Crusader Kings II Expack Announced

[Martok]

As someone with at least a modest interest in Byzantium, I'll almost certainly be getting this. 

[besilarius]

Jeng, the thing about the sudden explosion of Islam to me is was it pure happenstance?
Or did the leadership realise their opportunity and jump at the best time?
Realistically, as much as the Romans and Persians loathed each other, they had an ancient understanding.
If the Arab onslaught began even five years earlier, would the two ancient enemies have patched up a truce to face this upstart heresy?
I know it's a strange question, but as you noted, those were strange times.

[Gusington]

Can anyone recommend some books on Byzantium vs. the spread of Islam? I have found a few but they are not highly reviewed.

[MengJiao]

Jeng, the thing about the sudden explosion of Islam to me is was it pure happenstance?
Or did the leadership realise their opportunity and jump at the best time?
Realistically, as much as the Romans and Persians loathed each other, they had an ancient understanding.
If the Arab onslaught began even five years earlier, would the two ancient enemies have patched up a truce to face this upstart heresy?
I know it's a strange question, but as you noted, those were strange times.

  I'm not sure how the Persians and East Romans viewed each other.  They seem to have imitiated each other, though by the time
Heraclitus took Cteisphon and saw the incredible cosmic model where the King of Kings could have himself elevated into
a working model of the heavens, it was kind of an extreme case of desperate Rag-tag army (the East Romans) versus Zoroastrian
Empire.  I don't think the East Romans and the Persians could have faced anything at all by the time the Arabs came whirling out of the desert but more because they invested in sanctifying their particular heirarchies rather than adapting to rapidly changing cicumstances.  For one thing the Iconoclasm of Mohammed's message was something that a majority of inhabitants of the two Image-heavy Empires would have found refreshing (see Judith Herrin's Formation of Christendom):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Herrin

[MengJiao]

As someone with at least a modest interest in Byzantium, I'll almost certainly be getting this.

Well, I was going to wait for the Byzantines, but undercovergeeks brilliant AAR was such a good read that I decided to
get into the game.  I've had 4 months of the life of Emmo of Loon (yep.  He's there alright).  I figured Loon is where
the 101st Airborne landed during marketgarden so I must have seen some of Emmo's lineage's fortifications in their
1944 versions in Where Eagles dare.

Fortunately for Emmo, I was playing on VERY EASY so things went okay.  Everyone got married and nobody but maybe some
Pagan Pomeranians got killed (outside of a bloodbath of some kind in Switzerland).

Lessons learned:  Don't be arbitrary and Craven
                             Acquiring a 16-year-old wife who is a military genius and ace administrator can double your firepower and
                             triple your administrative things.
                             
Ambitions thwarted:  I'd like to have Winifred take the army and smash some non-Loons, but I apparently can't dismiss myself from
command so I have to take whatever advice she can give when we go after the Pomeranians (Pagan dogs!).

Anyway the Army went to Pomerania without me or Winifred.  16 of Bishop Iacco's troops are wandering through Loon.

A lot happened in 4 months in Loon.
                             

[Nefaro]

The Loonies are loose!  :P

[MengJiao]

The Loonies are loose!  :P

  Loon was fun, but I think I'll try a different approach on my next forray into CKII.

[Kushan]

The first two development diaries have been posted. Day 1 purchase for, even if it does look like most of the major system changes will be in the v1.07 patch. Anything that makes the Byzantines more interesting is a good thing IMO. Right now they seem like a mirror image of their western counter parts.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?630854-Crusader-Kings-II-Legacy-of-Rome-Dev-Diary-0-Clearing-the-Fog-of-War

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?632212-Legacy-of-Rome-Dev-Diary-1&p=14341778#post14341778

LEGACY OF ROME DLC

    Retinue system. If you don't have the DLC, you won't see the new interface and you cannot hire retinues (and neither will the AI.) The technology that controls the max size of your retinue and relative decrease of normal levy sizes simply does not have this effect without the DLC.
    Orthodox Councillor models
    Major Decisions for the Byzantine Empire
    Byzantine Events


Oh, and we're taking another tack with the DLC this around - if you don't own the DLC, the AI won't be using the new mechanics or events either. Also, from now on in multiplayer mode, the host will control which DLCs are active.

PATCH 1.07

    Faction system. Replaces many existing plots and normal revolt mechanics with factions.
    Personal Improvement Ambitions
    Orthodox Patriarch system
    Have both a Plot and an Ambition at the same time
    Revised levy raising. (You raise a single, large levy from each direct vassal. The opinions of vassals of vassals are irrelevant.)
    Leader Focus on Combat
    More Cultural Buildings
    Improved AI
    Bug fixes (of course)

[son_of_montfort]

You could even argue that Islam was a relatively non-cataclysmic (sp!) way for Persia to collapse.  Certainly civilization didn't crash as completely in the Levant as it did insay the British Isles, Gaul, and Iberia in the Collapse of the Western Empire.
But that still leaves the even more puzzling case of the East Romans.  How on earth did they survive the 7th century much less for
another 800 years?  One answer seems to be they always seem to have had plenty of cash.  Heraclitus notoriously had as much
gold stripped from churches (and temples?  were there any left?  There were still plenty of antique monuments and spolia in Constantinople) as he could and apparently he had a lot of mercenaries such as Franks.
Well.  it all seems very odd to me.

I wouldn't say that society completely collapsed in the Western Empire. Certain bits of "roman-ness" still survived, even if translated through the rule of the Germanic minority. Heraclius was sort of a wild emperor and he managed to weaken the Sassinids enough that they were fairly easy pickings for the Muslim invaders. I'm not sure I buy the argument that the Muslims were "refreshing" for their lack of use of images, but the Byzantines did respond to Muslim success by a sudden and violent wave of Iconoclasm (it was rapidly ended and they went back to their old ways).

Byzantium had an amazing tactical position and gigantic (nigh impregnable) city walls. They also had a decent navy, something which the Muslim invaders had not yet developed. Remember, Byzantium had tons of cash flowing in from the east (on the Silk Road) and eventually from the West, once trade picked back up in the 700s-900s. Like all cities in the Early Middle Ages, Byzantium declined in population and prestige, so one had to assume that the once massive city was as shell of itself during this time. I suppose it survived by going slightly "dormant," letting the rural population fend for itself, then regrowing again in the 10th to 12th centuries (like much of the West). The Arabs occupied themselves with other conquests (India, Spain, North Africa) and were themselves fractured by internecine struggles during the transitions between Caliphates. I think the Arabs felt that Byzantium was more trouble than it was worth, and that Spain and North Africa were easier pickings (who knows what they thought of India, but it certainly had wealth and allure).

[besilarius]

SOm if you aren't inclined to read through Norwich;s work on the East Romans, your university should have a copy of CWC Oman's Art of War in the Middle Ages.  Preferably the two volume work.
The section on the Byzantine army is quite good.

[Gusington]

Once the DLC is out I will also be reading The Life of Belisarius

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

I requested an inter-library loan of that Turkish Siege of Constantinpole film at the library.  I'll pick it up on Wednesday.

[MengJiao]

You could even argue that Islam was a relatively non-cataclysmic (sp!) way for Persia to collapse.  Certainly civilization didn't crash as completely in the Levant as it did insay the British Isles, Gaul, and Iberia in the Collapse of the Western Empire.
But that still leaves the even more puzzling case of the East Romans.  How on earth did they survive the 7th century much less for
another 800 years?  One answer seems to be they always seem to have had plenty of cash.  Heraclitus notoriously had as much
gold stripped from churches (and temples?  were there any left?  There were still plenty of antique monuments and spolia in Constantinople) as he could and apparently he had a lot of mercenaries such as Franks.
Well.  it all seems very odd to me.

I wouldn't say that society completely collapsed in the Western Empire. Certain bits of "roman-ness" still survived, even if translated through the rule of the Germanic minority. Heraclius was sort of a wild emperor and he managed to weaken the Sassinids enough that they were fairly easy pickings for the Muslim invaders. I'm not sure I buy the argument that the Muslims were "refreshing" for their lack of use of images, but the Byzantines did respond to Muslim success by a sudden and violent wave of Iconoclasm (it was rapidly ended and they went back to their old ways).

Byzantium had an amazing tactical position and gigantic (nigh impregnable) city walls. They also had a decent navy, something which the Muslim invaders had not yet developed. Remember, Byzantium had tons of cash flowing in from the east (on the Silk Road) and eventually from the West, once trade picked back up in the 700s-900s. Like all cities in the Early Middle Ages, Byzantium declined in population and prestige, so one had to assume that the once massive city was as shell of itself during this time.

There was also a rash of earthquakes on Crete -- called the Early Byzantine Paroyxsm (EBP if you want to avoid spelling paroyxsm as much as I want to avoid spelling paroyxsm).

[son_of_montfort]

SOm if you aren't inclined to read through Norwich;s work on the East Romans, your university should have a copy of CWC Oman's Art of War in the Middle Ages.  Preferably the two volume work.
The section on the Byzantine army is quite good.

If I wasn't working on an article, I certainly would. But I'll be reading up on the medieval notion of "public good" in relationship to private property.

[Gusington]

Do a review SDR!