Let's Talk: Wargame or Not

[Grimnirsson]

LongBlade,

Within the wargaming genre there are still sub-categories. Generally I create two: tactical and strategic.

That's interesting, I mean you also think we must have sub-categories in an overall wargame category to not have it too broad a term actually saying nothing. I agree of course but I completely fail to see why you then ignore a possible differentiation of wargame vs sim, or the other way round to stick more to the 'figure' of the word itself, of 'war' vs 'game'. To say that a wargame must be a simulation to count as one is shortening both the term and the subject. That's why we think it's quite useful to have under the general Wargame term (used because it's widely known) both the easy game variants, that put more focus on the overall picture of a warfare situation calling them 'wargames' (with the emphasis on the term 'game') and 'consims', still games for sure but having the focus on the details and the accuracy. Which brings me to...

What about Call of Duty? Definitely not a wargame.

Why? Where to start? It's not a simulation. Despite the huge investment in modeling weapons, sounds, rate of fire, and penetration values, a simple glance at the mechanics tells you it's not "real." In many cases it takes two or three bullets to put down an opponent. Looking back to WWII versions even the BAR took at least two direct hits to take out an opponent. Not real. Period.

Real is difficult to define here, what's real? As I said even in a detailed simulation you still have a model of reality and while one may come closer to portray the real thing than another one, it's still not real. In Axis & Allies it's certainly not real how the units move and such but it's a wargame, very easy entry level, more the big picture, no details, no simulation, all game - but still with strategy, in a World War 2 setting, with military units, a military goal and resources only used for the build up of the military and compared to chess not abstract. A Panzer Pusher.

And it will always depend where the focus of simulation actually is. A shooter may very well be a detailed simulation of the weapons used in the game still being a run and gun orgy without any tactical or strategical value or approach. or it may have more generic weapons but allow for deep tactical thinking and giving the players ways to communicate and coordinate like real soldiers in the field. So actually 'a simple glance at the mechanics' is perhaps a bit too short-sighted for defining terms with regard what we discuss here. That's all too subjective and based too much on 'hm, don't know it just doesn't...feel right to me' - having definitions for these things only makes sense if you get a game and can judge it based on the definition and it works more often than not in giving you a satisfying answer whether it fits into the wargame genre or not. And to have such a definition it must use more layers of differentiation than just saying 'it must be a sim and then you have tactical and strategy, that's it'. :)

[Bison]

Grimnirsson I think that is why we see an ever increasing vocabulary of adjectives used to differentiate and catagorize wargames. 

[Bison]

I should add that my favorite adjective in discribing a wargame is Beer and Pretzels.

[bayonetbrant]

The reality is that because there is no overarching controlling authority on "what is a wargame?" there will never be any sort of official definition. This does not mean we are having a useless discussion. But let's just be careful that we don't stray into attacking other people for disagreeing.

{/pre-emptive mod mode}

[Bison]

Do events like the World Boardgame Championships catagorize the games?  Or are they just done by game without regard to catagorization?

[LongBlade]

LongBlade,

Within the wargaming genre there are still sub-categories. Generally I create two: tactical and strategic.

That's interesting, I mean you also think we must have sub-categories in an overall wargame category to not have it too broad a term actually saying nothing. I agree of course but I completely fail to see why you then ignore a possible differentiation of wargame vs sim,

I generally place simulations in their own category. A flight combat sim like DCS A-10 Warthog goes in its own category - different than Combat Mission.

What about Call of Duty? Definitely not a wargame.

Why? Where to start? It's not a simulation. Despite the huge investment in modeling weapons, sounds, rate of fire, and penetration values, a simple glance at the mechanics tells you it's not "real." In many cases it takes two or three bullets to put down an opponent. Looking back to WWII versions even the BAR took at least two direct hits to take out an opponent. Not real. Period.

Real is difficult to define here, what's real? As I said even in a detailed simulation you still have a model of reality and while one may come closer to portray the real thing than another one, it's still not real. In Axis & Allies it's certainly not real how the units move and such but it's a wargame, very easy entry level, more the big picture, no details, no simulation, all game - but still with strategy, in a World War 2 setting, with military units, a military goal and resources only used for the build up of the military and compared to chess not abstract. A Panzer Pusher.

I'd put Axis & Allies in a strategy game category first. Then I'd go to "strategic wargame." And if I had enough games in a Game of the Year nomination I'd make it "best entry level strategic wargame."

And it will always depend where the focus of simulation actually is. A shooter may very well be a detailed simulation of the weapons used in the game still being a run and gun orgy without any tactical or strategical value or approach. or it may have more generic weapons but allow for deep tactical thinking and giving the players ways to communicate and coordinate like real soldiers in the field. So actually 'a simple glance at the mechanics' is perhaps a bit too short-sighted for defining terms with regard what we discuss here. That's all too subjective and based too much on 'hm, don't know it just doesn't...feel right to me' -

First, the quick glance test isn't the only criterion used. However, it's sufficient for ruling out Call of Duty.

Second, the way I see it, I can either be hidebound by definition or I can use common sense.

Red Orchestra might be a decent first-person war simulator but it doesn't get to be called a wargame in my book. Why? For the same reason you don't go to the grocery store and look for tomatoes next to the apricots. It may technically be a fruit, but is neither prepared nor eaten as a fruit. There is a good reason why applesauce isn't used as a topping for pizza.

So it is possible in my judgement to be somewhat subjective and loose with these definitions. And I think that's as it should be.

[Bison]

Slightly off topic but apple pizza is delicious.  Seriously I'm not making this up.  Apple pizza is fantastic.

[Steelgrave]

Damn fine topic Bison and it sounds like we're Grognards.  Let me explain some things and set the record straight for everybody:

1. If you're in your late 40's/mid-early 50's or even your 60's and you started playing Avalon Hill wargames in your teens or early 20's and you still do to this day, then you are an OG.  An Original Grognard. This includes playing today's board wargames from GMT, MMP, CoA, etc.  But not Columbia games.  Sorry, blocks stood on end that you rotate to reflect step losses are not wargames.  Also, it doesn't matter if it had blue and pink counters and was very inaccurate historically; it was and is still a wargame.

2. If you're in your 30's or younger and you play games on your computer or TV screen that includes pointing and clicking; especially at space aliens or zombies, then you are a video gamer.

3. If you've often looked at game catalogs (do they still have those?) or websites with board wargames and thought "I'd like to try those one day but I have nobody to play with and/or I don't have room to set up a boardgame or my cat will destroy the game or my wife won't have that on our kitchen table" then you are a true Grognard wanting to break out.  Go with your emotions and get a good board wargame and damned be the wife.  You can eat dinner on the sofa for a while.

4. I agree with Steelgrave, Blue Bell ice cream (born right here in Texas) is the best damned ice cream on the planet.  I kill for some Cookies'n Cream with a bit of chocolate syrup on it.  Just not near the wargaming table.

I'm just catching up with my morning Grogheads reading and this thread was just at two pages when I went to bed last night! But I'm digging what you said, GJK about "OG"'s, Original Grognards. I like it :) By the way....I lmao when I hear kids used the term "OG" for Original Gangsters....I mean, my grandmother hung out with Pretty Boy Floyd. HE was an OG   8)

Good morning, world.

[LongBlade]

Slightly off topic but apple pizza is delicious.  Seriously I'm not making this up.  Apple pizza is fantastic.

Heresy.

[Barthheart]

Slightly off topic but apple pizza is delicious.  Seriously I'm not making this up.  Apple pizza is fantastic.

Heresy.

QFT!  >:(

[GJK]

Damn fine topic Bison and it sounds like we're Grognards.  Let me explain some things and set the record straight for everybody:

1. If you're in your late 40's/mid-early 50's or even your 60's and you started playing Avalon Hill wargames in your teens or early 20's and you still do to this day, then you are an OG.  An Original Grognard. This includes playing today's board wargames from GMT, MMP, CoA, etc.  But not Columbia games.  Sorry, blocks stood on end that you rotate to reflect step losses are not wargames.  Also, it doesn't matter if it had blue and pink counters and was very inaccurate historically; it was and is still a wargame.

2. If you're in your 30's or younger and you play games on your computer or TV screen that includes pointing and clicking; especially at space aliens or zombies, then you are a video gamer.

3. If you've often looked at game catalogs (do they still have those?) or websites with board wargames and thought "I'd like to try those one day but I have nobody to play with and/or I don't have room to set up a boardgame or my cat will destroy the game or my wife won't have that on our kitchen table" then you are a true Grognard wanting to break out.  Go with your emotions and get a good board wargame and damned be the wife.  You can eat dinner on the sofa for a while.

4. I agree with Steelgrave, Blue Bell ice cream (born right here in Texas) is the best damned ice cream on the planet.  I kill for some Cookies'n Cream with a bit of chocolate syrup on it.  Just not near the wargaming table.

I'm just catching up with my morning Grogheads reading and this thread was just at two pages when I went to bed last night! But I'm digging what you said, GJK about "OG"'s, Original Grognards. I like it :) By the way....I lmao when I hear kids used the term "OG" for Original Gangsters....I mean, my grandmother hung out with Pretty Boy Floyd. HE was an OG   8)

Good morning, world.

Glad that gave you a chuckle.

By the way, shouldn't this thread be in the boardgaming forum instead?  I mean, board wargames are the real wargames!  Not to put yet another slant on what constitutes a wargame and what doesn't.  ;)

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

A pox on chits and counters, I say!  They're relics of a bygone era.  They're the velvet Elvis cave paintings of the genre.  I spent too much money on this PC to play yet another VGA era Tiller rehash.  I want high res, full 3D maps and units, not a digital recreation of a board game.

[Bison]

Slightly off topic but apple pizza is delicious.  Seriously I'm not making this up.  Apple pizza is fantastic.

Heresy.

QFT!  >:(

It's like a pie!  OMG!!!  Sweet, delicious, goodness.

[Bison]

OK.  Distant Worlds.  Wargame or not?  It's a good example of something with components of what has been discussed so far and is something outside of the historical catagory.

[undercovergeek]

Slightly off topic but apple pizza is delicious.  Seriously I'm not making this up.  Apple pizza is fantastic.

Heresy.

QFT!  >:(

It's like a pie!  OMG!!!  Sweet, delicious, goodness.

Peh - the only fruit for a pizza is pineapple

And there is no ice cream but ben and jerrys cherry garcia