German Annexation of Czechoslovakia ?

Started by Jarhead0331, January 16, 2023, 03:07:28 PM

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Jarhead0331

Historically, we know that Czechoslovakia lost its independence and was occupied mostly by Germany (in addition to Poland and Hungary) without a fight. I think that the scenario creates a really interesting opportunity for wargaming though, if there had been armed resistance. While there is no doubt Germany would have won, it most likely would have suffered significant losses that could have had major consequences in the larger European war. What if the Sudetenland had not been annexed and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia never created? What if Germany had to face the Czech fortification system and 30 Divisions of troops, all while bad weather grounded the Luftwaffe?

Are there any games that have a "what-if" scenario of this nature?  :headscratch:
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ArizonaTank

I know there have been a handful of boardgames on the subject. S&T, One Small Step's Counterfact and XTR magazines each had magazine games on the subject.

One of the themes I have read (I can't recall exactly where at the moment) was that Germany would have had a hard time attacking the bunker line and a win was not guaranteed. Mostly on a logistical / organizational basis. The speculation I read was that the Germans did not have ammunition for a sustained operation in '38. Logistically, the Germans were barely ready for Poland in late '39. Also, I think the Germans still had some issues with the quality of their armored units in '38.

 
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smittyohio

Hitler to Goering - "C'mon, it's Czechoslovakia. We zip in, we pick 'em up, we zip right out again. We're not going to Moscow. It's Czechoslovakia. It's like we're going into *Wisconsin*."

Jarhead0331

Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 16, 2023, 03:55:46 PMAlso, I think the Germans still had some issues with the quality of their armored units in '38.


The heaviest tank in the German inventory at the time was the Panzer II, which was only armed with a 2cm KwK 30 and an MG34.  The Panzer IIIs and IVs were still in production.
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JasonPratt

Quote from: smittyohio on January 16, 2023, 05:31:43 PMHitler to Goering - "C'mon, it's Czechoslovakia. We zip in, we pick 'em up, we zip right out again. We're not going to Moscow. It's Czechoslovakia. It's like we're going into *Wisconsin*."

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JasonPratt

Sampstra of Sampstra Games is Czech, and was showing off one of the missions from one of the recent Panzer General Successors (I know it isn't OOB:Blitz, or Strategic Mind:Blitz, but I forget if it's UoC2:Blitz or PzCrp2) where you have to shepherd a peaceful blitz into Cz without hurting anyone, taking places as fast as possible.

The campaign in Maneuver Warfare starts with an optional hypothetical Czech invasion. This can also be played as three scenario missions. (The game system is an interesting recent attempt at edging into the CommandOps2 market, especially since its campaigns so far have all been early war.)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR, lots of screenies.

Jarhead0331

Quote from: JasonPratt on January 16, 2023, 06:41:46 PMThe campaign in Maneuver Warfare starts with an optional hypothetical Czech invasion. This can also be played as three scenario missions. (The game system is an interesting recent attempt at edging into the CommandOps2 market, especially since its campaigns so far have all been early war.)

Good call on Maneuver Warfare. The Czech scenarios are actually a part of a DLC mission pack that I conveniently already have in my library. I never really had a reason to install this...until now!
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Sir Slash

I believe TOAW 4 had a, or some, Czech 1938 scenarios. The real question was if a German invasion would've resulted in France coming in to support the Czechs in time to save them and what would the Brits have done?
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The_Admiral

The difference instances of TOAW certainly have this one - I for one remember seeing one of these 20 years ago already (with risk of Soviet intervention, etc...).

Ah found it:



Full description


Fall Grun 1938
Czechoslovakia - first to fight

Designer: Daniel Peter

peter.daniel@jw.se

TOAW-3 ver. 3.0.0.0

:: PBEM ::
:: German PO ::

Date: Sept 15th, 1938
Location: Czechoslovakia
Map scale: 10 km per hex
Time scale: half week turns
Unit scale: Battalion, regiments, brigades
Length: 20 turns

UNIT COLOURS
German army
2nd army: Black on grey
8th army: Grey on grey
10th army: White/blue on grey
12th army: Red on grey
14th army: White/black on grey
SS LAH regiment: Red on black
Luftwaffe incl 7. Flieger div.:
White on light blue
Sudeten guerillas: White on white
Kriegsmarine (!): Blue on blue

Czech army
1st army: Light green on green
2nd army: Black on green
4th army: Yellow on green
Rychle (fast) division: Blue on green
Fortress units: White on olive
Czech air force: Green on olive
Soviet Exp force: White on red

EVENTS
* The scenario starts one or a few days before the outbreak of war. This allows the players to redeploy some of their troops, fortify, etc.

* France, USSR and Great Britain are allied with Czechoslovakia, and will declare war on Germany when it invades Czechoslovakia. If the Czechs put up a good defense, its allies may send reinforcements or threaten Germany into withdrawing units, replacements and reserves to bolster  its defenses in the west . If the Czechs seem to be losing, its allies may falter and seek negotiations.

* Germany cannot afford to lose its "showcase" units. Any panzer, SS or Fallschirmjaeger regiment lost will incur severe VP losses. Do not waste these units on suicide missions!

* Losing Ostrava or Bratislava will result in supply reductions for the Czech side.

* If Vienna or Linz should be conquered by the Czechs (very unlikely), the war is over for Hitler.

* If Prague (Praha) is conquered by Germany, there is a strong possibility that Czechoslovakia will surrender.


BACKGROUND
One of the major turning points in the history of the 20th century was the Munich conference. What would have happened if Britain and France had called Hitler's bluff and stood by their promises to the Czech republic? Fall Grun pits an untried Wehrmacht and an even more unready Luftwaffe against a determined and able adversary. At this point in time, Hitler cannot afford a bloody and inconclusive war. While eventual success is virtually guaranteed, a prolonged war will strengthen the allied resolve to oppose Hitler's plans, while fueling the opposition among the general staff.

The stage is set. Will the greatest war in all time be over before it even started?

Comments and improvements are welcome

===***===
Sources:
Strategy and tactics issue 152
Army lists from Micromark(?):
Czech inf div
Czech fast div
German light div 1938
German inf div
German pz div 1936-38
German inf div (m) 1939
WW2 minor forces army lists (www.britishwargames.force9.co.uk)
Czech fortifications
(members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel)
Chronology March-Sept 1938
Hitler's directive for "Operation Green"
(www.st-and.ac.uk/~pv/munich)
Historical TOE lists German inf div 1939-42
Czech inf div 1938
(www.thegamers.net)
Airpower during Munich
(www.geocities.com/Capecanaveral/2072/Munich.html)

The_Admiral

Quote from: Sir Slash on January 16, 2023, 11:08:22 PMI believe TOAW 4 had a, or some, Czech 1938 scenarios. The real question was if a German invasion would've resulted in France coming in to support the Czechs in time to save them and what would the Brits have done?
Haha I was actually doing my research at the same time (had to re-dl TOAW4 for that), good timing  :cool:

Staggerwing

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 16, 2023, 05:48:50 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 16, 2023, 03:55:46 PMAlso, I think the Germans still had some issues with the quality of their armored units in '38.


The heaviest tank in the German inventory at the time was the Panzer II, which was only armed with a 2cm KwK 30 and an MG34.  The Panzer IIIs and IVs were still in production.

Not to mention that, depending on when the Germans actually invaded, they would have been facing the very tank they later co-opted for their own use, the CKD LT vz. 38, later renamed by the Germans to the Pz 38(t).
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Sir Slash

You're making me want to play that one Admiral.
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

bobarossa

This thread reminds me of a story in Churchill's first volume on WW2.  Hitler wanted to have a parade in Vienna after the annexation of Austria and sent a column of armored vehicles on the road for that purpose. So many of the tanks broke down that the road was a giant traffic jam.  They had to ship the vehicles by RR to have the parade!  This was less than 6 months before occupation of Sudetenland. 

Phantom

I believe TOAW 4 had a, or some, Czech 1938 scenarios. The real question was if a German invasion would've resulted in France coming in to support the Czechs in time to save them and what would the Brits have done?

I think they'd have done nothing, as they were no more ready to intervene in 1938 than they were in 1939 (politically or militarily) regardless of how Germany handled the campaign, indeed if Germany had struggled it may have been a disincentive to get involved.

Senex

As I recall, the German generals were so convinced that they would lose a war against France and England over Czechoslovakia in 1938 that they intended to overthrow/assassinate Hitler if he tried to start one.  Munich saved Adolph's bacon in more way than one.