Three years of college paid for...

[Steelgrave]

I don't believe that ONLY the poor has a culture of entitlement - the wealthy and middle class has their own interests they want protected by the government (or authorities). History is marked and often driven by the clashes of interests between different groups for support of the ruler/ruling class/government.

That's pretty difficult to argue against. Good point, SoM. Damn, this keeps up and we will be singing "Kumbaya" and roasting marshmellows by the campfire.

I've been re-editing my dissertation the past 10 days. Can you tell what one of my theoretical arguments might be?  ;) I'm debating if we should have a NYC trip of the jokers here to my defense (Gus is already in). But I wouldn't want LB to leap up and declare the room communists (room full of academics) or for Smuck to start an anti-contraception rally (Catholic University).  Is it sad that I actually think you, Steelie, would be the best behaved? ;D

every once in a while I truly get all uppity about the level of taxes I pay.... and then I realize that Daniel is alive, fed, cared for and engaged in a meaningful way - all at the benevolence of public taxes and largess. My large tax payout becomes more meaningful when seen that way to me.

Personal experience has a way of changing perspective. Although, in America, you would be surprised at the number of people who got their start with their parents on welfare programs, who grow up to rail against welfare programs. My generation is particularly weird about it...

What can I say? I clean up nice.  ::)

[LongBlade]

I don't believe that ONLY the poor has a culture of entitlement - the wealthy and middle class has their own interests they want protected by the government (or authorities). History is marked and often driven by the clashes of interests between different groups for support of the ruler/ruling class/government.

That's pretty difficult to argue against. Good point, SoM. Damn, this keeps up and we will be singing "Kumbaya" and roasting marshmellows by the campfire.

Kumbaya? Bah, humbug.

He'd be better off flying a Gasden Flag in his front yard than singing.

Jeez, Steelie, singing? You're starting to sound like a Commie, too!

[Steelgrave]

I don't believe that ONLY the poor has a culture of entitlement - the wealthy and middle class has their own interests they want protected by the government (or authorities). History is marked and often driven by the clashes of interests between different groups for support of the ruler/ruling class/government.

That's pretty difficult to argue against. Good point, SoM. Damn, this keeps up and we will be singing "Kumbaya" and roasting marshmellows by the campfire.

Kumbaya? Bah, humbug.

He'd be better off flying a Gasden Flag in his front yard than singing.

Jeez, Steelie, singing? You're starting to sound like a Commie, too!

Well, you know they're all about infiltration, right?

Only with SoM and me....who's infiltrating whom....hmmmm.....and why does that sound dirty?

[LongBlade]

every once in a while I truly get all uppity about the level of taxes I pay.... and then I realize that Daniel is alive, fed, cared for and engaged in a meaningful way - all at the benevolence of public taxes and largess. My large tax payout becomes more meaningful when seen that way to me.

Caring for those who truly need it is a legitimate function of government.

Encouraging a poor, ignorant woman to have fifteen kids? That's a broken system.

[son_of_montfort]

Only with SoM and me....who's infiltrating whom....hmmmm.....and why does that sound dirty?

Let's agree to never speak of this again.

[Steelgrave]

Agreed and agreed to the previous two posts....

[Bayonet_Chris]

I don't believe that ONLY the poor has a culture of entitlement - the wealthy and middle class has their own interests they want protected by the government (or authorities). History is marked and often driven by the clashes of interests between different groups for support of the ruler/ruling class/government.

That's pretty difficult to argue against. Good point, SoM. Damn, this keeps up and we will be singing "Kumbaya" and roasting marshmellows by the campfire.

I had a mini-rant about this subject queued up last night, but after a few deep breaths I backed out. Basically, the bureaucratic mess that is state and federal government has all of the same problems with large corporations, the main difference being that large corporations can get away with a lot more (governments can't really lay people off, although I suppose cutting funding to social services meant to target "undesirable populations" is pretty close).

Regardless, we suck a problems like these because we, as a people and a government, focus too much on the methodology and not enough on the actual goal or objective. Ideological or philosophical ideals get in the way of solutions (much like process gets in the way of solutions within a massive bureaucracy). Instead of incompetent middle managers and project managers, we get politicians who are ignorant about the problems and quite happy to offer a solution regardless.

Everyone has their own interests that they seek to protect. Unfortunately, the signal to noise ratio is way out of whack. The "solutions" we end up with aren't really geared to solving a problem as much as placating various interests so they appear they're doing something without actually taking a risk. Again, this is so much like working in a large corporation it's laughable.

[LongBlade]

I don't believe that ONLY the poor has a culture of entitlement - the wealthy and middle class has their own interests they want protected by the government (or authorities). History is marked and often driven by the clashes of interests between different groups for support of the ruler/ruling class/government.

That's pretty difficult to argue against. Good point, SoM. Damn, this keeps up and we will be singing "Kumbaya" and roasting marshmellows by the campfire.

I had a mini-rant about this subject queued up last night, but after a few deep breaths I backed out. Basically, the bureaucratic mess that is state and federal government has all of the same problems with large corporations, the main difference being that large corporations can get away with a lot more (governments can't really lay people off, although I suppose cutting funding to social services meant to target "undesirable populations" is pretty close).

Regardless, we suck a problems like these because we, as a people and a government, focus too much on the methodology and not enough on the actual goal or objective. Ideological or philosophical ideals get in the way of solutions (much like process gets in the way of solutions within a massive bureaucracy). Instead of incompetent middle managers and project managers, we get politicians who are ignorant about the problems and quite happy to offer a solution regardless.

Everyone has their own interests that they seek to protect. Unfortunately, the signal to noise ratio is way out of whack. The "solutions" we end up with aren't really geared to solving a problem as much as placating various interests so they appear they're doing something without actually taking a risk. Again, this is so much like working in a large corporation it's laughable.

Good encapsulation, Chris.

IMHO the wholesale cut is the best method. Hand out a 10% budget cut across the board and tell each Secretary to come back in 45 days with a solution. Let them figure out if we really need to be giving Maine money to study blueberries or not.

Do that for a couple of years and we'll get where we need to be.

The solutions will probably suck, but we will fix the overall problem. Then we can figure out how to clean up the rest of the mess.

[son_of_montfort]

Everyone has their own interests that they seek to protect. Unfortunately, the signal to noise ratio is way out of whack. The "solutions" we end up with aren't really geared to solving a problem as much as placating various interests so they appear they're doing something without actually taking a risk. Again, this is so much like working in a large corporation it's laughable.

Welcome to the echo chamber of the modern age.  ;) You didn't have to worry about that signal to noise ration in the middle ages.

I'm also not a big believer in the objective or goal centered solutions in politics (not to contradict you B_C). The reason - too many goals and whose goals do you put as prime? You hit that problem with the statement above - it is impossible to achieve a goal when everyone makes every variation of his or her goal heard and known. Worse yet, there are so many people who have no intrinsic goals, so they mimic (and often poorly) the goals of others. The media has become a powerful tool of goal assignment without being a tool for goal-based education (saying YOU WANT THIS, but not YOU WANT THIS BECAUSE OF...).

I think the problem we have is that we don't listen to historians or learn from history. We have been here before folks, this isn't all new territory.

[Bayonet_Chris]

Everyone has their own interests that they seek to protect. Unfortunately, the signal to noise ratio is way out of whack. The "solutions" we end up with aren't really geared to solving a problem as much as placating various interests so they appear they're doing something without actually taking a risk. Again, this is so much like working in a large corporation it's laughable.

Welcome to the echo chamber of the modern age.  ;) You didn't have to worry about that signal to noise ration in the middle ages.

I'm also not a big believer in the objective or goal centered solutions in politics (not to contradict you B_C). The reason - too many goals and whose goals do you put as prime? You hit that problem with the statement above - it is impossible to achieve a goal when everyone makes every variation of his or her goal heard and known. Worse yet, there are so many people who have no intrinsic goals, so they mimic (and often poorly) the goals of others. The media has become a powerful tool of goal assignment without being a tool for goal-based education (saying YOU WANT THIS, but not YOU WANT THIS BECAUSE OF...).

I think the problem we have is that we don't listen to historians or learn from history. We have been here before folks, this isn't all new territory.

No, you're absolutely right. I don't think you're contradicting me either. I tend to find a lot of humor in life, often in unexpected (or unwanted, depending on who you ask) places. The Law of Unintended Consequences is one of my favorites. Solving problems through hard-line, strict ideological goggles often results in hilarious disaster due to this. Kind of like the mass exodus of migrant workers from Alabama in response to their strict immigration laws causing an economic hit to the agricultural sector because no one could harvest the crops. 

There is some conflict over what goals to choose, no doubt. The problem is that, to quote a half-vampire character, "Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill". People will rail against their own interests time and time again in response to some imagined fear or taboo. Democracy is wonderful and messy. The diversity and variance that gives it strength is the same thing that can bring it crashing down in a self destructive panic.

Going with a hierarchy of needs model, people will always fall back to basics (food, water, shelter) and security when threatened, whether or not the threat is real. It's the oldest trick in the book.

[Windigo]

Only with SoM and me....who's infiltrating whom....hmmmm.....and why does that sound dirty?

Let's agree to never speak of this again.

it looks dirty too