Flaminius (of the Progressives) as Consuls this Turn, which any Contracted Players will agree to vote for.

2.) The new Consuls will agree to Propose Appius Claudius as Censor this Turn, which any Contracted Players will agree to vote for.

3.) Claudius will agree not to Prosecute any Progressive or Militarist senators this Turn if they join the Contract and vote him in as Censor. (Claudius also agrees not to Prosecute any of his own Plutocratic senators, for whatever that's worth.  ::) )


The Progressives and the Militarists agree to join the Contract. The Populists also agree to join the Contract, even though Malize realizes no immunity to Prosecution is granted to his senators by the Contract.

Other Players may also join along the way, but the terms of the Contract will not be negotiable henceforth.


I acknowledge the public Contract to be in operation, and I will process it automatically as we reach the appropriate stages.

[JasonPratt]

Mandatory Business begins with an automatic resolution of the first term of the 7thTurnCoIm. Appius Proposes Flaminius and Acilius as Consuls. Plutocrats, Populists, Progressives, and Militarists all vote for. This is a decisive majority even if the Aristocrat activist ability opposes, and there are no benefits for remaining Players to vote against, so the Proposal passes.

Erax (for Flaminius) and the Frog (for Acilius) must decide among themselves who will be Roman and Field Consuls. Influence gain is +4 (for Italian Era Consuls) either way. Acilius has a Mil of 2; Flam has a Mil of 4. Being only family Senators, neither one has special abilities such as avoiding D/S results for particular Wars.

The 2nd Latin War only has a Land Strength of 4, and no Leader. D4, S18 are unavoidable but very low chances. Winning the Latin War will help Unrest a little, as well as permanently increasing the Republic's capabilities (and eliminate the ongoing cash drain). Ten Legions (1st thru 10th inclusively) are Active.

[Erax]

Flaminius accepts the role of Field Consul.

If/when we make an agreement for next turn's elections, however, it is important to keep in mind that 21 Influence is an important limit - at that level a Senator may be nominated Consul for Life, though they still must win a vote (and I can't imagine any other faction voting in favor). In any event, keeping everyone below this level would avoid much infighting.

[JasonPratt]

Also, next Turn is almost guaranteed to start the Early Provincial Era, where election for CfL becomes possible.

As Erax notes, this basically requires the Player with that senator to be able to outvote all other Factions by himself, which is hard to arrange (though increasingly more easy as the game goes on!) So this early in the game it isn't too problematic -- though then again, the nominee always adds his own influence as votes!  :o

The more dangerous limit is 35 Influence -- because starting next Turn (most likely), the senator with that much influence automatically gets appointed Consul for Life.


There is however a way around this, which is not forbidden by the rules explicitly: a Player may at any time Contract to never have X-senator be Consul for Life.

[Ethel the Frog]

Flaminius to field consul so he can prosecute the war?

[Erax]

Yes, his Mil 4 is not too bad.

[JasonPratt]

My apologies for the delay -- 'work' work at the end of the year is hectic and last night I had to stay after overtime until about bedtime! Such is the life of a production manager.

I still won't be back at the house for another ten hours (at least), but I'll see what I can process here by text. (And catch up on the board later.)

[JasonPratt]

Note: I'll have to update the Influence gains officially this evening, but Acilius and Flaminius will both pick up 4 Influence, as well as their Faction Totals. This means the Plutocrats are edging out the Aristocrats even farther, so there can still be no activist x2 knight voting for the Aristos (only the normal knight voting).

Okay, already have a PontMax; can't use a Dictator yet; thus also not a Master of Horse; thus next Mandatory Business is Censor election.

In accordance with the 7thTurnCoIm, Acilius Proposes Appius Claudius as Censor, and everyone involved in the Contract votes for this, which is very much a majority of Senate votes.

ApClaud becomes Censor, and gains... however much the Censor gains in the Italian Era, 4 Influence I think.

The Presiding Magistrate post shifts temporarily over to ApClaud for the Prosecution segment. In accordance with the final condition of the 7thTurnCoIm, ApClaud is forbidden to investigate any senator from his own Plutocrats  ::) ::) ::) , nor from the Militarists nor the Progressives.

This leaves over as valid targets (clockwise from Player One around the table):

From the Aristocrats, Valerius for two Minor Suspicions, and their Faction Leader Cornelius for a Minor Suspicion.

From the Conservatives: no one. (None of his senators held major office last Turn, except for the now-dead PontMax, and he has never managed to secure a Concession.)

From the Populists (who are not exempted by the terms of the Contract even though Malize joined it): Aurelius for a Minor Suspicion.


A "Minor" Conviction will cost the Defendant up to 5 Influence and 5 Popularity, and any Concessions he has will go directly to the Forum to be voted on for re-assignment. The Prosecutor will gain half of any lost Influence.

[JasonPratt]

Meanwhile, since Tribunes are now a "thing"...  let me clarify:

1.) Tribunes CAN (normally) veto automatic procession of Contracted choices, in any situations where a veto would normally work (e.g. Dictator Proposals cannot be vetoed). This includes the PontMax veto ability once per Turn. The main exception is that Players who have Contracted to make choices, cannot throw vetos to get out of their Contracted obligations. (e.g. if Malize had a Tribune, he could not use it to veto his obligated votes for ApClaud as Censor.)

2.) Tribunes CAN (normally) introduce Proposals in the middle of a Contracted series of events that I'm automatically processing, so long as those Proposals would be normally valid.

3.) Vetos used to break Contracted terms from being fulfilled, will also break subsequent obligations to fulfill terms. This means I will no longer automatically process subsequent terms of the Contract. The Contracting Players can still voluntarily fulfill the subsequent terms, but they'll have to do so 'manually' (or tell me ahead of time what they plan to do when-if-ever those situations come up.)

4.) Due to the nature of asynchronous play, I will allow a reasonable level of lag to retroactively throw Tribunes for vetos or Proposals, even though this will definitely allow Players to spoof gameplay to some extent. It's the only fair way I can think of to strike a balance between strategic play of Tribunes and moving the game along promptly. I'm willing to consider arguments for alternate procedures.

Having said that, any Players with Tribunes should be planning ahead as far as possible based on what they can reasonably expect to happen, and alerting me of any preparations they want to make, in order for the smoothest strategic play under the circumstances.  O:-)

[JasonPratt]

As a practical exercise, this means that henceforth until the end of the game, someone might p-mail me with instructions like this: "If the Censor decides to Prosecute my senator X this Turn, for which I'll make a Popular Appeal by the way, and if before the final 2d6 roll it looks like I have more than a 30% chance of being Convicted, then I'll play my Tribune to veto the Prosecution."

[JasonPratt]

Whoops, I need to correct a vote tally, though it won't affect the voting results so far.

The Progressives roll 3+2=5 so draw a card. It's a red-text Faction card, so he draws it to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail about it.

Plautius sacrifices 2 of his 8 cash to roll for a knight, so 4 or more on a 1d6: but he also rolls a 1.  :'(

Erax reminded me afterward that he had planned to spend 3 not 2 cash. I forgot I had already rolled, and so I thought I had simply forgotten the roll due to the winning of Erax's 3rd senator Family.

Consequently, I spent 3 (as instructed) of Plautius' 6 remaining cash (2 from 8 being 6) on what I thought was his knight roll, and happened to win it that time -- but the roll was illegitimate.

The correct procedure and result should have been: Plautius sacrificed 3 of his 8 cash during his knight roll, but (still) lost with a 1. He should have 5 (not 3) Talents remaining in his personal Treasury, but one less knight (and the Progressives should have one less normal vote total.)

I'll adjust tonight.

[JasonPratt]

Okay, let's catch me up.

Per Erax's reminder, he spent 3 (not 2) of his 8 Talents and rolled a 1, so Plautius does not in fact have a knight, and the Progressive normal vote tally is still 7. But Plautius does have 5 Talents not 3. Now fixed.

Flaminius accepts the office of Field Consul, +4 Influence, up from 5 to 9, bringing the Progressive total to 13. (Hopefully this won't draw the attention of the skanky ones again AHEM I MEANT THE "KINDLY" ONES!!  :hide: )

The Pontifex Maximus Acilius takes over leadership of the Senate as the Roman Consul, and as Presiding Magistrate. His influence also goes up 4, from 12 to 16, and the Plutocrat total influence goes up to 46. (For such an unassuming little blob of a senator, the first Acilius has had a varied and interesting career since becoming politically important enough to notice!

In accordance with the Contract, the Contracted Factions Propose and elect former Consul Appius Claudius as Censor, for what will surely be his final office (since the pre-Early Statesmen will, with all practical certainty, be retiring sometime next Turn.) This bumps him up another 4 Influence (for Italian Era Censors) from 15 to 19, and the Plutocrat total Influence goes up to 50.