Back in the water!

[MarkShot]

Those SUBROCs are a really interesting weapon.  Even at long range, they can be impossible to escape from due to their extreme speed of travel.  But to be successful, they must be laid down in an accurate pattern.  Otherwise, besides the scare factor, they pose little threat.

On the other hand, the long range wire guided torpedo (active homing) takes much longer to reach its target and at long range can be easily evaded.  But the wire guiding means that you (assuming not preoccupied) can chase down the target until the seeker head latches on for the kill.

If you watched the above sub duel, you will see that my two fish were initially shot with a reasonable solution.  The RTE was long, but it is a good bet that range to a target will open once the fish are detected as opposed to close (except when watching Hunt for Red October).  Despite that the actual path to a kill followed a big sweeping arc to the North and then to the East from the initial shot to the SSW.

So, you have a conundrum with the SUBROC.  An excellent long range weapon, but it requires a solid solution.  However, the realities of combat are that you are often required to shoot before you have that perfect solution, because any further time to build it will cost you the advantage of the first shot.

[MarkShot]

As the SC/DW replay viewer leaves a lot to be desired, I had wanted to show you folks the sub tracks of this duel.  With SHOW TRUTH = ON in the NAV Station, you can see tracks (course and relative speed).

I had done a SAVE GAME right before exiting.  Sadly, I found out that SHOW TRUTH = ON along with SHOW PLATFORM HISTORY will not give me what I want, since once a platform is dead, it is removed from this level of reporting.  So, if in the future I want such a memento, then a SAVE has to be created right before I or some other platform is killed.  Needless to say, not always the easiest thing to time.

This reminds me of one of my history of video game pet peeves.  In the early days, most sims had full mission VCRs.  Towards the mid-1990s due to pressure on budgets and new need to incorporate MP via modem and LAN, VCR function in most games began to be dropped.  PAW by MPS had one of the best VCRs I have ever seen.  You can display the recording from almost any of the supported views and change perspective, you could save that choreographed collection as a recording.  I miss this in games.  Lack of top notch VCRs features makes it much harder to savor your victories and learn from your defeats.

[MarkShot]

SH2/PA mod was pure genious ... How they built a random campaign out of a linear system.

However, there was no resolving any engine bugs. The biggest was that escorts in a saved patrol would no longer engage you if the save game was loaded.

Yes, i don't know how they managed to make it random but that was major plus, SH2 ACES and PA mods really made it worthwhile the wait for SHIII.

Oh, I kind of missed this post.

Here is how it was done.  SH2 used a relatively straight forward (but very big and tedious files) to create scenarios/campaign missions.  A group of modders built an engine called Kriegstantz which provided a graphical UI to specify a mission.  Beyond simply a graphic UI, it created a meta file (templates) which allowed randomness and variability in terms of how the final mission was generated for play.

The SH2/PA modders applied the same core code of Kriegstanz to their work.  The stock SH2 campaign was just a set of linear missions.  From the main menu of SH2/PA, they would run the core code of Kriegstanz which would create a series of missions based on very elaborate and randomly selected templates which would replace the stock linear campaign with a new linear campain.  So, the result was linear and only partially random.  However, everytime you started a new career from the main menu, it did this.  Thus, they were able to take a non-dynamic pretty rigid system and turn into something which looked like a dynamic campaign.

It was pure modding genious.  Sometimes, the things which people achieve without having access to the source code is simply amazing!

If not for basic engine bugs, I think I would still be playing SH2/PA today.  Sadly, there were some real game killers.

[Nefaro]

If not for basic engine bugs, I think I would still be playing SH2/PA today.  Sadly, there were some real game killers.

Agreed.

I also greatly enjoyed the Destroyer vs sub games in multiplayer.  Yet another mod was created to make the multiplayer reliably work since it would drop constantly in the stock games - excellent modding for those games back then.   

I've yet to play any DW multiplayer, with multiple platforms.  I never got terribly comfortable with many of the platforms' systems.  It's too bad they didn't do so well on sales as to create a newer engine'd sequel of DW, since the one they used was so old.  I guess these sims with a massive learning curve just don't garner lots of sales.  :-[

[MarkShot]

I've haven't done MP more than a decade now.  And then, it was flight sims.

Many years ago Subsim.com started producing a hard copy Sub Almanac to generate funding for the site.  (It was discontinued.)  In the first edition, they had a piece by the project lead for SH3.  In it he stated that early on, they decided to produce a product that was the graphical equivalent of a flight sim and that the acid test would be that the water must look like water.  They definitely hit their mark.

I think that explains the financial success and rebirth of the SH franchise starting with SH3, and also explains the failure of SC and DW as commercial ventures.  However, Sonalysts in many ways had much more to leverage than EA, since their core business was not digital entertainment and they could leverage their military code base and expertise.  But perhaps that also accounted for a graphical experience which was more function than "wow!".  Also, the military contracting culture of Sonalysts might have also done the SC/DW projects in.  The business model of contract defense consulting regarding expense and revenue is vastly different from the consumer games market.

For me, I don't need that "wow!" in a sub sim.  I still find many aspects of AOD and SH1 superior.  I for the most part play SC/DW without ever looking at the 3D (my apology to all those modders that spent countless hours spiffing up platforms).

[Oche]

When I saw the SH1 demo in 96 (I think) I was completely blown away, my expectations were very high and ALL of them were met 100% when i got the game when it came out. Subsims have been my favorite sims and overall SH has been the one I've got the most entertainment out of it by far. Ever since I played "Sub Hunt" in the Intellivision I've been haunted by Subsims. Gato from Spectrum holobyte followed, then Silent Service, Silent Service II, 688 attack Sub, Wolf Pack, etc.

[MarkShot]

I think the only issue I had with SH1 was the extremely high number of contacts.  If you read actual patrol reports, you'll find that targets were never so readily available.  In SH1, you are practically tripping over them.

In AOD, it can take a fair amount of patrolling to find a convoy.

Of course, I think this was a game play concession, because patrolling itself can get pretty boring.

[MarkShot]

By the way, someone was kind enough to email me over 400+ custom scenarios they have for SH1.  If you are interested, send me a PM.

[Oche]

By the way, someone was kind enough to email me over 400+ custom scenarios they have for SH1.  If you are interested, send me a PM.

That's a lot of scenarios  :o, very nice. How do you play SH and AOD? thru Dosbox or other DOS emulator?.

[MarkShot]

DOSBOX but I haven't played either in a while.

[Oche]

By the way...for nostalgia...Silent Hunter related.

http://www.valoratsea.com/main.htm

[MarkShot]

Yes, I made an offline copy of all that material years ago.  The site used to be called, "The Battle Below".

[Oche]

Yeah, i actually remembered it like that way too, that's how i found it, battlebelow.com...the webpage had a Gato class in the center with a white background and the Klaxon alarm ringing  ;D

[MarkShot]

Nefaro,

I fear I will never get an answer over at Subsim as it is pretty dead.  Maybe you know:

I knew that torpedos in SC when set to run below their maximum speed, they still accelerate to their maximum speed when they enable.

However, in DW, they never accelerate.  Why is that?

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

It doesn't make sense to me (unless that is how torpedos really work).  Since you may want to do a long range shot and conserve fuel, but what if the ultimate target is something like an Alfa.  At top speed, the weapon will only have a meager 10KTS on him.