Tease.....

[Arctic Blast]

Most of the games in this series have those little story elements, so it isn't like this is new for this PC version. It can be events triggered by gaining line of sight to a hex, entering a building, capturing an objective, or sometimes rolling against a random results table. Sometimes it's an ambush, sometimes reinforcements showing up, sometimes a lone French veteran of WW1 running out with an ancient rifle when he sees US paratroopers and shouting his fool head off until every German in the area has been alerted (yes, that actually is one). It all just adds a nice little extra bit of flavor to the scenario. It certainly has nothing to do with some ridiculous notion of 'Nazi-centricity'.

[GJK]

I remember that the little girl issue came up 4 or 5 or more years ago when computer Band of Heroes put out some of the very first screenshots.  Walker was told how stupid the story was back then and frankly I'm surprised that he didn't listen and it's still in there.  Adding a storyline to the scenario is cool.  ASL has done it since back in the Squad Leader days with the scenario intro and then the historical outcomes, but putting in a little girl - that opens up the door to all kinds of whacky speculation.  "Are the Germans saving her from rape and torture by the Soviets??".  "What will the Germans do with this little girl once they've secured her away from the immediate area?".  The only games that a pre-teen little girl character belongs in is the Game of Life (when you add the baby to the back of your car) and the Barbie and Skipper shopping game.

[Staggerwing]

Hey! I only picked one nit. Let's not get carried away here...  ;)

[JasonPratt]

I don't suppose this whole little girl story could be possibly historical, could it? If someone did a L&L mission where a western Soviet town resisted the German advance for a victorious number of turns, and the writers said at the end that the town had to surrender anyway but because they lasted so long ADOLF FREAKING HITLER HIMSELF CAME OUT TO CONGRATULATE AND HONOR THEM, would anyone think that was a goofy plot, too?

Because that actually no kidding happened. (I think I recall seeing that on the documentary "Russia's War: Blood on the Snow". In color footage no less, if I recall correctly.)

[tgb]

I thought Hitler had died in that movie theater by then.

[GJK]

I'm just saying - it opens up doors that need not be opened as hence we've seen 5+ years ago and still do to this day.  A story line is fine and adds to the immersion, sure.  A little girl in a male dominated niche market (males most likely 35+) that covers WWII on the Eastern Front does nothing to entice someone that would be interested in this game series to want to play it more.  If a scenario had Hitler arrive on the battlefield and his counter could come under attack, then that would be something that might entice more wargamers; whether that is historically accurate or not.

[SgtRock]

In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.

[GJK]

In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.

We are close to getting into what is the equivalent of the "Milan 18" thread for ASL that is 100 pages long on Gamesquad here.  Yes, yes, yes, civilians were unfortunate casualties of war at extremely high rates back in WW2 but do we want to simulate that?  You make my point here.  As Grogheads, we want to simulate the nicer points of warfare, soldiers killing soldiers!

At any rate, I'll dr
top out of the conversation unless called upon directly.  I am looking forward to seeing how well this game is received.  I think that it can be both a blessing and a curse for similar games depending on the success of this release.  I think what hinges most on that is the strength of the AI.  IF he computer opponent can put up a good fight each time (and doesn't become predicatble) then I think that this will be a great game.  IF the computer AI is weak or easily overcome and thus the best/only way to play this is vs live opponents, then I don't see any advantage of this over the VASSAL module other than rules enforcement.  And if that is worth the cost of the game alone, then I anxiously await the reviews that compare the two.

[JudgeDredd]

...where a western Soviet town resisted the German advance...at the end that the town had to surrender anyway...

If there's any truth in Anthony Beevors book Berlin I can say there are likely an awful lot of Russians and villages that may well NOT have resisted German occupation if they knew how they were going to be treated by their own countrymen when they were eventually "rescued" by them!

[JasonPratt]

I thought Hitler had died in that movie theater by then.

Heh, I saw what you did there.

[tgb]

They've just opened up the books and are looking for more beta testers.  Here's a chance for those of you bitching about the campaign to have your voices heard  before release.

[SgtRock]

In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.

We are close to getting into what is the equivalent of the "Milan 18" thread for ASL that is 100 pages long on Gamesquad here.  Yes, yes, yes, civilians were unfortunate casualties of war at extremely high rates back in WW2 but do we want to simulate that?  You make my point here.  As Grogheads, we want to simulate the nicer points of warfare, soldiers killing soldiers!

At any rate, I'll dr
top out of the conversation unless called upon directly.  I am looking forward to seeing how well this game is received.  I think that it can be both a blessing and a curse for similar games depending on the success of this release.  I think what hinges most on that is the strength of the AI.  IF he computer opponent can put up a good fight each time (and doesn't become predicatble) then I think that this will be a great game.  IF the computer AI is weak or easily overcome and thus the best/only way to play this is vs live opponents, then I don't see any advantage of this over the VASSAL module other than rules enforcement.  And if that is worth the cost of the game alone, then I anxiously await the reviews that compare the two.

If you really want to simulate war, then yes, civilians should be in more war games!  Not knowing if that group of people down the road are civilians or friendly/enemy adds a lot vs. old model of John Wayne good guys vs bad. We have a very odd view (black & white) of war in the west, maybe more games, movies, etc should show how uncertain, messy, and unclear war really is. There is a hell of a lot more to a battle or war than just who has the best tanks or planes.

Games like CMFS & CM Afghanistan would have been 10x more real if civilians were included. Civilians had been part of war like it or not from the first war to today, there are a lot of unknowns in war and a civilian showing up wrong time/place, a dog barking giving away your position, etc, etc. War is one the most uncertain of all human endeavors (you can win all the battles and still losing the war).




 

[JudgeDredd]

They've just opened up the books and are looking for more beta testers.  Here's a chance for those of you bitching about the campaign to have your voices heard  before release.

This is a game I'd love to get my hands on - but NOT one I would like to beta test - it would take too much away from the fun when it's actually out

[MikeGER]

Games like CMFS & CM Afghanistan would have been 10x more real if civilians were included. Civilians had been part of war like it or not from the first war to today, there are a lot of unknowns in war and a civilian showing up wrong time/place, a dog barking giving away your position, etc, etc.

IIRC, civilians (density could be set in the scenario) are included in CM series in an abstract way.
They influence spotting, spotting of IEDs (trigger man) and VBIEDs, also there are victory conditions possible that some buildings/areas could not be flattend without a large victory point penalty.

(you can win all the battles and still losing the war)

IMHO, since WW II all wars were lost at the homefront!
Cause of preemptive Political Correctness for the enemy stirred up by some media and the chamberlainien-part of the population, speaking out against a given war.
But who nowadays tenfold their own little view of things against the 'We are determined to win' / 'Don't shad a tear about enemy second-line/bystanders/helpershelper getting damaged' / 'Support the troops' quiet-majority of the population, utilizing those old 'n new media outlets and all kind off news-coverage and enemy propaganda-feed forwarding, against a given war, helping the enemy (who ironically would/or has already killed those very ppl. in-country, if given a chance to infiltrate nonregulars or get an airstrike through to th e homeland) 

In Guerilla warfare (now called asymetric war) the regular faction has to win, the Gurilia only has to last ...to win in the end

PS: could someone pleeease change the thread title ! ... i allways thing its about Lingerie, seeing the title + the number of posts and views  ;) 

[Zulu1966]

In every war that I know of, more civilians died than soldiers, so isn't it kind of odd/convenient that more war games don't include them? War is a nasty business and that is one hell of a reminder.

We are close to getting into what is the equivalent of the "Milan 18" thread for ASL that is 100 pages long on Gamesquad here.  Yes, yes, yes, civilians were unfortunate casualties of war at extremely high rates back in WW2 but do we want to simulate that?  You make my point here.  As Grogheads, we want to simulate the nicer points of warfare, soldiers killing soldiers!

At any rate, I'll dr
top out of the conversation unless called upon directly.  I am looking forward to seeing how well this game is received.  I think that it can be both a blessing and a curse for similar games depending on the success of this release.  I think what hinges most on that is the strength of the AI.  IF he computer opponent can put up a good fight each time (and doesn't become predicatble) then I think that this will be a great game.  IF the computer AI is weak or easily overcome and thus the best/only way to play this is vs live opponents, then I don't see any advantage of this over the VASSAL module other than rules enforcement.  And if that is worth the cost of the game alone, then I anxiously await the reviews that compare the two.

If you really want to simulate war, then yes, civilians should be in more war games!  Not knowing if that group of people down the road are civilians or friendly/enemy adds a lot vs. old model of John Wayne good guys vs bad. We have a very odd view (black & white) of war in the west, maybe more games, movies, etc should show how uncertain, messy, and unclear war really is. There is a hell of a lot more to a battle or war than just who has the best tanks or planes.

Games like CMFS & CM Afghanistan would have been 10x more real if civilians were included. Civilians had been part of war like it or not from the first war to today, there are a lot of unknowns in war and a civilian showing up wrong time/place, a dog barking giving away your position, etc, etc. War is one the most uncertain of all human endeavors (you can win all the battles and still losing the war).

Well, personally I can live without my wargames simulating killing civillians. In any event - what would be the point of it ? Do the germans get points for killing more civillians ? that was after all in many cases a specific objective of theirs. As was allied bombing - which again is simulated to a certain degree in games that cover that.

In any event - CM and CMSF do simulate it to a certain extent in that you can set certain objectives to lose you points if you destroy them. So that building in the middle of town is a refugee camp and if you detraoy it you lose points. I dont see the point of graphically depicting that.

Yes - war is a nasty business - but watch a few of the more graphic videos from the conflict in syria and see just how many light years away any wargame is from simulating just how bestial and nasty it actually is - so its a moot point to a large extent.