Russia's War Against Ukraine

[JudgeDredd]

I am both shocked and fucking outraged.

That ***** will sit there and shake hands with Putin but he'll treat someone who's trying to defend his country from an invasion by a dictator.

It's Ukrainian lives in that battlefield.

Europe needs to get its shit together and fucking fast.

That was nothing but an ambush

I don't think i can pop into this thread anymore because I genuinely can't listen to anyone standing up for him anymore. That's outrageous.

How is Zelensky, defending his nation and people from a brutal dictator, risking WWIII.

[Jarhead0331]

What did I miss?

EDIT - I'm looking now.

EDIT 2 - Actually, it is very difficult to look. I will say it is unfortunate and extremely regretful that this was handled publically.

While I hope a collaboration can be salvaged, I agree that Europe needs to get its act together. Being objective and putting myself in the shoes of a Ukrainian, I would likely be disgusted, and frightened and would certainly not put faith in meaningful support from the United States.

I had really high hopes for Zelensky's visit to the White House. I'm very disappointed with the outlook thus far.

Judge if you're concerned about seeing blind support for Trump in this thread, you won't see that from me. Please stick with us. Your perspective as a European is very valued. 

[Pete Dero]

What did I miss?

EDIT - I'm looking now.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/28/politics/trump-zelensky-vance-oval-office/index.html

[al_infierno]

I am both shocked and fucking outraged.

That ***** will sit there and shake hands with Putin but he'll treat someone who's trying to defend his country from an invasion by a dictator.

It's Ukrainian lives in that battlefield.

Europe needs to get its shit together and fucking fast.

That was nothing but an ambush

I don't think i can pop into this thread anymore because I genuinely can't listen to anyone standing up for him anymore. That's outrageous.

How is Zelensky, defending his nation and people from a brutal dictator, risking WWIII.

You're surprised that the veritable sexual abuser engages in victim blaming?

[Jarhead0331]

I'm watching it all again and I'm not sure what Zelensky was trying to accomplish with his tone and demeanor. Why would he do or say anything to publicly antagonize Trump and Vance, especially in the oval office with the media spotlight? He knows what kind of personality he is dealing with. It seems foolish to be anything other than completely courteous and gracious when you're looking for billions in military aid, are in a very poor strategic position, and don't have many other options.

Zelensky has to take some accountability for this dismaying outcome. 

[al_infierno]

I'm watching it all again and I'm not sure what Zelensky was trying to accomplish with his tone and demeanor. Why would he do or say anything to publicly antagonize Trump and Vance, especially in the oval office with the media spotlight? He knows what kind of personality he is dealing with. It seems foolish to be anything other than completely courteous and gracious when you're looking for billions in military aid, are in a very poor strategic position, and don't have many other options.

Zelensky has to take some accountability for this dismaying outcome.

While I like to see Zelensky stand up to Trump and refuse to beg or grovel, I unfortunately think this is right. But Zelensky may be operating under the assumption that the "meaningful aid from Trump" ship has already sailed.

[Jarhead0331]

I'm watching it all again and I'm not sure what Zelensky was trying to accomplish with his tone and demeanor. Why would he do or say anything to publicly antagonize Trump and Vance, especially in the oval office with the media spotlight? He knows what kind of personality he is dealing with. It seems foolish to be anything other than completely courteous and gracious when you're looking for billions in military aid, are in a very poor strategic position, and don't have many other options.

Zelensky has to take some accountability for this dismaying outcome.

While I like to see Zelensky stand up to Trump and refuse to beg or grovel, I unfortunately think this is right. But Zelensky may be under the impression that the "meaningful aid from Trump" ship has already sailed.

Yes, but I think there is a way to be gracious without groveling and really, even if the aid ship had already sailed, Zelensky still might have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat, through smart, considered statesmanship. This was very poor diplomacy on his part and if his country suffers, he will have to shoulder the blame. It isn't hard to get Trump to say positive, supportive things publicly. You just need to show respect and be complimentary. That kind of "foreplay" is a springboard to action.

This was Zelensky's opportunity to make progress and i feel like he really blew it. Trump and Vance still have accountability, as well, especially for very openly discussing how vulnerable and disadvantaged Ukraine's strategic position in the war presently is, but Ukraine has so much more to lose out of this sordid affair. Regardless of what happens in the end, it is tragic how Putin will use this both internally and externally to continue the war.

[Pete Dero]

The oval office media show came after a meeting in which Zelensky was made clear he had to sign the rare materials deal without any US security guaranties included.

The guaranties were the reason he came to the US as he rightfully doesn't trust Putin.

Macron and Starmer corrected Trump during their meeting but weren't treated like this.
For Trump Zelensky remains the guy who got him impeached over a 'perfect phone call'.

[Anguille]

Putin doesn't want a cease-fire. There's no deal to make with the russians except surrender.

[Crossroads]

That looked premeditated by JD Vance, it was cordial enough until he chipped in. Just like his MAGA campaign speech in Munich conference, that was premeditated as well to shock and insult the European leaders present.

The UN vote, now this. I am old fashioned in a way that I judge people on what they say to be their opinion. It is quite something if White House is siding with Russia over their allies here across the pond.

National Review - This is Not a TV Show

What just happened in the Oval Office defies description. It must be watched to be believed:

In sum, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky was treated to a scolding lecture about why his country should be content with the extent to which it has defended some of its citizens from foreign aggression and should capitulate. He was berated, and forced to defend himself in a non-native language, for his failure to express sufficient gratitude to the United States for its support in its existential war effort — gratitude Zelensky has expressed on countless occasions. Nevertheless, for his insistence on his country's survival as a sovereign entity, he was accused by the president and vice president of being "disrespectful," but only because he had the temerity to do so before the cameras the White House invited into that meeting.

"You're either going to make a deal, or we're out," Trump said in reference to an alleged "peace" plan — a campaign of diplomacy in which all the carrots are reserved for the aggressor and the sticks are exclusive to our pro-Western partner, the target of unprovoked aggression. "I think we've seen enough. What do you think?" Trump told reporters in anticipation of this afternoon's joint press conference with his Ukrainian counterpart. "This is gonna be great television, I will say that."

But this is not a TV show. It's real geopolitical diplomacy centered on a real war on the European continent with real and grave implications not just for the stability of the Atlantic Alliance but the U.S.-led world order around the globe. This is not a game for the benefit of a terminally online audience that is constitutionally allergic to earnestness and solemnity. There will be consequences that follow from this, and they will almost certainly be bad for U.S. security and that of our allies.

[Uberhaus]

Perhaps one or both of the Klitschko brothers could convey Ukraine's true gratitude to President Trump and the American people.  Trump and the Klitschko brothers have a long history and at least the mayor of Kyiv shares a disdain for the Ukrainian president with Mr. Trump.  They would be able to sincerely convey their countries gratitude along with convincing Mr. Trump of the situation of the Ukrainian people.

[planetbrain]

That meeting comes across to me as a couple of overbearing bombastic dudes not giving a shit about Ukraine.
I don't see that Zelenskyy was disrespectful or did much wrong. He was effectively told to shut up and mind his place, be grateful & thankful, & not try to correct any of the bullshit!
That meeting was only for one side to get their misinformation across.

[Jarhead0331]

Zelensky is on Bret Baier now.

[JasonPratt]

As much as I hated watching what happened (for several reasons), realistically we all know this war is Putin's to stop (which of course is why Z has long said there's no victory short of somehow getting Putin out), and while Russia doesn't hold many good cards P has a few potential 'trump' cards (no relation) and Z doesn't.

From that standpoint, the true difficulty will be angling Putin to agree to stop invading and work out some kind of consistent non-fight for at least the next four years (realistically speaking). It may be true that Ukraine won't get any of their occupied land back even for swapping their Kursk holdings (which they're doing a bang-up job defending recently), but considering Putin's plan for them survival IS victory; and while recovering to live well isn't the best revenge it sure ain't the worst. Though I understand Z's concern: Putin cannot permanently quit, he needs the Ukraine to loot for his regime (and maybe "Russia" at all) to continue, therefore no Russian cease fire much less peace can be trusted. Not even counting Putin's past history about cease-fires, which Z is very correct to appeal about.

We over here tend to think the propaganda about this being an existential war for Russia's survival, to be flatulent nonsense as a pretext; but from Putin's personal perspective (at the very least) that's a real looming threat, and he has acted pretty consistently along that line so far. I don't think Putin and his regime can survive the very practical destruction of his military-industrial base for no gains, and Russia cannot survive another generation of kleptocracy regardless of who's in charge of the robbers.

To get Putin to "stop the killing", he has to be given something that he himself would accept as acceptable "survival". Or can even politically (and literally) live with. I don't know that I know what that would be -- even taking all Ukraine would only kick the survival can down the road at the cost of genocide. I'm doubtful Trump really knows what that would be -- an economic solution doesn't fix the underlying problem of a systematic looter state, which Putin may realize, though maybe he'd accept that as a consolation prize for the rest of his natural life.

In any case, Ukraine is over a barrel: they need logistics (if not also manpower) to keep up the Putin pressure, so Z has to find the best deal he can get. But T doesn't want to promise the logistics just to kick the war can (and Russia's asses) down the road some more for no foreseeable end goal. Z can have "all the cards" instead of "a very poor hand"; Putin is NEVER going to get "all the cards" from anyone now; and THAT'S the deal Trump is going to have to sell hard: he can't pressure P as much as he can pressure Z.

Keeping that in mind, for Z to insist he doesn't want a cease-fire, in public, in front of cameras: while I'm glad he's being honest and I REALLY REALLY understand his point of view on that, it basically undermines Trump's negotiation strategy (such as it is) to get Putin to stop killing Ukrainians, and if Putin doesn't stop then the war doesn't stop (and Putin might use his few 'trump' cards in some spiteful crazy way to burn the board and flip the table if he's personally going to suffer hard as an end result anyway.)

Vance took the good-but-steely-cop diplomatic approach to that statement. Trump, foreseeing the practical impossibility of getting Putin to quit if there's no ceasefire, and worse having unlimited US firepower (and related support) pouring into the non-ceasefire to aggravate someone with his finger on at least a few working nukes (probably, however bad P's stockpile might have degraded by now) -- well, other people have gotten emotionally worked up over Ukraine "gambling with World War III" before, even though for Ukraine there isn't much difference between extinction and the end of human civilization. Should T have kept his cool, yes. But Trump rarely does that; and so being publicly upset he mouths off volcanoes, sometimes for the better, usually for the worse -- typically the worse for him, sometimes the worse for more people.

To get Putin to fold, the US must keep the spice(y weapons) flowing and crank up the volume. To get Putin to fold, the US must also convince Ukraine to dial back the fighting despite the firepower volume cranking up.

Everyone else in the history of ever, already knew that wasn't going to be easy to achieve, and might be disastrous to fail. Trump already knew it might be disastrous; he has been learning (or at least demonstrating to everyone else who knew it already), it isn't going to be as easy as he kept marketing himself about.   

How many more people will suffer and die for that lack of self-control, we'll see. I do understand Trump's point, too, but GOD-DAMN his egotistic lack of self-control. His own worst enemy is himself, but a lot of other people are riding on himself -- just as he wanted.

(Um, "phrasing", sorry.)

[Crossroads]

Good morning. As the dust is still settling in - and it may take some time to do so - here's a few observations about yesterday:

But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn't start this Oval Office exchange.
- WSJ Editorial

Vance blew up that meeting on purpose.
- Anne Applebaum

Zelensky doesn't need Trump's help to give Putin four regions, downsize the army, and abandon NATO aspirations. If he wanted to surrender to Putin, he would have gone to Moscow, not Washington.
- Prof. Slawomir Debski

I think it is obvious that Putin does not want peace, and that Zelenskyi does not want to / won't capitulate.

I have no idea where this all leaves us. My choice for  Occum's Razor at the moment would be:

The deal was always going to be so unacceptably bad that Ukraine would have to reject it. Trump can then say we tried to make peace but Ukraine (& Europe) didn't want peace. And wash his hands of it.
- Minna Alander, citing a DC source.