AGEOD's Espana 1936

[JasonPratt]

I misspoke; I will read Payne's work.

I just picked this up for my Kindle, and have started reading it in preparation for playing Espana 1936. I know next to nothing about the SCW.

Um... early Nazi technology testing, some squiggly paintings, and a guy with eyeballs on his hands, I think? And then Italy invaded.

My impressions are admittedly kind of scattershot. :)

[MengJiao]

I misspoke; I will read Payne's work.

I just picked this up for my Kindle, and have started reading it in preparation for playing Espana 1936. I know next to nothing about the SCW.

Um... early Nazi technology testing, some squiggly paintings, and a guy with eyeballs on his hands, I think? And then Italy invaded.

My impressions are admittedly kind of scattershot. :)

  There's the Mexican Suitcase thing too:

http://museum.icp.org/mexican_suitcase/

[Martok]

  I don't know how trustworthy I am, but I'm not a big fan of AGEOD games as a rule.   For some reason I'm enjoying Espana quite a bit -- first it is a nutty war and second the AGEOD system seems to be working -- there are trains and battleships and various airplanes and armored cars and Anarchists and whatnot.  I'm playing the Loyalists so they don't have much in the way of trained troops or leaders or equipment at the start (maybe 12 serviceable recon planes and 20-30 armored cars).  they do have a nice cruiser, a battleship or two, a few dozen destroyers and some transports.
I knew that historically, the Loyalists missed some chances at sea in the early days so I got the ships out patrolling: result -- missed an amphibious invasion or two I think, had some DDs shot up and Sank a Nationalist Battleship, I think.
In other news -- There are all kinds of "political" options -- for example you play the region card "Send me some Bombers" on the Moscow box which is off on the side under the Fascist Assistance Box and above the "Convoy Zone" Box.  So I imagine I'll be defeated horribly on the first run while I figure out how the various options work.  I thought about asking the Nazis for some bombers by dropping the please send me some bombers card in their box, but so far I'm expecting more from Moscow.  At least it is a big box.

Thanks for the feedback, MengJiao.  So far, this still sounds like one I'm going to have to get. 

[MengJiao]

  I don't know how trustworthy I am, but I'm not a big fan of AGEOD games as a rule.   For some reason I'm enjoying Espana quite a bit -- first it is a nutty war and second the AGEOD system seems to be working -- there are trains and battleships and various airplanes and armored cars and Anarchists and whatnot.  I'm playing the Loyalists so they don't have much in the way of trained troops or leaders or equipment at the start (maybe 12 serviceable recon planes and 20-30 armored cars).  they do have a nice cruiser, a battleship or two, a few dozen destroyers and some transports.
I knew that historically, the Loyalists missed some chances at sea in the early days so I got the ships out patrolling: result -- missed an amphibious invasion or two I think, had some DDs shot up and Sank a Nationalist Battleship, I think.
In other news -- There are all kinds of "political" options -- for example you play the region card "Send me some Bombers" on the Moscow box which is off on the side under the Fascist Assistance Box and above the "Convoy Zone" Box.  So I imagine I'll be defeated horribly on the first run while I figure out how the various options work.  I thought about asking the Nazis for some bombers by dropping the please send me some bombers card in their box, but so far I'm expecting more from Moscow.  At least it is a big box.

Thanks for the feedback, MengJiao.  So far, this still sounds like one I'm going to have to get.

   I would recommend it to anyone who is at all interested in the Spanish Civil War (it attempts to represent a lot about the war) AND knows what they are getting into with an AGEOD game.  In fact it might be absurdly unplayable for somebody who was only a beginner at the AGEODs.  In fact it is probably the most difficult of the AGEODs I have seen.  At least for the Loyalists, which is the only faction I have played so far.  I think I have only kept the Republican Regime going so far by always reviewing what a good Prussian would do under the circumstances -- and I don't mean Frederick, I mean Prince Henry at his best late in the Seven-years war with powerful enemies every where.  So I've made gains up north by drawing the Nationalists south with pretty wild moves.  I don't think I can hold the south, but I've chewed up the railroads and left Seville a heavily bombed and plundered burning ruin.  Yes, the Russians sent in some bombers.  Getting a big army back out of Seville with Nationalists and Italians and Panzers closing in from all sides was interesting, but with the SB-2s blasting the region and the International Bridges and Mixed Brigades coming up, it was just barely possible.
   The  more I think about it, the more it seems that -- for less experienced players -- the Nationalists might be a good way to start playing the game.

[Slick Wilhelm]

some squiggly paintings, and a guy with eyeballs on his hands, I think?

Ooh ooh, I think I know this one! Guernica by Pabblo Picasso, and some painting by Salidor Dali?

What do I win?  ;D

[bobarossa]

some squiggly paintings, and a guy with eyeballs on his hands, I think?

Ooh ooh, I think I know this one! Guernica by Pabblo Picasso, and some painting by Salidor Dali?

What do I win?  ;D

The last one is from Pan's Labyrinth, an extremely good (and bizarre) movie (if you can stand subtitles).

[Staggerwing]

some squiggly paintings, and a guy with eyeballs on his hands, I think?

Ooh ooh, I think I know this one! Guernica by Pabblo Picasso, and some painting by Salidor Dali?

What do I win?  ;D

A DVD of 'Pan's Labyrinth'.


EDIT: Drat! should have read to the last post (on new page). Bobarossa got there waaay before me.

[PeaceFlower]

There is also The Devil's Backbone by the same director. Another very good movie
which is set during the time of the Spanish Civil War. Both movies will stay with
you forever.

[Nefaro]

There is also The Devil's Backbone by the same director. Another very good movie
which is set during the time of the Spanish Civil War. Both movies will stay with
you forever.

Pretty sure Pan's Labyrinth is also set during the Spanish Civil War, although that's obviously not the focus.  ;)

[Boggit]

[Let me rephrase:  I'd not seen a strategic/operational game featuring the SCW til now.]

True. I'm preparing for my review by reading Beevor's The Battle for Spain.

Don't forget he has written two books on it now. IIRC BfS was published in the mid '80's and his later book IIRC in the late '90's. I don't know how they compare together, but it might be worth checking the other through your local library - if it's not closed to the Federal shutdown?? ::) Good author though. :)

Hi Boggit!

I used to have his original book, called Spanish Civil War, published in 1982, and he revised and updated it considerably to have it republished as Battle for Spain in 2006. The more recent one is the better find, though I still think that Hugh Thomas's Spanish Civil War has a lot to offer.

Don't forget Ronald Fraser's Blood of Spain which is simply excellent as an addition to the coverage of the war, being based on interviews with several hundred Spanish participants.

Bill

Thanks for the info Bill. :)

The War is fascinating, given that so many different groups sided with one side or the other. It's hard to actually identify a common agenda from the early days, other than to beat the other side (less so on the Republican side between the Anti-Stalin Communists - the POUM - and the Stalinist PCE), but clearly by the end it had largely degenerated into a war of brutal totalitarian factions on either side (a bit like the war in Syria is going :(). Geroge Orwell (A Homage to Catalonia) concluded that all the idealism had gone by 1937, and there was very little to choose in practical terms between the two sides as regards the outcome for the people. Repression being the inevitable spoil of victory for whoever lost. Ironically, Franco started out as a Conservative, but changed towards an inclusive right wing autocracy by the end of the war (the Falange being a relative minority amongst the Nationalist factions, so some accommodation was a practical compromise). Conversely, the Stalinist PCE ended up dominating the Republicans by the end of the war, being equally extreme as an alternate government.

Whilst I'd say the Nationalist victory was pretty much a foregone conclusion, there were a lot of generals who had doubts as to the likely success of the coup at the outset. I wonder how the game deals with this in balancing a victory, since the cards were definitely stacked in favour of the Nationalists.

I found these documentaries quite insightful...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybAfqYhdhW0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPl_Y3Qdb7Y

[MengJiao]

There is also The Devil's Backbone by the same director. Another very good movie
which is set during the time of the Spanish Civil War. Both movies will stay with
you forever.

Pretty sure Pan's Labyrinth is also set during the Spanish Civil War, although that's obviously not the focus.  ;)

  Pan's Labyrinth was supposed to be happening in 1944, IIRC.

[MengJiao]

[Let me rephrase:  I'd not seen a strategic/operational game featuring the SCW til now.]

True. I'm preparing for my review by reading Beevor's The Battle for Spain.

Don't forget he has written two books on it now. IIRC BfS was published in the mid '80's and his later book IIRC in the late '90's. I don't know how they compare together, but it might be worth checking the other through your local library - if it's not closed to the Federal shutdown?? ::) Good author though. :)

Hi Boggit!

I used to have his original book, called Spanish Civil War, published in 1982, and he revised and updated it considerably to have it republished as Battle for Spain in 2006. The more recent one is the better find, though I still think that Hugh Thomas's Spanish Civil War has a lot to offer.

Don't forget Ronald Fraser's Blood of Spain which is simply excellent as an addition to the coverage of the war, being based on interviews with several hundred Spanish participants.

Bill

Thanks for the info Bill. :)

The War is fascinating, given that so many different groups sided with one side or the other. It's hard to actually identify a common agenda from the early days, other than to beat the other side (less so on the Republican side between the Anti-Stalin Communists - the POUM - and the Stalinist PCE), but clearly by the end it had largely degenerated into a war of brutal totalitarian factions on either side (a bit like the war in Syria is going :(). Geroge Orwell (A Homage to Catalonia) concluded that all the idealism had gone by 1937, and there was very little to choose in practical terms between the two sides as regards the outcome for the people. Repression being the inevitable spoil of victory for whoever lost. Ironically, Franco started out as a Conservative, but changed towards an inclusive right wing autocracy by the end of the war (the Falange being a relative minority amongst the Nationalist factions, so some accommodation was a practical compromise). Conversely, the Stalinist PCE ended up dominating the Republicans by the end of the war, being equally extreme as an alternate government.

Whilst I'd say the Nationalist victory was pretty much a foregone conclusion, there were a lot of generals who had doubts as to the likely success of the coup at the outset. I wonder how the game deals with this in balancing a victory, since the cards were definitely stacked in favour of the Nationalists.

I found these documentaries quite insightful...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybAfqYhdhW0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPl_Y3Qdb7Y

  The game's take on the war is pretty blunt: most of Spain favored the Republic at least at first, but the Nationalists rolled in fast with a lot more firepower and cohesion and coordination.  So that agrees with the standard basic narrative of the War: the Republicans were behind from the start and never really formed a solid force.  In game terms this means if you want a crazy challenge take the Republicans and come up with a way to take the Nationalists down a few pegs early on without losing too much.  then you have a chance to finish them off
  In my first run, I did OK, but I could think of so many things I ought to have done early on that I quit my first run in Early 1937 with the following agenda:
1) Annihilate the Nationalist Navy
2) Carpet Bomb Seville into the Stone Age
3) Blow up every bit of rail line within three hexes of Seville
4) Cut off and Destroy all Nationalist forces North of Madrid
5) Let the Nationalists fool around in the center (from Ciuadad Real to Madrid) and hey, bring those Italians too.
6) Escort in all the convoys of material from the USSR and Mexico
7) Crush the Rebellion

Strangely enough, the AI seemed to sense that this time the Republicans were just plain going to absolutely kill them and all their Italian buddies and the Condor Legion and every last Panzer and the Deutschland too if it turned up looking funny (which did happen: SB-2s hit the Deutschland in 1937).  So the AI pulled out of all of the exposed positions up north and rushed a force to Segovia -- which was promptly carpet bombed into the Middle Bronze Age by French bombers from the late Iron Age.  So the AI avoided my first throw at agenda item 4, though perhaps at the expense of Item 1 if I get to Ferrol and add a third Cruiser to the Republican Fleet.
AND Item 1) does seem to be coming along:  The Jaime I blasted the Espana down to 20% and other Nationalist shipping also has lost every naval engagment big time plus I still hold Huelva -- an airbase there will make things even worse for the Nationalist shipping.
Down South, the AI responded to the blasts around Seville by sending a big army deep to look threatening.  Kind of a bad plan if I concentrate on trapping it, but it will save Seville for the moment.
So...lots of fun in Espana.

[JasonPratt]

There is also The Devil's Backbone by the same director. Another very good movie
which is set during the time of the Spanish Civil War. Both movies will stay with
you forever.

Pretty sure Pan's Labyrinth is also set during the Spanish Civil War, although that's obviously not the focus.  ;)

  Pan's Labyrinth was supposed to be happening in 1944, IIRC.

Sigh. I only know the answer to general questions. What is truth? What is beauty? I don't know the answer to particular questions, like when the Spanish Civil War did or did not happen!

[Bill Runacre]

Thanks for the info Bill. :)

Orwell (A Homage to Catalonia) concluded that all the idealism had gone by 1937, and there was very little to choose in practical terms between the two sides as regards the outcome for the people. Repression being the inevitable spoil of victory for whoever lost. Ironically, Franco started out as a Conservative, but changed towards an inclusive right wing autocracy by the end of the war (the Falange being a relative minority amongst the Nationalist factions, so some accommodation was a practical compromise). Conversely, the Stalinist PCE ended up dominating the Republicans by the end of the war, being equally extreme as an alternate government.

Hi Boggit

I think that the relative ease with which the Communists were removed from positions of political power within Republican Spain in March 1939 by the Casado coup, suggests to me that a Republican victory might have led to a different political set up than the one Orwell was experiencing in the spring and summer of 1937 when the Communists were making their moves to reduce the power of their opponents.

The Communists ultimately lost that power very quickly, and there would most probably have been some kind of reckoning with them like this had the Republic won.

Of course, the big question is whether it might have resulted in a less totalitarian government? I'd say that it probably would have done. Orwell was rather disenchanted when he wrote Homage to Catalonia, and so his views represent those feelings at the time, and I would think that he'd have cheered up had the Communists been ousted after a Republican victory!

[MengJiao]

Are there Germans in the OOB?

  There are some very Germanic Units (Panzer Gruppe Drohe sounds pretty dramatically germanic and I've seen them prowling around on the road to Malaga).  There are also Italian Units.

   Luckily, I started with the Republicans because apparently the Republican AI "regional files" need some work.  there are patches for that coming.  However this doesn't have much impact on me since I've been the human Republican and the Nationalist AI has done well I think.

   The Italians landed at Ferrol up north either because the Republicans have left only two port areas open for the Nationalists: Cadiz and Ferrol (and one other Port up north) or because things looked bad up north.  The Nationalist Air cover (either Italian or German) was over Leon up north, which was wise I suppose, but in the end Leon fell to the massed rabble of the miners -- the worst large group of troops in the game -- so things indeed were bad up north for a while.  It is possible to find troops with less base cohesion than the miners (35/75 IIRC), but you have to look pretty hard.  There's a bunch who I assume are listening to Advanced Classical Music in shifts 24 hours a day (the Cultural y Something battalion from Somewhere Near France), but they are not allowed out of their home listening area due to their cohesion problems.