Need an American Football game....latest version of Second and Ten released.

[GJK]

I agree.  It's almost unacceptable.  The file for the game itself is like 12mb but then you have 100's of mb of "fan made" files for player, stadium, uniform, etc, etc pictures.  I suppose that licensing may be a reason that the game doesn't just come with all of that yet they have the links for them on their website....which I may add is better than for Out of the Park and other text scroller sims in where you have to crawl the forums to find the download links because the game doesn't have the licensing to include the pics/uniforms/stadium in the "official" release.

[Darkspire]

Its a bit old, but I still run this through an Amiga emulator, I am not a 'watch all the games' person (English / poor coverage over the pond) but I do like the game and this always scratches an itch if I have managed to watch a game or two.

TV Sports Football
http://www.cinemaware.com/games/tv-sports-football/
Link to the download is free for a number of prehistoric systems.

As an added bonus most of the Cinemaware back catalog can be downloaded from there and on a modern machine even Rocket Ranger becomes easier to control and play :)

Darkspire

[Toonces]

I know I'm going to be completely tarred and feathered for saying this, and rightfully so I'm sure, but I cannot see the appeal of this over a Madden game. 

[JudgeDredd]

I was gutted Madden dumped the PC  :(

[Grim.Reaper]

I grabbed the 3-day demo last night and tried it out.  After downloading the program itself and about a dozen other "packs" (images for stadiums, players, ref's, fans and season schedules) I found that it was a bit buggy.  A number of times, I couldn't click out of the screen that I was on.  This may be due to my lack of knowledge of the interface, but I was playing a game and had just received the kick.  I went to find the offense screen but could not locate how to pick my offensive plays.  Next thing I know, the computer has the ball on my 40yd line.  <shrug>.  Let's see,  I loaded the season files for college and NFL but I can only get it to see the college seasons.  Once, I could only exit the game with the three finger salute; the "X" for the app window did nothing.  That is all fairly minor stuff, aside from not being able to play the NFL seasons, but probably something I need to do.  The bottom line in my review however was that it was just plain boring.  Take that with a grain because as much as I love baseball, I cannot get into text based baseball sims either.  In this game, you have maybe a dozen plays for offense and few less for defense.  There's some packages that you can run, but in essence, you click once or twice and read the text.  Click to pick, read the text, hope you get a first down.  This just did not hold my attention for long at all (half way into the first quarter).  Just my $.02 on it.

GJK,

It sounds like you might just not be familiar with a number of things within the game, which is understandable if you never played any versions of the game before.  I think most of the things you described is a result of not understand the UI and how the demo works, but I could be wrong.  Few points.

1)  I will say the screens are not 100% consistent on how you close them.  On some screens you use the "x", on others there are buttons in different places on the screen that will close them.  For example there might be a close button, cancel button, ok button, etc.  And in some cases you just switch screens without closing.  This could be cleaned up a bit.

2)  In order to play either the pro or college seasons, you have to restore all the seasons first within the season tools section of the game.  Not sure why the feature works that way, but it does.  Once you do that, all seasons are playable for both pro and college.  After 3 days using the evaluation period, the game will turn into a demo which only allows you to play the 2011 versions of both seasons.  I suspect you didn't have the pro seasons restored correctly.

3)  As for graphics and sounds, just like any other game that is not licensed they can't include them with the game.  These are all user created mods and not created by the developer.  There actually is a separate site that hosts the files but the developer decided to host them on release to make it easier in one place.  Plus I think the other site guy might be stepping down.  Either way, I don't see this as an issue at all because mods in general always require their own install process, especially if created by different people.  The fact so many exist is actually a good thing.

4)  As for gameplay being boring, I think that is up to each person to decide and it is great a demo exists to try before you buy.  The play calling in this game is not extensive as I mentioned in my post compared to some of it's competitors, especially ActionPC Football.  In my opinion that is what makes it different and appealing to a certain group of people.  If you ever played ActionPC, you'll see a ton of options which is good for some people.  But with so many options, it can become a bit overwhelming for people.  SAT has really basic stuff but still results in realistic outcomes and experience.  On offense you can choose from a inside/outside/draw run or different lengths of passes (i.e. screen, long, short, medium, etc.).  You choose the people for the formation and who the primary player is for the play.  On defense, there are actually quite a few options to choose from such as zone, blitzes, man-to-man and a bunch of combos.  Once this is all set, then the play-by-play which is text scrolls with the play results.

At the end of the day, with any game, likely is not going to work for everybody.  However, if you don't even typically enjoy text base games, then this likely will do nothing to change your mind.  For me, I am a sports game nut and have just about all of them that exist so this is just one additional option for me, the others are mostly good too.

[Grim.Reaper]

...and about a dozen other "packs" (images for stadiums, players, ref's, fans and season schedules)...

I can never be bothered with that. I want my game to be a package.

Like there's a free ATC for FSX but needs some work getting setup and all files in...I'd rather pay than go through that nonsense.

Not sure how this is different than downloading user made mods for games.  These mods are created by all different people for use with the game, not officially supported by the game likely because of licensing. It just happens they were hosting them in the same place the main game was purchased and downloaded.

[Grim.Reaper]

Its a bit old, but I still run this through an Amiga emulator, I am not a 'watch all the games' person (English / poor coverage over the pond) but I do like the game and this always scratches an itch if I have managed to watch a game or two.

TV Sports Football
http://www.cinemaware.com/games/tv-sports-football/
Link to the download is free for a number of prehistoric systems.

As an added bonus most of the Cinemaware back catalog can be downloaded from there and on a modern machine even Rocket Ranger becomes easier to control and play :)

Darkspire

wow...blast from the past....I remember that one and how it was supposed to revolutionize football games.  I remember the first person view.

[Grim.Reaper]

I know I'm going to be completely tarred and feathered for saying this, and rightfully so I'm sure, but I cannot see the appeal of this over a Madden game.

I like playing Madden too, although in recent versions kind of getting stale.  Biggest reason people like text based strategy games better than Madden is because Madden is not very realistic.  The computer coach usually makes dumb decisions and it has become more of an arcade game versus simulating true professional football.  Don't get me wrong, like the gameplay and graphics, but if you want a real challenge and play against much better computer AI, text strategy games are the way to go.  Plus, the text games usually have old season you can play (all the way back to the 1930's) where Madden is more about representing only modern football.

There is a place for both in my opinion.

[JudgeDredd]

Its a bit old, but I still run this through an Amiga emulator, I am not a 'watch all the games' person (English / poor coverage over the pond) but I do like the game and this always scratches an itch if I have managed to watch a game or two.

TV Sports Football
http://www.cinemaware.com/games/tv-sport's-football/
Link to the download is free for a number of prehistoric systems.

As an added bonus most of the Cinemaware back catalog can be downloaded from there and on a modern machine even Rocket Ranger becomes easier to control and play :)

Darkspire

wow...blast from the past....I remember that one and how it was supposed to revolutionize football games.  I remember the first person view.

It's not...I don't bother with mods

[Toonces]

I am not sure if this is possible in Madden (I'm not a pro) but I DO like the idea of just playing coach, calling the plays, and letting the AI run the play.  I'm not sure if Madden can do it.  But if it can, then that is what I think I would prefer...basically watching a very cool-looking computer football game.

I get, sort of, the appeal of this type of game, but in this day and age, it is hard to eschew all graphics for simple gameplay.  See the ACW 2 thread for more information.   ;D

[Grim.Reaper]

I am not sure if this is possible in Madden (I'm not a pro) but I DO like the idea of just playing coach, calling the plays, and letting the AI run the play.  I'm not sure if Madden can do it.  But if it can, then that is what I think I would prefer...basically watching a very cool-looking computer football game.

I get, sort of, the appeal of this type of game, but in this day and age, it is hard to eschew all graphics for simple gameplay.  See the ACW 2 thread for more information.   ;D

Yep, you can do coach mode in Madden I believe how you described.....however, the computer coach would still be dumb and not play realistically:)  I just can't stomach watching the CPU down by 7 points with less than 10 seconds left in the game go ahead and kick a field goal.  Or the CPU is up big time in the game and is still throwing the ball all over the field with under a minute to play.....many other crazy stuff it does too like often doesn't manage their time outs smartly.


Now I do agree with you that my utopia would be a graphically looking Madden combined with the smarts of a text base game....that would be perfect!   EA did have that game for awhile called NFL Head Coach or something like that which had promise, but they dumped it.

[Nefaro]

...and about a dozen other "packs" (images for stadiums, players, ref's, fans and season schedules)...

I can never be bothered with that. I want my game to be a package.

Like there's a free ATC for FSX but needs some work getting setup and all files in...I'd rather pay than go through that nonsense.

The only add-ons I ever consider essential are Team Logos. 

Since the professional sports leagues charge two nuts and a kidney for rights to use their logos (if they even approve it), these little indie text sim programmers just put some generic logos in for the teams to avoid copyright issues, and the player base always creates official logos for us to download (legal since they aren't selling them).

It's just another result of the Intellectual Property Wars.

[JudgeDredd]

How long do you think it's going to be before these companies think "Hold on - that guy's making a game, but he's making it moddable so that people can use all the official data? Lets shut that down"

I foresee this in the future. Someone linked to these corporations is going to spot a money making opportunity. Before you know it, developers will have to lock down games to prevent modability.

[FlickJax]

So what is the definitive American Football Management game in comparison to Footballer Manager (Soccer)?

[Nefaro]

So what is the definitive American Football Management game in comparison to Footballer Manager (Soccer)?

Probably Front Office Football 2007, regarding detail.

However, it has some big issues.  The AI opponents can't manage their money & contracts worth a damn.  To the point that they eventually keep making big signings then they end up releasing a bunch of them to get under salary cap.  Some of the sim engine stuff isn't turning out all that well - one of the most notable issues being that wide receivers, with a high value in only one of their many stats, prety much dictate how well the passing game is and therefore wins games.  I personally think there is entirely too many fumbles happening in sim'd games.  Another big issue is how the paycalling works.  It's just a wall of Down situation fields where you enter a percentage chance that the computer will call a certain type of play, along even more whole windows full of further percentage entries for narrowing down the details.  While you can still play out a game manually, and call the plays yourself, the AI still uses this completely unrealistic play-calling matrix so you'll regularly get crazy playcalling like "Defense comes out in a Dime formation, keying heavily on the run" and such.

I'm hoping all these issues are addressed with the new FOF-7 that's supposed to be released around November.  If the guy can manage to fix the AI problems, alone, then it's worth a purchase from me.  I don't give a damn about multiplayer, but there are people who play a lot of leagues, so I'm guessing some time will be spent on tweaking multiplayer stuff, too.  So I don't know just how much AI work will be done.  FOF2007's GUI gets a lot of complaints, but I also think it has some great things going for it.  For one, I like how it only takes a single-click on a players name, in the roster, to open his info window.  It should probably be a right-click like most others, however, so it's kinda backwards.  One other thing I really like is how the interface colors are customizable, and it has a default mix of custom colors for each NFL team.  This last may seem trivial as I mention it, but it really helps the immersion once you add a nice set of official logos.  The other games don't even come close to this level of decoration, even if the others are larger and easier to see the actual text.

On the other hand, I've enjoyed Professional Football Simulator if only because it's sim engine tends to kick out more realistic game stats more often.  However, it also has it's downsides.  The player stats seem a little too generic, and are the same for all positions.  The play-calling is very basic, although watching the in-game playback makes it at least look like a football game being played because it actually shows all the player activity (with dots & player number in them).  Still, if you want to customize your Sim'd Coache's automatic playcalling, you'll have to go through and create a new playbook with only the types of plays you want them to use.  Otherwise you're just selecting a general offense/defense style in a dropdown, for a handful of situations.  Oddly enough, I still kinda prefer this method over the more detailed percentage matrix in FOF because it has far fewer ridiculous calls like the one I mentioned earlier.  Don't get excited about modifying the playbook in PFS, as it's just a big dropdown list where you pick the name of a general type of play (Toss Right, etc).  PFS is still a work in progress, and doesn't have all the little extra details of FOF, however.  There's no training camp settings, as one example.  Coaching staff was the next feature to be added, but work on it seems to have slowed in the past year or so.  I'm still unsure as to how well the AI managers handle their own teams, the salary cap, etc over time but it's still likely a good deal better than FOF2007.  The GUI can still be a pain in this one, if only because you have to constantly click a little tiny 'X' to close info windows all the time.  It also has only a single blue background - no custom colors for each team.

The midget of the bunch is Football Mogul.  It's obvious that their most profitable title has been their Baseball Mogul line since that's where most of their work goes.  FM is the red-headed bastard child that gets little comparable attention.  It's very bare bones.  One of my biggest complaints is that even one of the most important ingredients for running a Career Mode isn't very fleshed out... the Off-Season stuff such as Free Agency, Proper Contract Negotiation, etc.   For example, Baseball Mogul actually has some back & forth contract negotiation going on with the AI-controlled prospect/free agent having some personality traits and the players' wants being modelled.  So you really are wheeling & dealing.  In Football Mogul, players just make a flat rate demand based solely on their player ratings and possibly experience.   You can get their yearly salary lowered by some set percentage by offering more of a signing bonus up front, in a stepped-tier progression of sorts so it's still just a straightforward calculation.  The point I'm  making about contract signing here is that you don't really do any negotiation.  There's not much variation in costs, therefore it's more like you're just renting a player at a few fixed pricing options.  However, there are some good points about Footbal Mogul.  Firstly, it's probably the cheapest (current one is ~$25), although there doesn't seem to be much changed yet from last year, other than new rosters and some adjusted algorithms for creating future season schedules.  A couple new skins and some bug fixes for stuff that has been around for a couple years is supposed to be coming in the first update.  Another part of this game I enjoy is creating your playbook and actually calling the plays in-game.  I often just sim out games, once I have a general strategy lined out for my current crop of players on my team, in these Career management sims.  But Football Mogul has a playbook that actually looks like real plays.  And you can create your own!  I know surprising since it's a big part of football (the play strategies) yet the other two management games don't really give you the tools to get down to the details of play creation.  This one is modular, so there are dropdowns for formation, general type of play, and (most importantly to me) dropdown menus with options for every position on the team, during that play.  I believe the game itself only kicks out a few values regarding the strengths & weaknesses of these plays, and how it plays out on the field, however it is much more fun than just picking some play name from a menu, and especially more so than typing in a hundred different percentages into number fields.  ::)  This way, you can create your own playbook.  As to whether the AI can use your own custom playbook well enough, when you decided to sim the game,  I'm still not sure.  I've had some successful seasons doing that, and some that weren't.  But it's far more immersive, and probably the best thing about Football Mogul at the moment.  Everything else is pretty damn basic, but if you haven't played one of these career sports manager games before, it's also an easy one to get familiar with.  I could say the same for Baseball Mogul, although it's a bit more involved.  Both these games have an easy UI and don't overload you with too much info, so I'd consider FM & BM as the 'Lite' manager games, good for beginners to get their feet wet.  While I've been on the fence about picking up this year's Football Mogul, I'll probably end up getting it to at least check out the new skins and bug fixes and continue offering suggestions about what it needs in the future (aka complaining).  The game sim engine can have some occasionally wonky stuff going on in FM but a watering down of future draft talents' skills was needed and that has reportedly been done for the next update too.  I think the very high average skill ratings of the draftees was starting to make the games become almost a bit too random (like most "finesse" positions being rated 90 to 98 out of 100 within a couple seasons of being drafted).  This is definitely still a work in progress, too, but pretty much all these sports manager games are.  Football Mogul desperately needs more features, though.  I think it could be the best if they ever got around to adding a lot more features, but it's not really progressed much.  :-[

In summary, there is absolutely no equivalent American Football manager game, comparable to IE's Football Manager.  There isn't even one on an OOTP level.  Obviously part of the problem is that the sport is pretty tough to properly simulate in a program.  I also don't think that text management sims have much visibility at all in the US so that doesn't make for much of a player base out to buy them.  Hell, I didn't even know there were such football text sims left around until a few years ago, when I had to actively go find them.  I knew the soccer/footie ones were popular in Europe, but knew nothing about the baseball and american football ones before then - and I'm a huge strategy game addict!


Crit'd by Wall Of Text!