Matrix Games, Whatever Are You Thinking?

[tgb]

So now Johan from Paradox is weighing in, and he's being a real douche about it:

We based the pricing on what we know usually nets a decent amount of sales, but the game had some problems which made it impossible to turn a profit.

a) It was enormously costly in development, even disregarding the costs AGEOD had before we bought them, we still had to fund another 18 months of development in total on the game.

b) The game had really bad reviews, 70 at metacritic is a kiss of death.

c) Bad word of mouth, due to awkward interfaces, and very slow game-turns.

And when a game can not even sell 10,000 copies in the first 3 months, it does not matter what you price it.

.....In hindsight, the game should have been cancelled when we knew how bad Rise of Prussia was doing, and we saw the risks.

Bitter, much?

[Bismarck]

PoN should have been my go-to game - Wars of Unification and all that - but I found it to be a Herculean effort to play. Most of you know I'm not afraid to work with a game but there are limits. I can't believe Slitherine, masters of the quick buck, carries this game.

[Tuna]

I think most people are really upset because their price is 'higher' than their initial price... 24 bucks isn't bad if the game is in good condition at this time.. You know AGEOD always supports their games for years after release (look at ACW). Unlike other Old High Priced Matrix titles like SPWAW, WITP (non AE), there is no support on them, do not understand their high prices. Slitherine in general for 'new' games seems to be priced more reasonable, not like the Matrix size. I guess the telling point will be how much ACW 2 costs at the starting bell.

I bought this game when it came out for 20, because it was AGEOD.. I haven't really played yet, because at the time it had all those issues.. Again it was AGEOD, I figured some day they would fix it so I really wasn't upset. All this talk about it has gotten me interested in giving it a try.

[undercovergeek]

All this talk about it has gotten me interested in giving it a try.

phew glad its not just me - im looking for something to fill the time between PBEM turns and the recent discussions here for a game that cost me £4.99 by the way have spaeked my interest. My only issue is its a massive game and theres just 1 half complete tutorial AAR to follow, its read that or just jump in and hope for the best

[Bismarck]

Let us know how it goes for you, Tuna.

[JudgeDredd]

My ONLY beef is the continual "niche market" statements and the seeming determination to keep it that way.

AGEoD's games are well worth the price (if of course you like the theme, scale and the engine) and I don't even mind about the price

WHat I do mind is being treated like an imbecile..."don't worry everyone - we'll stop it being sold everywhere else - reducing your choices - and you can only buy it from us" banged alongside the statement "you just have to trust us - we're the good guys"

meh

[Tuna]

My ONLY beef is the continual "niche market" statements and the seeming determination to keep it that way.

AGEoD's games are well worth the price (if of course you like the theme, scale and the engine) and I don't even mind about the price

WHat I do mind is being treated like an imbecile..."don't worry everyone - we'll stop it being sold everywhere else - reducing your choices - and you can only buy it from us" banged alongside the statement "you just have to trust us - we're the good guys"

meh

Yeah, I think this is the second time that when someone mentioned a sale elsewhere Slitherine turned around and had it removed, forget if it was Gamers Gate or where ever, but seemed kind of rude.. Almost like people should keep their mouth shut about mentioning any sales with regards to anything on 'their' catalog.

[undercovergeek]

My ONLY beef is the continual "niche market" statements and the seeming determination to keep it that way.

AGEoD's games are well worth the price (if of course you like the theme, scale and the engine) and I don't even mind about the price

WHat I do mind is being treated like an imbecile..."don't worry everyone - we'll stop it being sold everywhere else - reducing your choices - and you can only buy it from us" banged alongside the statement "you just have to trust us - we're the good guys"

meh

yeah - this pissed me off

"These detailed games are never going to sell to a mass market, but they do make money. They have their niche and this is where they need to stay. In their niche they can command reasonable price that makes development sustainable and profitable. They do not need to sell 10,000 units in 3 months to break even. The tail is much much longer on these games and 2-5 years on you can still get significant revenues if you keep faith, support them and don't heavily discount."

Hello, you do know we can see this on the matrix forum yes? - you know you just typed in 'we can shaft them for years on the price if we say its niche' - he does know he typed that in doesnt he?

[undercovergeek]

My ONLY beef is the continual "niche market" statements and the seeming determination to keep it that way.

AGEoD's games are well worth the price (if of course you like the theme, scale and the engine) and I don't even mind about the price

WHat I do mind is being treated like an imbecile..."don't worry everyone - we'll stop it being sold everywhere else - reducing your choices - and you can only buy it from us" banged alongside the statement "you just have to trust us - we're the good guys"

meh

Yeah, I think this is the second time that when someone mentioned a sale elsewhere Slitherine turned around and had it removed, forget if it was Gamers Gate or where ever, but seemed kind of rude.. Almost like people should keep their mouth shut about mentioning any sales with regards to anything on 'their' catalog.

theres one locked on the PON forum now - a guy has posted quoting cheaper prices elsewhere - its been closed with a witty comment about it not been helpful - oh ****ing really?? then lower your price you twat - quick, quick delete all comments about buying the game cheaper elsewhere then noone will think to use this internet thing to look for cheaper prices theyll just give us money hand over fist

[Bismarck]

I just checked PoN prices. $25 isn't all that bad if you know what you're getting into.

[Anguille]

25$ isn't expensive, even for an"older" game. Ageod said they would still work on it. Even a higher price would have been ok imho. The orginal price was ridiculously low for such a game. I prefer to see Ageod wih Matrix as they believ in their  games which is not was Paradox did it seems. Iain is. Right in the sense that a game like rise of Prusia is unlikely going to interest non-wargamers. Imho, games can be more expensive until a newer game comes out. For instance, i would drop the price of ACW when the new AACW2 comes out this year.

[Arctic Blast]

Sorry - I rarely do this - but I thought this was worth repeating to prove my point - that some in the market seem fixated on the term "niche" and keeping wargaming there!

This was posted on a thread re pricing on Matrix about PoN (my bold)

...
These detailed games are never going to sell to a mass market, but they do make money. They have their niche and this is where they need to stay.
...

This is the same sort of nonsense that pops up from time to time on Boardgamegeek in conversations about increasing the popularity of board games. And it's almost always tied in to an implied elitism that 'they' cannot be allowed in because 'they' simple aren't intelligent enough to understand these things as 'we' do. It's complete garbage. And ot just feeds further in to the never ending merry go round. 'We're niche because people outside of our little community aren't interested in what we do...but we don't do anything to possibly entice people from outside of our little community to check out what we're doing'.

I'm hoping that moves like actually releasing a complete bundle for Panzer Corps and expanding simpler games like Battle Academy out to tablets are a sign that MAYBE they're starting to figure things out. But then they shut out any outside sales and viewership of AGEOD stuff and keep spewing the same party line that has ensured they remain in a dark little corner of their own making. Who knows?

So now Johan from Paradox is weighing in, and he's being a real douche about it:

Bitter, much?

You know what? Good for him. He's basically being smacked down by the AGEOD and Slitherine guys as essentially trying to screw AGEOD over. I'd be pissed off, too. Or is he just supposed to smile while being blamed entirely for things?

[Huw the Poo]

Yeah I didn't think it was bitter either.  It was an honest post about what he believes went wrong, which is a hell of a lot more than you get from most publishers.

[Zulu1966]

My ONLY beef is the continual "niche market" statements and the seeming determination to keep it that way.

AGEoD's games are well worth the price (if of course you like the theme, scale and the engine) and I don't even mind about the price

WHat I do mind is being treated like an imbecile..."don't worry everyone - we'll stop it being sold everywhere else - reducing your choices - and you can only buy it from us" banged alongside the statement "you just have to trust us - we're the good guys"

meh

I respect your opinion but a couple of questions - firstly I am really curious to know just why you think, for example,  a product that simulates the military struggles of 1700's prussia isnt "a niche" and wont remain that way ?

Secondly the guy from paradox mentioned not making 10,000 sales for PON - even at the price it was sold at ? So whilst some have supported him in his posting - essentially it just proves what the guys from matrix are saying. That to make the games worth producing - they have to hold their price for longer than other "throw away" games. Even when paradox sold it at the ridiculously cheap price they did, and it was a new game  it still didnt have a the kind of market you are saying could exist for this product.

[JudgeDredd]

Your post is specifically about PoN and mine is not.

I'm talking about wargaming in general

To answer your points specifically though

Wargaming IS a niche market...and it may well remain niche.
I've already gave my own example of how I stumbled into wargaming - so I'm suggesting that discounting older games (much older games?) could get new blood into the genre - and I am proof that it can happen. Sure - that's only one example - but that is exactly how it happened for me. A niche product I wouldn't have bought in a million years (I saw the graphics on the back of the box) sold for - I don't remember - £3.99 something like that. I reckon it's at least a couple of thousand pounds later (maybe more...maybe much more) I'm still buying wargames...all on the back of a £3.99 punt

Regarding your second point - that does not prove discounting the game doesn't work.

One of the reasons I suspect PoN didn't sell the volumes it did wasn't because of price - but because - as always - Paradox threw something out the door that wasn't ready for market. I understand they can't keep funding something forever - but if something isn't fit for market word will get out and it'll bomb. So specificallyabout PoN - I think that's why it didn't sell in vast volumes - even heavily discounted. Forgetting profit for a second - and again specifically about PoN - I would LOVE to see unit sales from release through to the huge discounts. I'd wager (and I'm fully aware it's a guess) that sales went up when the price dived. Because people would be willing to take a punt on a broken product from a good developer for a bargain price - as I did.

So specifically regarding PoN...we have no idea. We do know it was released a mess, word got out, reviews slated it and therefore sales suffered. Still there would've been die hard wargamers buying it on releae knowing what they know about AGEoD and hoping it wasn't as bad as being made out. But I suspect when the price plummeted alot of people who didn't buy would take a punt on it.

I did the very same thing with Sword of the Stars II I think it was. It was released a shambles. I picked it up for a ridiculous price on Steam - even though it was still broke - because I was aware it was going to be fixed and I wasn't losing much

I know companies are n't going to make their money from heavily discounting games - and I'm not suggesting they should - especially monster games (WitE, Command Ops). But they will never attract new wargamers at that price. They'll never turn someone into a wargamer at that price.

What I'm suggesting is some of these wargaming companies reduce the price of older titles to try and encourage people in. I can only give my own situation as I mentioned previously and as I also mentioned, I'm not saying that's the norm...what I'm saying is they said demos don't work - and they do. They also said charging more for something makes people put more in - and I'm saying I'm also proof that is not the case.

I'm not suggesting PoN or any other half decent product be heavily discounted - or even discounted at all. I'm saying there's more these companies can do to to bring new wargaming blood into the genre - and keeping old game prices artificially high because it's the only place you can get it doesn't encourage that.

Throw in no demos - and it's a double whammy. The more niche it is, the more they have to ask for these games and the longer they have to do so.

I don't work in marketing or retail. I never have done. I'm speaking as a customer who is the product of exactly what Matrix suggested doesn't work.