Space Hulk Has Emerged From Warp! (Is this gonna be another bug hunt, sir?)

[JasonPratt]

Undo certainly appears bugged. I recommend not using it at all unless absolutely necessary.


Yes, the game is VERY VERY MUCH DEPENDENT ON LUCK!! Which is one of the big randomizing factors of course. Another reason I am coming to strongly prefer the old FPSish version; it's still based on luck but seems to allow more modification for skill. Aimed bolter shots seem to work better; the timing of movements is better and hugely important. Notably, I recall one of the very annoying changes in VotBA being the removal of aiming while making the marines able to slowwly turn to face different directions, effectively making THAT the "aiming" which was ridiculous. I kind of understand why they thought they had to do that, because the quick turns of the suits in the first game seemed very odd for suits which could only plod along, but it destroyed much of the player's ability to properly interact in the world.

(VotBA also put you directly in the game as the officer in charge of the squad, after the rather brilliant tutorial missions, which made it much more difficult to organize the other marines properly. The original FPS put the player effectively in the position of the Colonial Marine lieutenant from Aliens -- often with hilariously similar results.  ;D)

I have to admit, I spent a while this afternoon after work trying and failing to find my old VotBA PC version game (I have the version for PS1 but it's even clunkier than what I recall from the PC version). I guess it's just as well because as much as I want to like that version and its juiced up port of (most of) what made the original FPS adaptation so great, the subtle but crucial gameplay changes just kill the functionality for me.

Fortunately I have the original FPS adaptation installed and running on my laptop. So smooth, such a genius design. Someone could make all the money re-adapting that to modern specs. Don't change anything, just upgrade the graphics (and the sounds a little but not overmuch because the balance was exquisitely perfect; keep the old voice work if possible), tie the missions together properly in-game, allow players to build their own maps, and occasionally sell new campaigns as DLC. Step 2, profit.

[JasonPratt]

Panzerde,

Mmm, I don't think half of it was overly harsh. The review seemed evenly split along two lines:

1.) THE BUGS ARE UNFORGIVABLE!! -- I don't have the bugs (so far) but I can understand and sympathize with that.

2.) THERE IS NO WAY THIS GAME COULD BE PORTED AND ACTUALLY WORK BECAUSE IT NECESSARILY ELIMINATES WHAT MAKES THE GAME GREAT AS A TABLETOP EXPERIENCE!!! -- I'm willing to agree this is a valid if subjective viewpoint. Some of us could never have anyone to play the boardgame with, so (like the Blood Bowl port, once it reached Chaos edition status with some further patching) I'm glad to have it. But I'm becoming more convinced that it doesn't work very well as a computer game per se, not compared to the original computer adaptation back in the Doom days, which kept the concepts of the tabletop game but adapted them to the strengths of a computer presentation.


My provisional recommendation to anyone still on the fence would be

1.) wait until further patching (because the bugs seem very real even though only for people with certain rigs, whatever those are, and there's no way to return the game) UPDATE: NEW PATCH RELEASED WHILE I WAS POSTING, 29.3 Megs

and then

2.) get it on sale, unless you just feel like spending your money on full price to support the devs as thanks for making the game at all.


Possibly also (3) find a safe free version of the original FPS adaptation from SSI (or whoever did it), and run that with Dosbox D-Fend instead.

[Huw the Poo]

Usually I go here: http://www.dlcompare.com/ to check prices and to get an idea of whether the site in question is decent.  They specify if the key is region locked.  Most are region free, although Russian keys seem to be locked due to being a lot cheaper.

This website seems too good to be true!  You say you've ordered from these places a lot?  Which key resellers do you trust?

[panzerde]

My provisional recommendation to anyone still on the fence would be

1.) wait until further patching (because the bugs seem very real even though only for people with certain rigs, whatever those are, and there's no way to return the game) UPDATE: NEW PATCH RELEASED WHILE I WAS POSTING, 29.3 Megs

and then

2.) get it on sale, unless you just feel like spending your money on full price to support the devs as thanks for making the game at all.


Possibly also (3) find a safe free version of the original FPS adaptation from SSI (or whoever did it), and run that with Dosbox D-Fend instead.

I'd agree with all the above.  This is certainly not an "OMFG I HAVE TO BUY THIS" game.  I'd also say the more someone is looking for a faithful computer port of the SH board game, the less they're going to enjoy this game.

[tgb]

Not to derail the thread too badly, but if you are still looking for a board game fix on the PC, Catan-Creators Edition is half the price and seems to be getting pretty good feedback.  The only complaint seems to be no multi-player.

[LongBlade]

One thing becomes clear after playing this game: the Terminators have some of the worst weapons and some of the worst shots in the history of history.

[GJK]

What is this Alien Assault that is free and looks to be very similar?  And yes, I realize that somebody is going to post a link to a 9+ page thread here discussing this game already because surely I'm not the first to stumble across this one.  And don't call me Shirley.

[Arctic Blast]

One thing becomes clear after playing this game: the Terminators have some of the worst weapons and some of the worst shots in the history of history.

It's actually more reflective of how damn quick Genestealers are. Remember that even though they're standing still, that's only to allow the game to remain turn based. They're fast, they can scuttle up walls, and they have super-quick reaction speed. Not easy to hit, even if you have super-powered everything.

So, a few thoughts after playing the tutorial campaign :

-The overall product is solid, and it definitely replicates that whole "ROLL A GODDAMN 6!" feeling of the board game. Of course, it doesn't replicate having your buddy playing as the Genestealers laughing at you. And to be honest, that is kind of missed.

-I was initially annoyed at the presence of an Undo button. "Nothing ratchets up tension like the ability to mess around and re-do stuff!" However, it's needed...because it is WAY too easy go end up with a dude moving where he shouldn't be. I've also run into repeated issues with guys changing their facing for absolutely no reason. For example, I want a guy to move backwards 2 hexes, but he decides to turn around first. Why? Don't know. If I set it to the same facing with him moving backwards, it counts that as needing 6 points, even though I'm not actually changing his facing. ANNOYING.

-Not sure if it's simply due to the small Prequel maps, but the AI just sort of tosses Genestealers at you in dribs and drabs. Oh look, a whole one more...how not really scary at all.

-The game really doesn't do a good job of explaining WHY you missed, unless you read the log. Nowhere does it state in the rules or BEFORE you fire that you roll 2 dice with a Storm Bolter, and you need a 6 to hit. I also don't remember it explaining that melee is a REALLY bad idea because your guy rolls one die and the Stealer rolls 3, and highest number wins. It doesn't mention why jams happen...a double is rolled in Overwatch...just that they do. They really missed the boat on explaining the exact mechanics of how the game work, so anyone who isn't a veteran of the board game isn't going to really know WHY something happened. This seems like a really big miss to me. How hard is it to add a couple of sentences to the rules that explains this? I think this lack of clarity has led to a fair number of the complaints from those who aren't fans of the board game.

-I don't mind the animations of slow-footed Terminators. It does seem odd that there is no way to simply skip them, however. Maybe click again and he's at the end of the movement already?

It seems decent overall, but I definitely have complaints. The glitching with movement and facing needs to be cleaned up pronto. Hell, make me double click to actually set a move...that solves that problem.

[JasonPratt]

This is certainly not an "OMFG I HAVE TO BUY THIS" game.  I'd also say the more someone is looking for a faithful computer port of the SH board game, the less they're going to enjoy this game.

um... okay, well, it seems to be a faithful port to me from everything I've heard so far. Even the RPS guy's complaints weren't that the rules and concepts were faulty, but that there were horrible bugs (for some people, the ones I've seen are minor, and the first patch sure hasn't fixed those yet); and that no computer port of the board game was going to ever be able to port what was (to many players) the most fun aspects -- even though technically everything is there. i.e. the attempt was broken and doomed to fail from the start regardless of any technical proficiency achieved.


But if something isn't there that's in the board game, please be sure to say so! -- out of all the various complaints, I haven't seen anything mentioned like that yet.

[JasonPratt]

What is this Alien Assault that is free and looks to be very similar?  And yes, I realize that somebody is going to post a link to a 9+ page thread here discussing this game already because surely I'm not the first to stumble across this one.  And don't call me Shirley.

Long ago, back when DOW2 had first been released, the dev team Teardown thought they had gotten permission from Games Workshop to remake the computer version of Space Hulk, and even thought THQ was okay with it. Far along into production, suddenly THQ ordered them to drop it. This confused and annoyed everyone, especially since GW backed THQ. (Some months later THQ announced it was going to make its own version of Space Hulk, surprise. ;) Then they went bankrupt. Then whoever got the Space Hulk rights made this port of the boardgame which was just released.)

Teardown finished the overhead map portion of the game, created new lore, kept a lot of the art (with minor copyright evading tweaks) and released it as donateware. If I recall correctly (not having played it) it plays just like the first SH-FPS, except without the FPS part: real-time with a ticking pause clock (which slowly recharges during real time) for plotting squad orders. UPDATE: although now that I look more closely at it, it seems to be turn-based after all (what I thought was a pause clock was a timed end-round button).

It's a quality product and I hear lots of good things about it. If they had been able to include the FPS, which I feel helps the immersion and tension of the original SH-FPS, I'd have bought it from them long ago (i.e. downloaded and donated a full game price). I may still do that. ;)

[JasonPratt]

One thing becomes clear after playing this game: the Terminators have some of the worst weapons and some of the worst shots in the history of history.

The assault cannons are even more goofy than the ones in the old game, although I guess closer to the boardgame rules? -- at least they have more ammo than the old game. (I think I recall them being good for literally six shots, although ammo could be found on the ground on some maps and at least they certainly killed everything down the line for one shot. But in the old game they didn't explode and didn't take forever to reload, and at least they always hit.)


Still, while I understand the agility of the stealers leads to misses, this does not even slightly explain the jamming of the storm bolters, which really ought not to be a problem (nor the limited ammo for the assault cannons since logically they could use the same infinite ammo tech as the bolters.)

Tonight I had my first round of serious bolter jamming, nearly ruining a mission (leading to the death of one of my captains and a heavy flamer). I have to wonder if this is a boardgame rule port, to the effect that once a weapon jams during a turn it's more prone to do so afterward for a while. (I realize the jamming is a core part of the rules, to balance out the Marines vs the stealers.)

Frankly someone should have included a rulebook more clearly explaining things with the game, in several regards. Some of the missions could stand clarifying, too. I'm about to play the "Decoy" mission, which I know for a fact (I confirmed it with my old mission book) involves flaming two targets before leaving the area, and the mission briefing kind of sounds like this is still expected, but nothing on the map indicates it (before mission launch anyway). Also either this or the previous mission has the Marine leader saying only one squad is available for command, when the game clearly shows two (and does in fact have two squads. I was familiar with that mission from the original game, too, and thought man they were trying too hard to make this mission difficult!!--but it was only a bug pointing to the wrong voice file I guess.)

The player isn't supposed to be the "sergeant" either, you're supposed to be the Captain directing the squads and their sergeants. Meh.


Still, I'm having a lot of fun with it, even though I'm planning to pull out the old FPS when I'm done. I bet I could make my little nieces pee in fear with that game!  8)

[JasonPratt]

-Not sure if it's simply due to the small Prequel maps, but the AI just sort of tosses Genestealers at you in dribs and drabs. Oh look, a whole one more...how not really scary at all.

No, that's just the prequel maps.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it's amazing how scary the old computer game made its tutorial maps EVEN THOUGH THE FIRST THREE MISSIONS HAD NO ALIEN THREATS AT ALL!! Literally the only way to die was to accidentally walk into one's own flamer. (Heck, even the sequel/update made the first missions scary despite the screwy control scheme.)

I used to love letting people play the game for the first time, watching their reactions on the first few missions. (Especially if they were familiar with Doom which had been released not long before.) Then they start to wonder when the aliens will begin to appear. Then the aliens start to appear and the players start to freak out somewhat. Then they start getting used to the aliens a bit. Then the game really kicks in. :)

I also don't remember it explaining that melee is a REALLY bad idea because your guy rolls one die and the Stealer rolls 3, and highest number wins.

I recall the odds of a normal fist fight being one in three survival, and I guess that's why. But yeah, I recall it because that rule was explained back in the freaking 90s with the original computer game. THE ORIGINAL COMPUTER GAME IS TEACHING ME MORE HOW TO PLAY THIS THAN THIS GAME DOES!!  >:(

It doesn't mention why jams happen...a double is rolled in Overwatch...just that they do.

Oh? Yep, I had exactly no idea about that at all.

Say what you want about the ambitious Blood Bowl game, but they by God got the rules to the players and made the background dice rolls a little more transparent.

They really missed the boat on explaining the exact mechanics of how the game work, so anyone who isn't a veteran of the board game isn't going to really know WHY something happened. This seems like a really big miss to me. How hard is it to add a couple of sentences to the rules that explains this? I think this lack of clarity has led to a fair number of the complaints from those who aren't fans of the board game.

Very much agreed.

I haven't seen any movement/facing glitches yet, btw. (Other than the incredibly stupid decision to make two spaces backup be a turnaround INSTEAD OF BACKING UP TWO SPACES!! But that's an intentional design decision.) Must be another bug specific to a rig somehow.

[GJK]

But if something isn't there that's in the board game, please be sure to say so! -- out of all the various complaints, I haven't seen anything mentioned like that yet.

I'll take a stab in the dark here, but...

1. You're playing a PC game against a brain-dead AI that doesn't even laugh in your face when you make a bonehead move.
2. Your forefinger is all that is used to play the game so you have no tactile sensation from it.  I.e., you don't even roll the dice or move the figures.
3. You didn't spend a minute on painting miniatures or making a custom game board to enhance the visual for the game.
4. The PC game does everything for you so you have no interaction with the game itself.
5. It's a POS boardgame port that yet again fails because boardgames don't port well to the PC because they are missing a single ingredient....you sitting at a table moving the game pieces and with another person sitting opposite of you doing the same.  Hell, even having to stop to look up a rule becomes kind of cool sometimes actually.

Again, just a guess.  :)

[Arctic Blast]

One thing becomes clear after playing this game: the Terminators have some of the worst weapons and some of the worst shots in the history of history.

The assault cannons are even more goofy than the ones in the old game, although I guess closer to the boardgame rules? -- at least they have more ammo than the old game. (I think I recall them being good for literally six shots, although ammo could be found on the ground on some maps and at least they certainly killed everything down the line for one shot. But in the old game they didn't explode and didn't take forever to reload, and at least they always hit.)


Still, while I understand the agility of the stealers leads to messes, this does not even slightly explain the jamming of the storm bolters, which really ought not to be a problem (nor the limited ammo for the assault cannons since logically they could use the same infinite ammo tech as the bolters.)

Tonight I had my first round of serious bolter jamming, nearly ruining a mission (leading to the death of one of my captains and a heavy flamer). I have to wonder if this is a boardgame rule port, to the effect that once a weapon jams during a turn it's more prone to do so afterward for a while. (I realize the jamming is a core part of the rules, to balance out the Marines vs the stealers.)

Frankly someone should have included a rulebook more clearly explaining things with the game, in several regards. Some of the missions could stand clarifying, too. I'm about to play the "Decoy" mission, which I know for a fact (I confirmed it with my old mission book) involves flaming two targets before leaving the area, and the mission briefing kind of sounds like this is still expected, but nothing on the map indicates it (before mission launch anyway). Also either this or the previous mission has the Marine leader saying only one squad is available for command, when the game clearly shows two (and does in fact have two squads. I was familiar with that mission from the original game, too, and thought man they were trying too hard to make this mission difficult!!--but it was only a bug pointing to the wrong voice file I guess.)

The player isn't supposed to be the "sergeant" either, you're supposed to be the Captain directing the squads and their sergeants. Meh.


Still, I'm having a lot of fun with it, even though I'm planning to pull out the old FPS when I'm done. I bet I could make my little nieces pee in fear with that game!  8)

Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, any roll of doubles will jam the Storm Bolter. However, this ONLY happens in Overwatch. It's to reflect the fact that they;re blasting away full auto, just hosing down as much area as they can in overwatch, so the gun can jam up.

Sergeants give you a better chance for good CP draws. Not sure if that was mentioned in the rules or not.

The Assault Cannon has ten shots, but blasting away with it Full Auto kills 5 of them in one fell swoop. It can be reloaded once in-mission for another ten shots, then it's out of ammo. The plus is, it rolls 3 dice and hits on a 5 or 6. With the sustained fire bonus, it hits on a 4+. The bad news, in the unlikely event that you roll 3 of a kind the gun explodes. It kills the wielder, and every adjacent Genestealer and Marine needs to roll for damage as well. This whole system works exactly like it does in the board game.

2 differences from the board game that I've spotted : In the table version, at the end of a round all status markers are removed from the board. So Overwatch and Guard stances end, and jams AUTOMATICALLY CLEAR (since they are only supposed to affect Overwatch). Yet in the computer version, you still need to spend a point to clear the jam.

It also seems like Overwatch operates with a permanent Sustained Fire bonus. I've seen multiple Overwatch kills happen with a Storm Bolter rolling a 5. Overwatch doesn't get a to-hit bonus...you need a 6 to kill (5-6 with Assault Cannon). If the first shot misses, subsequent shots at the same Genestealer hit on a 5-6 (4-6 with Assault Cannon). Once it's dead, the next Stealer again is hit only on a 6.

Not sure why they changed those two rules. I get changing rules to make an electronic version work better, but these changes really don't do much in that department.


One good thing I noticed in the first mission : PILES of Genestealers. Ended the mission having killed 26 of the bastards (with one valiant death in the process).

[Jarhead0331]

While I like to encourage discussion, I think this is a lot of talk over a lot of nothing. I'm enjoying the game, for what it is,  and it is pretty much meeting myy expectations, which happened to be pretty low to begin with.

I mean, let's put this in perspective. Its a GW IP handed to a no name developer to make a replica of a boardgame over a very shoert development cycle. Rome wasn't built in a day, so when news broke of an August release, I knew it was going to be little more than a port of a boaedgame.